So sometimes governments make the wrong decisions and sometimes the people make the wrong decisions.

That is the way it works in life. Both decisions are made by people. People are fallible.
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"If properly set up, they are just one means by which people can gain more "local" or "provincial" control over government that has come increasingly under the sway of a global ELITE of multinationals and monopolies."

Ah yes, those dreaded elites.

Elite = the best or most skilled members of a group.

So we move from one elite to another elite. One elite lobbies those who have been voted into power, the other lobbies the voters.

In essence, we have a second election.

Perhaps the solution is to follow the USA system, 4 year terms, with half the house voted in every two years.

It is to laugh: "...Carole James, leader of the NDP, has stated that a referendum is a 'terrible way' to 'set tax policy,'..."

Campbell implemented the HST without letting the people have a say in it, WITHOUT a referendum!

James does not believe in a referendum on taxes, so she too would implement tax policy (new taxes, any taxes) WITHOUT allowing the people to have a say in it (referendum!) either!

It's either a Gordon probe up the rear end or a Carole probe!

Great! We are stuck between a rock and a hard place and I am beginning to wonder what all the griping and all the hubbub is all about!

Referendums (referenda) are loathed and feared by virtually all politicians, be they federal, provincial or municipal! Many politicians consider them to be a form of mob rule!

A good example is the local refusal to have a referendum on the addition of toxic fluoride to our municipal drinking water -
only here those who are concerned are ignored, ridiculed and practically run out of town.

Cheers! Enjoy the sunshine!

Great piece, Peter. One of your best.

The Referendum process is often used at the local level to enable taxes to be raised to pay for various needs. And while it's true to say that none of us like tax increases, a great many worthwhile projects do get the green light from the voter, even though there's a tax increase attached.

The problem with using this same process at the upper levels of government is that a great amount of our taxes do NOT even go primarilly to provide some needed or desired purpose. But are collected solely to enable the otherwise unserviceable, and unamortizable, total 'floating' debts of the private sector to become the unrepayable, but not unserviceable, 'fixed' debts of the nation.

Until this is realised, and rectified, we will not ever be able to make much real progress in meaningfully reversing the constant increases in taxes.

socredible ..... "the constant increases in taxes"

How has the total tax implemented by the Province changed over the past
1. 10 years? (2000 to 2009 inclusive)
2. 20 years? (1991 to 2000 inclusive)

Once we get those figures, we can talk about the veracity of the "constant increase in taxes" in relation to the population change and in some sort of "constant dollar" measure.

Until we have that information, I am afraid that I regard your statement as hyperbole.

We are not suppose to be slaves to anyone! We collectively put money into the pot for needed services that help the country, province and municipalities. This is a good thing until corruption is added to the picture. We have too many high paid pigs at the ever growing government trough at all levels. Money is being eaten up by their wages, over the top pensions and expense accounts. And then you have all the waste that government spends on office renovations and supplies. Best of everything! Most expensive furniture, lighting, security and on and on and on.

For example, our best man has worked for forestry for 40 years. He is so frustrated at the waste in his department alone. 7 people do the job that he and one other did ten years ago. He sits for hours every day with nothing to do. A cousin is a accountant who works for Indian Affairs and she also has many stories of waste at the top which causes barely a trickle actually getting to the people. We have an over bloated government sucking up the money which should have gone to the services we all want and need. Especially for the seniors, poor and students yet these services are bottom of the barrel due to cuts.

The problem is not too much money is needed for medical, education and seniors. It is that the money is being sucked up by the over bloated government. Someone needs to go into all levels and stop the waste! There will never be enough money and taxes will continuously be raised because government is not willing to cut back . We may spend half of our tax money on medical but I am willing to be that just is much is going to the wages, retirement and expense accounts of those who have no care at how much they spend because it's not their money. It is easy to spend others money than your own. And then there is the raising of everything else like food, heating and shelter.

We are slaves to government! We are getting less and less of our hard earned money and they will keep taking until we say NO MORE! With all the fees and taxes in everything we do we are losing close to 60% of our money. Most of the ever shrinking tax payer group has no savings and lives from pay cheque to pay cheque. Most of us have no pension yet the people who we employ have the best. Does no one else see something wrong with this picture? We need to overhaul our corrupt and greedy government and soon. It has been out of control for far too long! As employers we need to oversee our business.

We'll see you all at Pat Bell's MLA constituency office this coming Saturday, September 25 at 10 a.m. for the rally to Fight HST.

Bring friends and your voices, pots and pans... Let's make some noise... Let's be heard... I'm coming from the Robson Valley. Surely a good turnout can be mustered from the Hub City. Phone your friends. Think participatory democracy.

Looking forward...
John Grogan

Many people don't differentiate between taxes and they don't even know what constitutes a tax. They lump income tax in with their property taxes and city utilities and if hydro or ICBC rates go up, they complain that these are "hidden taxes". In short, many people don't have a clue what they are talking about. Talk to 10 people on the street and 9 of them will swear that their income taxes have been climbing every year for decades, even though they have gone down significantly in that time period.

The article asks the question:

"Why shouldn't citizens have the final say on major tax legislation, using the mechanism of a referendum?"

Perhaps the reason is because there are loads of citizens out there who are just plain stupid. No offense to anyone, but I don't particulary want tax policy to be dicated by people who think they are paying more tax on a computer since the introduction of HST than what they were before.

Sell your real estate so you don't need to worry about property taxes. Quit work so you don't need to worry about income taxes. Sell everything you have so you don't need to buy insurance. When you have no debt, you don't need the bankers either. When you have used up all the rest, go back to government and ask them to replace all you used to have. You will now qualify for all of the benefits that someone else pays for. (Used to be you)

The less expenses you have, the less income you need. So, you would be enjoying the benefits of our wonderful country without having to pay for it. Isn't that why folks come here from other countries?

I have always been of the thought that Elections BC should be holding electronic referendums online through their web site. Non binding referendums that accurately poll the will of the people through a system of verified citizens registered to vote in BC having a pin access similar to online banking that allows for concerned citizens to use their vote to participate in our democratic process.

If we have random telephone polls illuminating our policy, then why not registered citizen voters?

The politicians then would have an accurate sounding board in which to judge their parliamentary votes against, either by riding, by region, or as a province as a whole. Gross discrepancies would then require explanation by the MLA as to why they choose to go their own way on a vote.

We have the technology, and in a democracy we would be using this technology to increase voter participation in the process of informing themselves of the issues and having their opinions recorded.

There is no legitimate reason why Elections BC couldn't itself facilitate democracy in BC.

There may be a few people out there who are stupid. Most people are not. Why are they often poorly informed? Probably because they either never cared about these matters, or because they simply don't care anymore, or because they would care if they were not so darn busy working and trying to make the money to make ends meet.

If elections B.C. would hold an online referendum and all the above people would not participate how valid would the result be?

Far too few of the eligible voters bother to vote on election day - it takes only a few minutes so why do they not show up?

The most sophisticated electronic information efforts will fail if people just don't give a hoot.

The "constant increase in taxes" has to include ALL taxes (forced payments of all types) exacted by government.

To try to say that taxes, in total, for the average individual British Columbian haven't increased, because some may have actually decreased, is akin to the way the politicians play the numbers game.

You know, where the NDP accuses the Liberals of underfunding healthcare, say, and the Liberals respond by saying they've increased healthcare spending each year they've been in office. This gets us nowhere.

What's needed is NOT to simply look at the "figures" themselves, but to realise what the "figures" are supposed to be a reflection of as regards the "phyical" realities they purportedly represent ~ ultimately those of overall production that has occured, potential production that actually could occur with the plant, resources, knowledge, etc. that's already existent and in place, and consumption.

Wow socredible ... you sound like a politician!!!!!

How not to answer a question.

Why do you not say it is too difficult to answer? There are too many parameters.

Just say you feel they have been increasing constantly ....

I'll say that they have been up and down and they may have increased and they may have decreased. We'll just agree to disagree.

Or we can set some sort of measuring stick we both agree on.

1. ALL taxes no matter who pays them and to whom - corporate, personal, property, VAT, user fees, etc. etc.

2. total amount

3. total rate - total tax/GDP? or some other such rate.

You tell me. But opting out is a bad move since you cannot even try to prove your statement except with some bafflegab gibberish.

Gus:- "Or we can set some sort of measuring stick we both agree on."
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Maybe we could try this. Has the total dollar figure of annual BC Budgets increased or decreased yearly over the periods you first mentioned? Has there been any period when the Budget was smaller than it was the year previously?

If it has increased, has it increased proportionally to changes in our population over those same periods? Or more, or less? Now you could adjust that for inflation, to get a constant dollar value, and see if we are spending, and therefore, supposedly collecting in taxes, more or less per British Columbian over those periods.

Prince George:-"Far too few of the eligible voters bother to vote on election day - it takes only a few minutes so why do they not show up?"
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Likely for a variety of reasons, but I believe one of the most prevelant is the feeling we are only being asked to make a choice of 'method' (in choosing the people who will administer some unchangeable, universal policy, and how they propose to do it), rather than whether or not we agree with the policy itself.

In that latter, we get no say.

This reduces our general elections to the status of a beauty contest at worst, and at best to a process about as predictable as asking everyone what's so great about Canada, and then providing them with a list of, say, ten answers, pre-determined elsewhere, from which they can only choose. It's not very difficult to predict just how that'll come out.

Many people, I think, feel that they are simply being used to give legitimacy to a process over which they've absolutely no control whatsoever. And so they simply refuse to participate.

It would be very interesting to see if the attendence at the polls improved if there was "None of the Above" printed at the bottom of every ballot, with a place for your "x" beside it, and fully countable as a ballot. My guess is that it would, and would also make those vying for office much more 'representative' of their constituents.