If you pay property tax in Prince George, or have noted the bizarre issues in and around City Hall, you already knew this.
Recall Rogers!..and Munoz, and Skakun, and most of the other geniuses on Council.

Can't wait for the city hall spin on this one.

Given the big tax increase that will happen over the Winter games, RCMP station, community energy system, IPG, to name just a few. PG will certainly keep its at the head of the list of over spenders.

Crime capital of Canada, top of the list of cities over spending. We certainly have seen changes since Rodgers took control.

A Rob Ford is what we need.

The people of Prince George have been trying to tell them that, but thet don't see it or do not care. They keep saying 2 dollars here and 2 dollars there won't hurt we will not even notice it, well we do and the proof is there in the report.

Maybe if all the readers sent a copy of this article to the following address, City Hall might finally get it through their thick skulls that the average taxpayer wants them to get the reckless spending habits under control.

2011budget@city.pg.bc.ca

I agree with fair comment until you get to Skakun. I believe Councilor Brian Skakun to be honest and forthright. Remember he is the one that was instrumental in exposing the R.C.M.P. love scandle not that long ago. He was later denied aproval for legal assistance while other councilors readily recieve assistance when they make a misstep in the law. Besides it is plain that the R.C.M.P. officers involved were in conflict with good conduct of a police officer. City council under took action to sweep the affair under the rug.

Start cutting, give the Games to who ever wants them , no new Cop Shop let Harper pay out of is Afghan Fund, let all the Art Lover build there own new Digs. Start now ,save Money.

Tax Revolt?

Thank you the Citizen and Ben for getting this out there. We need to keep this fire going, we need the city to be aware of the fact that they can not keep spending money like it grows on trees.

I live in Vernon now and as I have said before in other posts property taxes for me are now approx. half of what I paid in PG.

I purchased a BRAND NEW house here in Vernon with only the money I got from the sale of my home in PG. It's cheaper to heat, cheaper for property taxes, and if you have a cool basement that you can use in the summer it's also very reasonable for air conditioning.

Over all, we are actually SAVING money over living in PG.

You can throw all the comparisons or graphs or stats at me that you want because it's not gonna matter now. The CFIB now backs up my original theory with facts. I'll say it again (just like I did previously on this site)... it's cheaper to live in Vernon and I'm actually banking the extra money I was paying in PG (it goes straight to my RRSP's).

Sunshine tax? Not a chance...

Maybe we should see a rollback on the high paid city staff... Anybody over $90K -10% over 125= 15% cut in wages 150=25% and so on. Perhaps Mr Bates should be looking for another job if this is the way the city is run? Its tough for council to run the city when the information is coming from the bureaucracy.

Who needed a report to tell us this.....all I have to do is look at my tax bill and compare it to friends and family in other cities. We are getting ripped off in PG. We don't have any better services or amenitiies than other cities.

Don't use the BS of snow removal, because we have way less snow than we used to but the budget for snow isn't less.

When everyone else was getting laid off or getting their wages cut the city was creating new positions and giving raises. Maybe their new community liason officer could tell city council how out of touch they are with the masses!

"Can't wait for the city hall spin on this one." I think I can predict it! The following link is a letter sent from the City Manager of Kelowna to the CFIB in response to their report last year. http://www.city.kelowna.bc.ca/CityPage/Docs/PDFs//Communications/2010-01-06_CFIB_letter.pdf It’s almost spot on to what we keep hearing from PG Council. Give it a week and PG will be sending something similar.

Lets have another STUDY!!too study the study..make sense!!say Heehaw!

What is it that ppl got against Skakun,he brings to lite the crap going on in this crappy place and he gets villifed for this.Run for Mayor Brian you got my vote!
Dan the one term wonder,C U .

My family was just discussing yesterday how our retirement community will not likely be Prince George. It's just not affordable. After 30+ years of living here it's sad that we won't stay. I emailed the Mayor this morning and told him so.

The bellying up at the trough at City Hall along with the attitude of spending it all and more is just sickening. Some of us had high hopes that Dan Rogers could handle the job but it's obvious he cannot.

I think PG residents may find themselves on a "tax revolt" road by way of making huge changes at the next municipal elections. I suggest the Mayor and Council lower the boom at City Hall departments and make them find cost saving measures and soon. We as homeowners are sick of the waste of our tax paying dollars.

I've seen snow removal trucks being driven around the city when there's not a flake of snow. Why are they not parked in the works yard until they are required? I say this as this waste is just one example that is so visible on our streets.

Mayor Rogers and Council either make some changes or the residents of Prince George will.

Here is the actual report: http://www.cfib-fcei.ca/cfib-documents/rr3222.pdf On page 8 there is an interesting graph that illustrates the spending trend of Prince George between 2000 and 2008. I find it interesting because there are distinct time periods in which spending increased dramatically, specifically 2005-2006 & 2007-2008. I would like to see how the decisions of the City (both Council & administration) compare to the timeline provided in the report. Apparently the City’s spending was on par with population and inflation growth until 2004. What happened to create such a large gap within 4 years (2004-2008)?

What happened to create such a large gap within 4 years (2004-2008)?

We got Bates. The wonder from the Reginal District and friend of kinsley.
Cheers

"What is it that ppl got against Skakun,he brings to lite the crap going on in this crappy place and he gets villifed for this"

It's because there are so many people in positions of power that have things to hide. They don't like their backroom deals becoming public knowledge.

Bates came in in late 2006 or early 2007. Goerge Paul was City Manager for the 2006 financial plan.

This is the same as last yer. It is over a 9 year period - 2000 to 2008 inclusive. Last year's was from 2000 to 2007. We saw the results last year.

So who expected any different? One year, even if we had no increase in spending or a minimal increase in spending would not have changed the facts presented in the so called "study".

We are getting all upset once more over the same thing. Get over it. We have a drop in population and we have the same sized city to operate. The same lengths of of streets, the same air quality issues, the same parks, the same snowfalls, the same house fires to respond to, the same heart attacks to respond to, the same crimes to deal with, the same homeless ......

No wait, I got that all wrong .... we have increased crimes to deal we are importing them from other cities since the criminals are exapnding their territory; we decided to not borrow money to deal with potholes put add that money to current accounts; we borrowed borrowed money to buy the gas distribution network with the idea that the user charges will be a money maker as the capital is paid down; we had two winter floods in that period; we have a municipal airport; we have a city that is spread over hell's half acre due to the wrong headed thinking of past and current council's that keep on butting heads with the OCP and changing it at the first request of investors; and on and on.

But, the main thing that this study does is it does not compare apples to apples. Cities of all shapes and sizes as well as funding sources are thrown into the mix.

So, unlike others on here, I do not have to wait on the spin from Coucnil to offset the spin from this federation of whatever. I have a pretty good idea of why we are at the top of the list and it has partially to do with what everyone on here is all about, but only partially.

BTW, the average family in PG no longer is a family of 4. It is a family of 2.6 or so. For the family of 4 that lives in a residence that pays property taxes to the city, as well as utilities, they pay less per person than the average family living in the same type of residence.

Want me to spin that a bit? That means that the young folks and the old folks that have no kids anymore, or brothers or sisters, or moms and dads living with them are actually subsidizing the family with children and extended families living under one roof, with the exception of the user fees paid for city facilities.

How does that work for spin?

So, Surrey, with a a true average family hovering between 3 and 4, should be on the low end of how much money it costs to operate the city since they are more efficient by the very nature of the way it is calculated.

I have no problems throwing in a $100 to starting a Prince George tax payers association. It becomes an association with a mandate to keep the taxes frozen to 2010 level for the next year. Than adjust it to 75% of the CPI.

This will let our income catch up to taxation. If it means going without some amenities, so be it.

The performing Arts Center. I know we owe this to the community, but our city just can not afford it.

The PAC will cost 52 million dollars with a debt servicing cost of no less than $3 million dollars. The operation of the theatre will likely have another bill of 3 million dollars a year to heat it, clean it, manage it, and staff it.

That is 6 million dollars a year, 500,000 dollars a month. This will mean 20,000 customers contributing $25 every month to see a performance. Thus the tickets will be $65 to $80 perfomances. It simply is not self sustainable. Perfect example, TNW, they are barely making ends meet, and need to come up with gimmicks to keep it a float.

We have 800 seat theatre at Vanier Hall. I don't know who owns it, it has parking at night time. We would be better off, paying the SD $8 million dollars, build a Drama room with seating for 250, and more pave pariking. Then offer to pay the school district $250,000 a year to maintain Vanier hall, and the hiring staff of $200,000 to operate it as a community theatre.

Municipal vehicles like sand trucks that drive around sanding intersections a few days before it snows do it to "put the hours on". Most city vehicles like large trucks have hour gauges installed. Same with loaders and graders. These gauges are also used to keep maintenance records. Like they're gonna check the odometer in a backhoe? IMO they do that to justify their budget. As you should know that when it comes to any government dept. that has a budget, that which you don't spend in yer fiscal year gets deducted from the next years budget. Using the logic that if you only spend X dollars that is all that is really needed the following year. Convince me otherwise. I await hizzoners rebuttal to this news item.

"TNW, they are barely making ends meet, and need to come up with gimmicks to keep it a float."

Gimmicks? The have been getting some $110,000 + from the city over a three year period and they want more. Not a gimmick at all.

They just need to raise thier tickets form some $20 to $25/seat and they will be self sufficient. Beats me why they can't do that. Surely they will not lose that many customers. People in this town keep having enough money to bring big name stars to the CN Centre and paying $50 to over $100 per seat.

I thnk we are seeing the haves and have nots grwoing further apart in this city like everywhere else in North America and it may very well be that the have nots who are dominating the posts on this site. I think that is actually much of the "problem."

Just saw Dan on the local news blaming everthing in infrastucture costs. No mention of the overspent cop shop. No mention of the unneeded heating plant. I can go on but everyone already nows the issues. Dan wake up!

Many of these small, natural-resource and heavy-industry base communities are experiencing economic hard times and their local economies are in transition. IN SOME CASES, THEY HAVE EXPERIENCED NEGATIVE POPULATION GROWTH. (that is the understatement of the year, ain’t it?)

While this is understandably disruptive to the community, municipal officials still have to ensure that municipal operating budgets are on a sustainable path, and that all taxpayers receive value-for-money. IF THEY ARE SERVING FEWER RESIDENTS, PRESUMABLY OPERATING SPENDING SHOULD ADJUST DOWN ACCORDINGLY. I would like them to operate a city under those conditions. They have no clue!!!

Here is the way the top 10 “unsustainable” cities look if they had operated as the fesreation thinks they ought to have been operating. The first figure shown for each is the money a family of 4 would have saved according to their calculations. The second figure is how much they would have saved compared to a family of 4 living in Vancouver. The final number is the placing of the community on the sustainability list.

Based on those numbers, the correlation with sustainability and how much a family of 4 could have saved is tenuous at best. To me, that shows the material presented is not supported by quality indicators. They need to go hunt for some other indicators to make the study credible.

penticton $2,361 $1,327 2
langford $1,674 $640 3
west van $1,588 $554 5
prince george $1,464 $430 1
north van district $1,359 $325 4
north van city $1,326 $292 6
victoria $1,270 $236 14
kelowna $1,244 $210 20
vernon $1,070 $36 7
vancouver $1,034 ------ 21

newtechguy - what's the snow removal budget in Vernon?

Sorry ... I neglected to say that the first two paragraphs above are quoted from the report

Vernon? Silver Star pays the City to haul snow up to the hill. It is a commodity there ... :-)

ALTERNATIVE APPROVAL PROCESS ELECTOR RESPONSE FORM, BYLAW NO. 8316

I, THE UNDERSIGNED HEREBY INDICATE THAT I AM OPPOSED TO THE ADOPTION OF THE *RCMP BUILDING PROJECT LOAN AUTHORIZATION BYLAW NO. 8316, 2010, UNLESS IT IS APPROVED BY ASSENT OF THE ELECTORS.

The above is the opening line of the AAP. Anyone who wants to get the City to back off on their huge spending plans, needs to sign this petition and force the issue to a REFERENDUM

Copys can be obtained on the City Website www.city.pg.bc.ca, or picked up at City Hall.

To be effective 5237 signed petitions have to be into City Hall by 5pm December 30th.

The Bylaw is to allow the City to borrow an additional $13,821,000.00 to the $23 Million they already have approval for, to build a $38 Million dollar RCMP Building on 4th and Victoria.

If you want to try and conrol spending and be involved in slowing it down, then you need to sign this petition, and have as many people as you can get to also sign.

At least if we get the signatures we get a vote on the spending.

This process is put in place for taxpayers to have a say in spending. If we just ignore it, then in essence we are condoning the spending.

Time to take a stand. Bitching without taking any action. it just bitching.

First a minor point to make, then a question.
The article states that the budget grew by 2.01 times the rate of population growth and the rate of inflation, which they then state is 201%. This is not true, it is 101%, which makes me wonder what else they screwed up.
Now my question: In areas of town, say in the west where Home Depot, Walmart, Canuck Tire, et al. are located, the city had to spend large on infrastructure and this infrastructure then has to be maintained, yet there are few if any house there. Does this mean that the rest of the city's residents wind up on the tax dollar hook for these expenditures?

To understand why we top the list, look no further than the city's own Provisional Financial Plans 2010-2014. On their Core Focus Areas, "Fiscal Management" is #7 on the list just below "Increasing Civic Pride."

When you get to "Council's Priority Projects" it becomes even worse "Financial Sustainability" comes in at #12. I know that these are not necessarily listed in order of priority, it is a matter of perception.

It is time the the Mayor and Council along with city staff start to shift more of their focus on the bottom line. One example would be the $250,000.00 the city pays to Microsoft every year in license fees. If they switched to Linux and Open Office which are both open source and FREE, it would save about $20,000.00 per month(or about 2 employees wages:-( .) I would also like to know why they spent $135,000.00 with Prince George Taxi?

I'm sure spending and taxes will be the #1 issue in the next civic election. Dan Rogers et al had better start living up to the promises they made or they will be updating their resumes. Dan will likely end up with a cushy job at one of the Commonwealth companies.


http://www.city.pg.bc.ca/city_services/finance/financialplans/ProvisionalFinancialPlans2010.pdf

I see the waste in the details.

Eliminate or reduce catered events.

Reduce the reliance on outside consultants, planners and engineers. The city already has a number of good planners and engineers on staff, make better use of their professional expertise.

Review city vehicle use policy. When a vehicle is assigned to an employee is it only use for work related duties or is it used for transportation to and from work as well.

It's great that the city can attract professionals from the public sector by offering high wages, but can they afford this luxury. There are many young professionals who have not proved themselves yet but want to and are willing to work for far less than the well experienced 100k+ people they continue to hire.

We have to cannot run the city like a growing prosperous business. For one it is not growing, two we are not currently prospering and finally it is not a business.

Thanks to those posting the more detailed report findings and the info on the petition regarding the proposed new RCMP building.

It amazes me that when the new RCMP building was built on 5th Avenue that it was not built large enough so that we didn't require a second location. They could have gone "up" with that building.

Bottom line...we are taxed so much that we can't afford to stay. I'm talking about the retired homeowner that is facing a fixed income that will be far lower than their current income. I only hope that the word doesn't get out about how high our home taxes are and that we can successfully sell our home for fair value.

I believe we have a group of baffoons that don't know how to chase after money for projects other than hitting the homeowners for cash flow. I remember Dan (just before election) touting a new set of walking trails for a price tag of around $7 mill. If those were the trails in the vicinity of UNBC then I can say that he is the only one I have seen jogging on them. I'm thinking if we had bought him a treadmill for his office it would have been a better investment.

Leave this Province and go to any Alberta city to see the difference in cleanliness and infrastructure. City Hall has it all wrong when it comes to giving us value for our dollars. I've never been asked what I'd like to see done with my tax dollars. Has anyone else been asked?

It might be cheaper for us, in the long run, to break any employment contracts and hire management that knows how to stretch our dollars. As I see it I employ that gang of thieves and as an owner of the tax paying residents fund I'd fire them all.

Thanks to those posting the more detailed report findings and the info on the petition regarding the proposed new RCMP building.

It amazes me that when the new RCMP building was built on 5th Avenue that it was not built large enough so that we didn't require a second location. They could have gone "up" with that building.

Bottom line...we are taxed so much that we can't afford to stay. I'm talking about the retired homeowner that is facing a fixed income that will be far lower than their current income. I only hope that the word doesn't get out about how high our home taxes are and that we can successfully sell our home for fair value.

I believe we have a group of baffoons that don't know how to chase after money for projects other than hitting the homeowners for cash flow. I remember Dan (just before election) touting a new set of walking trails for a price tag of around $7 mill. If those were the trails in the vicinity of UNBC then I can say that he is the only one I have seen jogging on them. I'm thinking if we had bought him a treadmill for his office it would have been a better investment.

Leave this Province and go to any Alberta city to see the difference in cleanliness and infrastructure. City Hall has it all wrong when it comes to giving us value for our dollars. I've never been asked what I'd like to see done with my tax dollars. Has anyone else been asked?

It might be cheaper for us, in the long run, to break any employment contracts and hire management that knows how to stretch our dollars. As I see it I employ that gang of thieves and as an owner of the tax paying residents fund I'd fire them all.

oust this dan rogers!

Yay, Prince George, number one on yet another list. Do us a favour Dan, LEAVE, QUIT, GO AWAY, you're not helping us.

This report ends 2008 so hold back the slagging on Dan Rogers. I fact this report has no direct relationship to his leadership. It falls squarely during the leadership of Colin Kinsley.

I am not saying things have changed but we need to use the statistics quoted in context.

It's a systemic problem that the city needs to address. Our city manager is at least partially responsible for keeping costs in line with reality.

Even though this report is from 2008, I see no evidence that the spending habits have changed. The City seems to buy every building or lot that is for sale downtown. Millions more for flipping fees and demolition fees,

Fifty million for the proposed new police station and they are still pushing for that much again for the PAC.

A couple of hundred thou for the winter games bid and million more to host

With the population still in decline, the next report will show that the situation has gotten worse. By then it will be blamed on ex mayor Dan Rogers. This reckless and wasteful spending has to stop now!

Chinook wrote: "It amazes me that when the new RCMP building was built on 5th Avenue that it was not built large enough so that we didn't require a second location. They could have gone "up" with that building."

As has been posted on several occasions, the building is designed to go up another 3 storeys. In other words, the space can move to 2.5 times the size of the current size or 250% times the size.

AND, the upp level is configured to bridge Brunswick street in case someone wants to build to the east of Brunswick. In fact, they could close that part of Brunswick if they wanted to ans consolidate the two properties. Absolutely no need to compromise current operations either.

But hey, what do I know about such things, eh?

They should their money to fight crime in this city.
Things are getting out of hand up here.
Murders, rape, arson, you name it, it's all here and getting out of control.

For the costs of city of PG property taxes a person could by a brand new beach front condo in the Philippines that comes with a swimming pool, gym, security, and all the other amenities one gets in PG.

They don't have the housing bubble in the Philippines because they require 35% down and only allow real-estate financing over a 36 month term. Foreigners can only buy condo's outright and only then if 60% of the condo's in the complex are owned by Filipino's. A foreigner can buy land too, but with the restrictions limiting to one hector of land and only 40% foreign ownership... which is why they have no big western big box stores like Walmart there and free enterprise thrives.

One can eliminate your mortgage in PG and for the prior cost of property taxes here buy a brand new beautiful condo in paradise....

I think the city of PG needs to cut all pay over $80,000 per year by 25% the $80,000 level. Funny thing is Barak Obama's debt commission in the US is recommending the same pay cut for all US Federal employees....

I'm curious about something.
Why does it take 2 yrs to publish this report.
Does anyone remember the high times, leading up to 2008?
Have things continued?
I guess we'll have to wait 2 years to find out.
Maybe we should try and remember back 2 years, then do a fair comparison.

The paper being circulated to stop the building of the RCMP is NOT a petition. It is only a list of those opposed to the building. If they receive enough signatures opposing, it will then go to referendum. (A feeble attempt to appear democratic) What is to stop City Hall beaurocrats from throwing out a portion of those signatures? Nothing. Most all levels of government have proven themselves corrupt; I see no reason to believe otherwise of ours.
I have canvassed some of my neighborhood and have yet to speak with anyone in favor of this new building. If I hadn't gone to them, would they have gone to City Hall to sign?

If the 5th ave. cop shop is designed to go up a couple more floors.....whats with this bullheaded push for a brand new one!! Fix up and build up the one we got!! As others on here have already suggested ....keep the main one downtown but maybe look at building a couple much smaller cop shops....one up in C.H.'s and another up in he Hart...I'm not talking these huge buildings with built in forest with park like settings but efficiant enough to get the job done! Its time city hall gaves their heads a shake and figures out its not just pushin to get their names on the brass plaque on the front door....make some good choices with the tax payers buck!

Also...concerning the P.A.C. ....I think He spoke is on the right track with the idea of Vanier Hall. I know damn well Dan and the rest sure as hell don't operate their own hard earned cash the way they seem to think the tax payers pot otta be looked after. Did I say ....hard earned?