To anyone who is interested, if you click on the following link and scroll down to page 4 you can find the "Alternative Approval Process Electoral Response Form" for the RCMP building.

http://city2.princegeorge.ca/PublicSafety/RCMPFacility/Documents/Staff%20Report%20to%20Council-%20Nov.%2015.pdf

The following is taken from page 4 of the above link:

Please mail or deliver your completed form to: City of Prince George, Attention: Corporate Officer,
5th Floor, 1100 Patricia Blvd., Prince George, BC V2L 3V9

Responses must be received by the Corporate Officer no later than 5:00 p.m. on December 30, 2010.

Elector Response Forms may not be submitted by e-mail or facsimile.

Kudos to Bill Bennett for standing up to the dictator and his cronies.
You see how they all band together to defend one another and try to make Bill look like he's insane. Shame on Bond and Bell for your part. Whos that other guy? Oh ya that Rustad guy. What does he do again?

Am I the only one that has nothing but problems with the swimsuit page? It's so bad that I don't even bother to go take a look any longer.

Anyone else having nothing but problems on that page?

Trivial, I know, but it would be nice if it worked properly.

Swimsuits?

I have trouble with the recipes page. Never anything I like.

I do not even dare go to the exercise page.

I think someone should do an article about organizations that employ people at minimum wage.

"Also kudos to the Prince George Citizen for running an outstanding article last Tuesday about the salaries the people who work for the City of Prince George make."

Huh????

Based on the Financial Information Act, it is a requirement to prepare the information within 6 months of the fiscal year end and have it available to the public.

The Act
http://www.bclaws.ca/EPLibraries/bclaws_new/document/ID/freeside/00_96140_01

That means that the document should have been available in July. It is now mid November.

It took 4.5 months to write an article? An article that provides no more information than is available to anyone with access to a computer and the internet and others who want to walk in to City Hall and ask to see it?

WOW!!!!!!!! What reporting prowess!!!!!

http://www.city.pg.bc.ca/city_services/finance/statements

Enjoy ..... while you are at it, have a look at who gets City contracts and how much they get.

Team Russia disgraced themselves tonight! After they won the game, they went out on our town and harassed our waitresses, physically and verbally! They were touching inappropriately and tried to hit women. Good thing Prince Georgians have some respect for women and tried to stop these ignorant goofs... Needless to say but you will never see me cheer for a Russian team again!!!!

If you dont believe in minimum wage but you shop at places like Walmart and McDonalds then you are a hipocrite. I dont think that enough people understand that a number of products we buy are the result of low paid labour either domestically or abroad. Idealism isnt cheap, talking crap on a public chat board while shopping at Walmart and McDonalds is.

Cool!..going for dinner tonight...normally,we would do Winstons,but that's getting old even though it is usually quite good!
Need a place where the sgrub is good and has some atmosphere?
Suggestions anyone?

I must not be the only one to be annoyed by moving ads on this site. Why do I have to watch a car wreck in progress every time I log on? Wouldn't a stationary advertisment be less intrusive?
And, no, I do NOT want to click above and install an unknown programme onto my computer.

I agree the ads are very annoying SummerSoul,but if it wasn't for the advertizing revenue they bring in to Opinion 250,we wouldn't be having this conversation.
I just ignore them.

I was disgusted to see the front page of the Citizen on Tuesday morn. How tactless to run the names and wages of the city employees. I logged on to the city web site and looked up the collective aggreement that many of the employees work under, and saw numbers that were drastically less. What was the reason for such high numbers in 2009? Obviously there is some reason. Perhaps our local "tabloid" reporters could tell the other side of the story so the rest of us could make fair judgement. Also not suprised to see that the writers name was "citizen staff". I wouldn't want my name on such a tasteless article either. This reaked of Mr. Nicholson's style of reporting the news, roll a grenade into a room and stand back and see what happens hey Hugh! Get some class.

You "Windows People" do have Problems. I don't see any ADS, I must be the only one not using Windows, no blue Screen of Death, no Viruses and it's all free, so it's not Apple. A Trip to your great Library in the Computer Section will show you how, yes it's a bit of Work , I have the Time to make it work for me, just watch the Ads I want to see.

The wage differences come from the retro pay of the new collective agreement and the fact that this is probally pgfds biggest overtime year in history. I hate how the citizen writes articles just to get a response out o the readers. They just try to incite contempt in the masses. Seriously citizen, go write something about a bat boy, or a celebrity who is going to give birth to a pickle, if you are going to leave out crutial parts of the story and mislead everyone....

I have never met a family man who had to work for minimum wages. Where are these minimum wage "main bread winners" who are trying to support a family??????

The only ones making minimum wages are students at part time jobs.....a learning experience for them......
What 's wrong with THAT ????

I remember that my dad had to PAY a boss to work and get job experience.....

Mislead? ......

People worked???

People got paid????

Everyone is under the same rules?????

The worst thing, and then aslo the best thing from another point of view, is that some people working for the City did not realize how much others are making; they look at their own pay; they look at what the others are actually doing; then they will see that if some of those are getting that kind of money, they feel they should be getting the same or more.

If there is anything that is a morale killer, it is not letting people know the salary scales at a workplace.

This disclosure is nothing new. I believe this is the third year.

We sent the article to a family member who is a fireman in a large city in the USA. They could not believe how high the pay is here.

I just heard a newscast on the radio that quoted Shirley Bond defending Campbell's decision to rescind his promised %15 tax cut. Her rationale was that the citizens of BC need to have an opportunity for input into this decision. I was left shaking my head and wondering since when have the Liberals started consulting the taxpayers of this Province about the decisions they make? I wonder if Gordo and the gang have picked up a pamphlet that describes the characteristics of a democratic government?

"I was disgusted to see the front page of the Citizen on Tuesday morn. How tactless to run the names and wages of the city employees" - whats the matter? Are you one of the overpaid useless twits that work for the city or something? I don't give a crap how good a typist you are, $100,000.00/yr is way to much for a glorified secretary. And you can bet a lot of those postitions are not because of thier experience or education, but rather who they knew and blew to get those jobs. Just check out all the same last names on thier list of employees and you get the message. Not to mention all the inlaws and outlaws that get jobs because daddy in law or mommy in law works for the city in a supervisory position.

"Blue Screen of Death" - what century are you in? I havent seen one of those since Windows 95.

"I remember that my dad had to PAY a boss to work and get job experience....." - then your dad was stupid. Possibly volunteering in order to get experience I can understand, but PAY someone in order to WORK for them, is just plain lunacy.

Firefighter pay scales throughout the USA.
http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Fire_Fighter/Salary

I see were Northern Health want people to return the radon gas testing units they have purchased. If radon gas is an issue why does one have to purchase a unit?

Does anyone have information on test results and hotspots for radon gas in the city.

Here is some radon information,

In B.C., provincial health officials and the University of B.C. searched for high radon levels around the province 10 to 15 years ago. Those studies identified the Clearwater, Barriere, and Castlegar areas as hot spots, with elevated readings also found in Prince George, the Okanagan, and elsewhere in the Kootenays.

http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=0b2b8d71-2080-417f-985b-349732fb9b1f&k=1512

Dangerous stuff and we have to pay for our own testing!

I think publishing those salaries was fine. I have no problem with firefighters bringing in that kind of money, especially since a big chunk of it is likely OT, however, those managers are another story. Why such a huge increase in such a short period of time? I'm sorry, but with my taxes going up every single year, in every single area, I have a right to see where that money is going and it does not impress me to see such an influx of money going towards more administration when the city is talking about cutting services in something as basic as snow removal.

Oh and as far as minimum wage at Wal Mart, I know a kid who works there and started at $10/hr. Not a huge amount, but not minimum wage.

"I just heard a newscast on the radio that quoted Shirley Bond defending Campbell's decision to rescind his promised %15 tax cut. Her rationale was that the citizens of BC need to have an opportunity for input into this decision."

Interesting comment. If that is what she said, there is a slight difference between that and what the news report originally stated.

Here is one report:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/british-columbia/bc-liberals-self-destructing-as-campbell-scuttles-tax-cut/article1802976

It has been reported that it was not Campbell's decision. It was the decision of the Executive Council. Campbell delivered the message.

The obvious question I have is why the change of heart by the Executive Council?

Why is the group of ministers so dependent on the leader of the pack?

Was the group not part of the decsion making process when the proposed tax credit was first announced?

Why does the change of the guard in the leader position alter everything? It does not become law until voted as such by Parliament.

Why does it have to change at all?

Why not just leave it not only for the next leader and premier, but also for the new cabinet? After all, when Campbell takes a walk to government house and officially resigns, the whole cabinet automatically is removed from their position ...

So is that the real reason why the current cabinet does not want him to take that walk, they may be repositioned and seats filled with new faces once more?

I would hate to see that. We need to keep the place going with a bit more of a steady hand than we might find otherwise.

"especially since a big chunk of it is likely OT"

So tell me, why is an organization run with that amount of overtime? Sounds like poor management to me.

As a property owner in PG I think I have a right to see how much I am paying the people who work for me. Thanks Gus for the link. I have reviewed theis list for a few years now and am always surprised by how high the incomes are. 23% earning more than $75,000 in 2009 and I am guessing that there are many part time, maternity leave and seasonal workers on the list so I would not be surprised if the average income is $70,000 per year at City Hall. I have been self employed for a long time so I am not in the loop regarding wages and salaries. Is $70,000 really the average income for a decent job these days?

I agree regarding the OT gus. There is a problem somewhere.

"Blue Screen of Death" is just a Matter of speak, it may mean many things like freeze ,very slow responding and a host of other things, if you are happy with your Operating System, don't change or keep on feeding Bill, from 95,98,2000,XP,Vista and Windows7 he is happy to sell you a new Version every few Years, but then again it's only Money.

Some people seem to think that as soon as winter comes it's ok to drive in both lanes at once. Am I the only one that finds this stupidity annoying? (Probably)

Penticton has been laying off some people to cut costs. Some, if not all, of the guidance for that has come from the Core Services report that was prepared for them at a cost of $70,000. If there are savings to be had, that might be money well spent.

http://www.penticton.ca/events/2010/03/2010-03-05-CoreServicesReport.pdf

From the report summary:

The Core Services Review has identified several opportunities for cost reduction, service improvement and increased accountability. This include opportunities to:

1. Reduce discretionary services,

2. Reduce the number of management positions

3. Pursue new models for service delivery that reduce overall service costs

4. Restructure the organization to increase accountability and effectiveness

5. Introduce new management tools to enable more effective city planning and performance management

"Reducing costs will require the City to make decisions that will likely be contentious. However, there is a clear imperative for the City to act now.

"IF THE CITY DOES NOT DEMONSTRATE A COMMITMENT TO CONTROL AND MANAGE COSTS NOW, AND OVER THE NEXT 10-20 YEARS, IT WILL MERELY DEFER THE DIFFICULT DECISIONS TO A LATER TIME WHEN THE CITY MAY NOT HAVE THE SAME CAPACITY TO DEAL WITH THE CONSEQUENCES."

Ain't that the truth!!

Weaksauce you are not alone in that thought. It is even more annoying when said vehicle is a 4X4 tank all shined up. I drive a crappy little truck and somehow manage to drive in my lane even when it means pushing a little snow.

As for the city, the very fact that ace-plagarizer-truth-fabricator, Mike Davis tried to put the spin on the deal. Yes that Mike Davis, he of $94,000/year.

As was once posted on 250(I believe) quite some time ago, there is a site that you can search all public sector salaries.

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/public-sector-salaries/advanced-search.html

Radon: About 25 years ago (or more), UBC asked for homeowners to volunteer for Radon studies in PG. I wrote in and got the two collectors - one for upstairs, and the other downstairs. They sat pinned on the walls for a year and then I sent them in for analysis. They sent me back a report, which I have somewhere. The results were negative. I live in the Hart Highlands - just an FYI.

verballable ... that is only for the par the Sun thinks is the important part of BC. Forget about up Island or the Interior. We do not exist.

Hey I remember a few years ago when fuel was really high. The city went and bought a bunch of fuel efficiant cars with better emmissions.Then fuel went back down. Thats ok, the taxpayer gets to pay for all the new vehicles.

PRINCE GEORGE CITIZEN
the citizen says i will have my paper by 7 am.
2 thursdays in a row no paper
when you phone they are experiencing problems.
press down, carriers out of town etc. my carrier tells me the citizen has told him the paper on thursday till christmas will be late.
appears they oversell the advertising and have to manually put it together.
is this not the same advertisers who forced a 7 am delivery
cmon guys if you cant fulfill your pomise go back to afternoon delivery anad give the kids a chance to make a buck
or maybe a bunch of people should quit the paper and dedicate their time to 250 where they get news up to date

onemansthoughts "the fuel went back down"??? Are fuel admissions less important now? Come on the city is an easy target I am sure you can find something better to hit them with.

"Then fuel went back down"

Down???? ... $1.07.9 is down eh? ... LOL

Nothing new except that Iran is another week closer to getting it's ass kicked. Either by Israel or the "Great Satan". Then watch the economy spin! Should be interesting. By the way, "FREE TIBET".

Concerning the "temporary now non-existent" tax break that was contemplated and announced hastily, giving it a little thought made me think it would be a waste of time and not help our economy as far as I am concerned. If my government let me keep more of my hard earned money the first thing I would do is pay down my existing consumer debt/mortgage. That would not help the economy nor would it create jobs. So why bother? Consumer debt. PG debt. Provincial (and now Olympic debt) and finally our national debt. Lotsa debt!

Andyfreeze We like Ric's Grill. Cozy booths, great food, good service. Then there is always my standby, the Achillion especially if you need your garlic fix...yummm Hummus. Also great souvlaki and a decent atmosphere.

I think it would be funny for everyone to post their salary and job title and without having any clue about your job, what you do on a day to day basis, the education required, what comparable jobs elsewhere pay, etc., we can all complain about how you too are paid too much and how the products we buy cost more as a result.

Example number one, say Mr. X is a salesman at Northland Dodge and he makes $95,000 per year. I can then complain about how Chrysler vehicles are overpriced by at least 30-40% because of the commission costs burried into the price of the vehicles that the salesmen clearly don't deserve.

Example number two, say Mrs. Y is a news reporter and she gets paid $55,000 per year to read from a cue card and smile nice for the camera. The TV station has to make money from ads and they have to charge enough for these ads to offset the costs of their staff. These rates are obviously paid by the advertisers, and they in turn have to recover the cost of the ads when they sell their stuff. So, if I think the reporter is grossly overpaid, can I complain that I'm be charged too much by the local hardware store since they advertise on the said news?

Just wondering why private industry is off limits when it comes to knowing what people make? Afterall, I figure that since the majority of my income goes to private sector organizations (the banks, grocery stores, clothing outlets, etc.), shouldn't I be more concerned about what they make and whether it's "fair" in my eye?

I think that's a reasonable trade off :)

paying down personal debt is good for the overall economy. reduces risk, makes capital available for others, increases long term income. Bank of Canada has said personal debt is one of its biggest concerns moving forward.

Thanks hood rich. Now I know why I get all those loan offers in the mail. They all must be enemies of the BoC. I think I will go out and borrow money to get out of debt. That should work.

The thing that offended me most in Tuesday's Citizen editorial re: City Wages was that they claim to have the best investigative journalists in BC, and sometimes Canada...not quite. There are better journalists on this site and they don't get paid.

I don't know NMG, I see the difference being that you have a choice where you shop and what you buy. If I feel I am being overcharged at a store, I will not shop at that store. Simple as that. As far as our taxes go, we don't have a choice. Our taxes keep going up, the salaries of excessive administrators at the city go up, yet our services go down.

I am with NMG and have thought that way for a long time.

Taxpayers are also payers of "competitive" products and services. Everything we pay for has all costs built in. When they don't, they either sell illegal drugs on the side or will go out of business eventually. And we pay for that as well since our interest rates will go up and our insurance fees will go up.

Nothin' is for nothin'.

Sure you can buy milk at Costco, or Superstore, or Save-on-Foods, or Mr. G ... or wherever. They'll run competition on some of those staple items, and they will get you on some other items that you will buy on a whim or you simply do not want to drive to another place to save 15 cents because it is not worth the gas or bother.

Don't like the taxes? Move to a cheaper house; don't go swimming; don't frequent parks, baseball fields, trails, etc. because it will show demand which means more of those things will be built because of demand.

Protect your own house, install residential sprinkler systems, be more carefull with those activities that will cause fires, maintain your electrical systems, your sewer system, drive less on roads so that they deteriorate less.... etc. etc.

The collecdtion of YOUs out there are the actual cause of increasing costs because of your DEMANDS, DEMANDS, DEMANDS.

Last resort? Move to another city, another province, another country.

Bolivia is nice!!!! :-)

Just came back from Vancouver. A night out with the Construction Industry paying their respects to Premier Campbell, naming him "Builder of the Decade". What a great night for a great man. A great British Columbian.
Hard to believe that a guy who brings BC back from "Have Not" status to the Province that leads in economic development is having to resign. We have had it too good in BC and many people don't appreciate that. Think about that!! What part of having the best economy in Canada doesn't make sense?
Hang in there Carol James, the Liberals need you!

Andyfreeze, I recommend Mabuhay Asian Cuisine on 5th Avenue across from 5th Avenue Bowling Alley. It is a buffet and there is sometimes live entertainment. It is Filipino food and very delicious.

Posted by: weaksauce on November 19 2010 10:36 AM
"Some people seem to think that as soon as winter comes it's ok to drive in both lanes at once. Am I the only one that finds this stupidity annoying? (Probably)"

I'm with you there Weaksauce. People are turning two lanes going around curves into single lanes. Drivers need to dig deep for common sense. It also doesn't help when the city plows leave piles of snow in the wrong spots that block the lanes.

" Posted by: cincam on November 19 2010 3:25 PM
Just came back from Vancouver. A night out with the Construction Industry paying their respects to Premier Campbell, naming him "Builder of the Decade". What a great night for a great man. A great British Columbian.
Hard to believe that a guy who brings BC back from "Have Not" status to the Province that leads in economic development is having to resign. We have had it too good in BC and many people don't appreciate that. Think about that!! What part of having the best economy in Canada doesn't make sense?
Hang in there Carol James, the Liberals need you!"


Whats wrong, don't like having the bottomless taxpayer money pit having a lid installed?

Typical trough feeder!

So gus, you think that demanding that say, snow removal services are maintained is unreasonable? Oh yes, us taxpayers who have faced increase after increase are sooooo demanding. Such selfish creatures we are.
My property taxes have gone up by over $700 in the past 3 years. That is just one house in a city full of houses. Where is all of this money going? $700 extra dollars every year just from me. Forgive me for expecting to see snow ploughed and driveways cleared, rather than a huge pay increase for the manager that runs that department!
I have no problem paying taxes, if they are actually being put to good use.

No Dragonmaster, just a typical guy who appreciates making money by working hard and having some commonsense.

"So gus, you think that demanding that say, snow removal services are maintained is unreasonable?"

Nope .... "maintained" is the operative word.

Snow removal is near and dear to my heart. In fact, it is my pet project that should be improved. I suspect we could do a better job for the same amount of operating dollars if we got the right equipment.

Cincam, so supporting Gordo and his band of sheep is common sense. I think not.

Anyone that backs the type of BS Campbell and his cronies have done to the people of this province are part of the problem....sucking the money out of the pockets of the middle class and blowing it into the bank accounts of business owners is wrong cincam. How can you sleep at night knowing your neighbours and relatives are working their butt's off just to have their hard earned peanut wages scammed from them and handed over to the likes of you?

The days of the Liberal in BC are done!

The subject is debt; it needs to go away.

Debt was the market’s bête noire, this week and last. In Europe, it snatched up the Irish and carried them off. Then it attacked the Portuguese. Everyone knew the periphery states were going broke. Their cost of borrowing soared. Then, when the search parties reached them, the Irish turned them away. Debt has it usefulness, the Irish figured. They held out until Wednesday, apparently negotiating terms of their own rescue.

In America, municipal debt collapsed by nearly 10% over the last two weeks. It became more and more obvious that state and local governments were headed for default too. California might get a bailout…but California, like Ireland, is a sovereign state. It could refuse. Borrowers worried that Californians and the Irish might prefer to default like honest incompetents rather than submit to the rescuers’ demands.

Debt is underrated. For one thing, it is more reliable than asset values. The crisis of ’07–’09 wiped out about a third of the world’s equity and property wealth. And it disappeared 7 million jobs in America alone. But debt survived intact. In terms of the cash flow needed to support it, debt actually grew larger.

Central planners can make a recession appear to go away. With enough hot money, they might warm up asset prices or soothe the swelling unemployment rate. But debt doesn’t cooperate. Neither monetary policy nor fiscal policy will make it go away. Debt demands honesty. The debtor has to fess up, admitting that he is a fool or a knave. Either he owns up to his mistake and defaults…or he cheats.

“With all due respect, US policy is clueless,” said German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schauble. “It’s not that the Americans haven’t pumped enough liquidity into the market. Now to say let’s pump more into the market is not going to solve their problem.”

The English speakers conveniently misunderstand the debt problem. The authorities worked hard not to see the debt crisis coming. They made their careers and reputations by not understanding it. Thousands of them work for governments and central banks…if they caught on to the problem now, they’d probably have to resign.

There is more of the article at the following link:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/bonner/bonner441.html

Government workers in BC get paid on average 35% more for doing the same job as the private sector. You can rest assured that they do not do 35% more work. Government workers have a good pension plan, holidays, and sick benefits. I suspect that they all also have a dental plan. They have to claim their benefit plan as income, but what the hell, when you are making the big bucks who cares.

Every department Government or Private,will over time expand. The difference is that private industry, will make adjustments over time and get rid of surplus employees. This is a rare occurence in Government.

Governments could over time complete 50% of the work assigned to them, and realistically downsize by 50% but this will never happen, mainly because they keep changing programs, computer and otherwise, changing and adding new rules and regulations, and generally spending most of thier time on job security projects.

Thats why in this town we have so many goofy projects, none of which would have gone forward with private money, because they can be discribed as **bogus** at best, however the Governments refer to them as state of the art projects, etc; etc; etc;

So we have a continuous series of ribbon cutting photo ops around the Counry highlighting less than stellar projects, with the attendent Governmet Cabinet Minister, Government employee, etc;

Never do you see the people who paid for it all. Ie; the taxpayer in these photo's. The Government Ministers, the Government departments, who's project is being built, and the fringe hanger on's are all on the Government payroll, or some sort of Government dole.

If it wasnt so pathetic it would be laughable. Government employees have morphed into a position where they are actually beginng to beleive that we work for them rather than the reverse.

Because of the continous increase in Government over the years which can also be discribed as a continous increase in non-productive labour, at some point the costs get so high, and the debt gets so high, that finally out of pure desperation, they have to bring out the axe and start chopping. This is happening all over Europe, and will be happening in Canada and the USA in the not to distant future.

The average working people, and business and industry cannot continue to support the huge number of Government workers who go through the pretense of working, but produce little.

At the end of the day, Government employees are hired to do the business of taxpayers, because taxpayers are to busy working to do this themselves. Thats why at one time they were referred to as Civil Servants. We the people are the Government, and Government workers work for us. The problem is, we have lost the means to control these people and their costs.

Its much like creating Frankenstein, and once the project it complete, you better get the hell out of the way or you will be destroyed.





Lets not loose sight of this simple truth.

"Thats why in this town we have so many goofy projects"

You mean like

1. the Sandman on HWY 16 West? Or

2. how about the Keg, that was going to be shutting down for 3 months.

3. oh, I know, the golf course whose Board is made up of local business people?

4. the Foodteller?

5. Tony Roma's .. located in 27 or so countries but failed in PG.

6. the Ramada restaurant renovations?

7. Starbucks on Ferry ... it took them a year before they shut down ....

8. Rona .... was coming here when? 10 years ago? Brand new building here, then there, then who knows where.

9. Olde Town Farms Market .. pulled up stakes overnight without letting anyone know.

10. remember Safeway? No go in PG anymore.

11. Sawmills? How many? Too many.

12. Chopstick factory ... now there was a great one.

13. The Rocky mountaineer .. Vancouver to PG ... oops, no ... PG was dropped for Quesnel

Those were all the real smart people, the hard workers, the ones that had success in their eyes every morning they got up to go to work.

Has anyone ever compared the pay of the technical people and executives at Canfor or Canfor Pulp with those of the City? You might be in for a big surprise if they were to publish their list of those who earned more than $75,000 and $100,000 per year.

Let's treat the government operated programs and facilities the same as the private sector does their programs and facilities: "if it don't work, abandon it"

It is morning, and tongue is still in cheek .... :-)