While I agree that the report might be missing what exactly was taken into account, it's complete and utter BS what he is saying otherwise.

Policing costs are likely to be similar in cities of the same size, but PG is the worst (why didn't other communities increase the same). Our crime rates are ever increasing.

Snow removal and the ice jam? Those are one time costs, but yet we've seen a huge increase since 2000. Mother of nature can be a cruel mistress, but a consistant increase in these numbers over a 10 year period does not account for these things.

Maybe instead of blaming everything they can't control, the should instead take this report, realize that it's likely correct that their spending is out of control and actually do something about it?

I'd be more inclined to vote for a city council that is accountable and realizes when there's a problem instead of trying to spin it as "something we can't do anything about, so enjoy your tax increase next year too."

Dan Rogers and company...they're just not on the same page as those who's taxes they keep raising. What is it exactly you and your gang doesn't get Dan?

When in doubt,always point to the snow removal budget!

Surprising to me that you can go 1 million over the budget when it appears to me as if they just wait for the smow to melt every year. Where do all the snow plow drivers hide instead of working?

I hardly ever see snow plows like I used to 15 years back.

Do we really need city hall to be in the real estate business?

"Fire protection service account for 45% of the operational budget" and "Mayor Rogers points to downloading from other levels of government for part of the problem".

When the Prince George Fire Department fought for and won the right to run a pilot project that uses firefighters to do paramedic duties, did the Provincial Government kick in any funds for the project?

Does this explain why PG has as many firefighters is bigger force than other larger cities?

Did PG City, in allowing this pilot project, not allow the government to download provincialy paid paramedics onto municipally paid firefighters?

Jales .... it does not help when people commenting on here cannot even read what is written on here. How can anyone even expect them to understand a statistical analysis provided by ANYONE, city or otherwise?

Simply put, you belong to the functionally illiterate group. In other words, you and several others cannot function in the role of a knowledgeable and understanding citizen.

Read it again. It says the following:

"The budget for THE RCMP AND the Fire protection service account for 45% of the operational budget"

See the difference leaving out 3 words means. It is a mistake leaving those three words out. That can be excused. But if you are going to add anyting to this debate, you ought to realize that the order of magnitude of 45% of the operational budget for fire services alone should raise a red flag. It is far too much and is, in fact, in error for just the fire protection services.

So beat up on me if you will. I am just saying it like it is.

Now, as to the following statement by the Mayor: "there are some factors which are outside the City’s control, such as the RCMP contract"

I would hope that it is not out of the City's control. A budget based on the amount the RCMP gets for the service to the City has to have some control by the client. If there really is none, then it is high time to get some control over it. Make the RCMP accountable for output of service rather than simple input. Identify those areas where policing is part of the downloading from province to municipality. How much of the cost of training exercises, specialty forces, etc. that address province wide issues are presently paid for by the province and even the Feds.

Come on, City Hall, educate us who are all functionally illiterate at one level or another so that we understand better and we do not have to continue to be suspicious of the operations at City Hall.

On a scale of 1 to 10, EFFECTIVE communications still sits at well below 5 in my mind. City Hall is talking at rather than with the community.

I guess all those other towns have lower police and fire protection costs. With our policing costs so high I wonder how we can attain the lofty goal of crime capital of Canada?

Add in all the extra costs at $30.00 - $40.00 we have for private security firms to monitor our homes and policing costs sky rocket.

I really wonder about the snow clearing budget. Finally today, the streets in our area got plowed. We may as well have waited for the snow to melt this spring as the snow had been pounded into submission by the auto traffic.

A few less grand money wasting schemes like the IPG group, community energy system, RCMP station, PAC, winter games, and buying every derelict piece of unwanted property in the downtown core would go along way to reducing the homeowners tax bill.

Fix the roads and provide essential services and quite spending money on a bunch worthless special interest group projects.

The tax payer has had enough of elected officials who can do nothing but raise taxes and spend. Gordon Campbell found that out the hard way.

jales 4.

Fires protection coverage has many factors which increase manpower requirement as well as facility requirement.

Four of the more obvious factors are
1. size of geographical area
2. types of residential units
3. quality of construction
4. quality of maintenance

Addressing the first two
1. We have a low density city when compared to others of our population. Thus we need more firehalls or we are further away from the farthest building covered by a firehall.

2. We have a larger percentage of single family houses and duplexes. You will notice that is where the fires tend to be.

The main thing we fail to do in this city is to provide information which identifies what our fire protections services actually provide to us and, waht seems to be becoming more important, is how eell are we doing compared to other cities and, maybe even more important, how eell are we doing against at least minimum standard, then common practices, and finally best practices.

Here is a city that has extensive information of what they provide. This city really needs to do a bit of that, as I wrote above. It is an ounce of prevention, as they say.

http://www.ottawa.ca/city_hall/ottawa_performance/ombi/2005_results/fire_en.html

BC is in extreme need of a much better Municipal Benchmarking system then we would not have to bitch about amateurs like the Federation of Independent Business getting into something they know little about.

http://www.ottawa.ca/city_hall/ottawa_performance/ombi

A bit off topic but speaks to PG.

PG Cougars:
-1st place team in BC division.
-Top 6 in the WHL.
-Good Hockey team with future NHLers.
-1700 fans last night.
- Fan base = absolutely embarassing.

PG should be on a new list "Worst Hockey Fans in Canada".

It will look nice on the shelf next to their "Crime Capital" and "City Spending Level".

PG is #1......

Totally off topic: hockey sucks!

"1700 fans last night"

People simply cannot afford to go to those kind of performing arts events when they have to pay $200 to see Elton John ..... :-)

"Do we really need city hall to be in the real estate business?"

Yes.

maybe buy more million dollar buildings and tear them down with the lot value only worth 200 000 and then give them to the university

build more police station by tim hortons so the cops dont have to drive to tims,that alone would save milions in extra fuel cost

"I hardly ever see snow plows like I used to 15 years back."

I do not recall ever seeing "proper" snowplows in this city. There are graders and there are front end loaders. I saw two of each today cleaning up residetnial streets about one week after the main snow fall.

Snow plows can be seen on highways.

I have been a strong supporter of PG for many years, talking up its advantages as a great northern city, but I admit it is fading quickly. Watching the city staff (not necessarily Rogers and crew, because lets admit it they are not the ones in control) make an absolute blunder of every program, purchase and basic infrastructure management decision along the way. Take snow clearing - always point to mother nature and not any internal inefficiencies as the problem. Take the ongoing downtown property purchases - government bodies of any color have no business being in business as they have the ability to dictate rather than market for changes in revenue so are inherrently bad at it. Take the airport development - developing a stretch of barren land with taxes on behalf of a few select wealthy landowners to the tune of millions using the higest price city friendly bidders. Take the re-ordering of the tax base from industrial to residential to "balance" the tax burden - how many residents drive heavy industrial trucks that beat up the roads we use. IPG says we're No.1 in terms of investment potential, and here we are at No.1 for city spending - anyone see the link, because if I was in business I'd see the benefits too. Its not so rosy from the residents side, as we're footing the bill for unaccountable, inefficient city staff decisions. Rogers, you have the power to clean house. City staff, you have the power to do better for your clients.

pg250fan .... good post.... agree 100% ....

build a tim hortons inside the cop station

A bit off topic but speaks to PG.

PG Cougars:
-1st place team in BC division.
-Top 6 in the WHL.
-Good Hockey team with future NHLers.
-1700 fans last night.
- Fan base = absolutely embarassing.

PG should be on a new list "Worst Hockey Fans in Canada".

It will look nice on the shelf next to their "Crime Capital" and "City Spending Level".

PG is #1......

The fact remains that Peebles never makes mistakes when digging up stats. Therefore, this city is spending beyond their tax base and regardless of Rogers weak explanation, we will believe Peebles first.
OK Dan, the ball is in your court and it's time to make the apoplogy and start cleaning house, as well as selling the scrap pile of buildings we bought to make room for your 'dream city' of arts and flowers.
Try doing something using rational finance policys and move away from the 'I want it now' syndrome. You're not a little boy any more; it's time to suck it up and admit your dreams are not justified. The people of Prince george do not want to pay for your extravigant tastes. If we don't hear something a little more positive from you, I think the voting next time around will not be in your favor. You have crtainly lost my vote. Get real and do what's best for us rather than a select few. Get rid of some staff.

At Gus....I don't think your comments referring to someone being a functioning illiterate is smart. I would like to suggest that if you think you are the brighter one then let us see you run for Mayor or Council.

This is a public forum and everyone commenting has a beef with the City. Cut some slack.

Life is great!

Peebles doesn’t make mistakes in digging up the facts. You obviously don’t read the Citizen very often.

Too narrow,he say's like the head on his shoulders!We need another study.HMMMMMM and how much will that waste!Say heehaw..

I don't see anyone sueing Peebles for his articles in the Citizen. I don't see this city sueing McLeans either. Editors don't usually print heresay without advising the public that it is heresay.

"The fact remains that Peebles never makes mistakes when digging up stats".
Hey Supertech...come on, this guys about as credible as the rag he writes for.

Jales4, you seem to have a real hate on for the fire department and what they do. I actually did a little research and found many inaccuracies in your past posts regarding them. Do a little asking around before you come on here spouting your hate!

Chinook wrote: "I don't think your comments referring to someone being a functioning illiterate is smart"

You are allowed your opinion as everyone else is. For people like me to criticize City Hall and politicans is actually not very smart, but I do it anyway. It does not get anyone any favours. I generally call it as I see it.

I mean look at where the thread is going now. All of the sudden someone has drawn Peebles into it. The poor guy just wrote about a study prepared by a small business association. He is not the one who came up with the stats. He is just the messenger. In fact, he points out some of the questionable issues surrounding the study. I don't see too many having the interest to tackle that. They just see this as another witless opportunity to hit the City.

Everyone has a level of functional illiteracy. The general population cannot keep up with the complexity in daily life. Most do not have the faintest clue how a city is run and what needs to be done to survive in the municipal competitive game. Yet we all comment, some of us more quickly than others, without having adequate knowledge to make an informed opinion.

It is the nature of a discussion board like this.

Gus, you are correct, I mistakenly cropped the quote, which drastically changed its meaning. I only included fire because that is the group I was discussing.

Your response had many good points, which I appreciated - but the functionally illiterate comment was uncalled for.

Does the increase in City spending have anything to do with diversification? I believe it does. I will throw this out there to say that some of the city's extra spending has been to do with changing this city from just a large mill town. I am optomistic in thinking that this city can also be a learning and transportation hub.
Being landowners in the downtown area is a good thing and i feel had to be done. How else will downtown revitalization happen. Not from the store owners. Making PG a better place is obviously going to take some spending and results won't be seen immediately. Every good company diversifies and that includes Cities.

Okay... but I beg to differ... your City is NOT a company and should not be run as if it was... further, if it was to be run as a company, it would employee people who know how to run one... not a bunch of ( fill in the blank ) people who would not last 33 minutes in a real company.

Good companies do NOT diversify... they stick to what they know... grow from within and do what they know how to do.... not wander off into waters that are over their heads.

V.

Good companies don't diversify? Really? You mean Canfor hasn't diversified its marketing approach to target China as opposed to only the North American market? You mean that every auto maker in the world hasn't diversified their product line to include SUV's when that's what the market was demanding? What about Apple computers? Have they not changed their product line to be cutting edge in regards to what the market seeks? One could actually argue that through diversification, they are a market leader.

I think the issue is how you are defining diversification. Sure Apple computers would never dream of building a better greenhouse, however, within their core structure, they still need to have a diverse product offering.

If we then look at something like a city, we have to figure out what they should offer through their core structure and what their role is. If one of those roles is to promote economic development, then surely a diverse approach to that mandate has some upside.

As an aside, how do you know that city employees wouldn't last 33 minutes in a "real company", whatever that is? Is it possible that you've grossly underestimated the complexities involved with operating an enterprise like a city and have therefore underestimated the environment in which city employees operate? Also, is it the employees or the managers? The employees in the finance department or the parking meter attendants? Who exactly are you talking about?

Doogood the problem with the city being in business for the purpose of change is the problem itself though. As you correctly point out, changes to a different PG require spending. But in business, small or large, new ventures/diversification must be based on a rock solid plan and results have to be demonstrated to investors. In this case, the residents are the investors and we have little say in the matter when they come back asking for more money at the same time promising results. I think they had a good idea pre-2008 crash, but seem unwilling to realize the capital funding needed in parallel to their efforts just isn't out there. Good business minded folks stop/revise and re-evaluate every step of the way and sometimes cancel a project along the way if things change. We can't continue to support a good idea at the wrong time, since we'll learn the hard way that it will be no good to be at the finish line with no money left for a rainy (or snowy as the case may be according to Rogers) day.

The massive costs bcause of the ice jam suggest a massive problem with the City's (lack of?)emergency respose plan?? can we expect more scrambling to mitigate problems after they occur? Why are the roads constantly falling aprart well before a normal lifespan for paement?

to continue from Jimmi..

maybe their inability to have the provincial emergency program adequately cover the costs they incurred for the ice jam shuold be the real question - isn't that what it's for? Smoke and mirrors pointing to the ice jam since the city should be smart enough to have the province foot that bill through PEP, not from general revenue. My guess is PEP gave them more than enough to offset the extra OT they paid...

Rogers spin is nonsense. Why is City Hall continuing to add 'fluff' positions when everyone else is belt tightening? Rogers resume should have been a signal of his ability to be Mayor. The City of PG employees run this City and dictate your taxes.

I see a few city plow trucks on the streets at night but they only sand or salt on top of the snow. They all have under body plows but heaven forbid that they would ever use them! I have asked about that but never even got an answer. You would think that they could at least clean a portion of the center of the street so that cars wouldn't get pulled from side to side in heavy snow. Again, why do they always have their blades up??

Just a couple of points for clarification.
1. The RCMP and fire services budgets are under the City's control, however, policy changes, and wage increases for those two outfits are not. So, decisions made in Ottawa are dumped on this City without consultation, It has been a bone of contention with this City and others with RCMP contracts.
2. My error, I wrote that RCMP and Fire services account for 45% of the operational budget, I should have written 45% of the tax levy. I apologize for the error.

-Elaine Macdonald

rodgers end this creating jobs for no reason now,pg is going to be taxed high as whistler in a few years the way ur going,stop this!!!