Thanks for the firewood.

Can we say..."election"?

When it comes to dealing with First Nations Reserves it feels like we are driving around in a Ford Pinto and throwing a few dollars at it every year to keep it functioning.

In other words, I think the people that live on the reserve are stuck in a rut and will likely be there for generations. If they just live to cover the basics and there are no tools to create a vision beyond what they currently have then the cycle won't change.

You do see a couple of the reserves doing much better. I believe down in the Okanagan one is doing well because they have a winery and a whole bunch of different business ventures that help to employ First Nations.

If we are going to change things away from the poverty level that a lot of First Nations have then making them run businesses is a good first step. Give them something to take some pride in.

I think we would like to think that "white" people would behave a lot differently, but if we lived in these conditions and were stuck in this rut I bet you would also see the same result. We aren't really that different as some might think.

Your right mkw. Their existence has become genetic. But imagine they will provide seven units and what happens to the housing for the remainder living on these reserves?

Just think if we used the billions that are going towards millitary aircraft the conditions of our natives would improve dramaticaly. Along with some education which is the least cost of all.
Cheers

Where can I apply for money to improve my housing?

100 years ago many Canadian lived in exactly the same conditions, maybe worse. People on the prairies lived in sod huts.

Most people (myself included) do not have a clue as to what actually takes place on reserves. Most people on these posts have never been on one, and further more dont have any idea how these people are faring.

We seem to base our understanding of the First Nations based on what we see and here in Prince George. There is much more to it than that.

Many Natives do in fact have their own business's and have had them for years. In addition they are excellent hunters, trappers, guides, etc; I grew up with Natives that drove truck for 30 years, worked for the department of highways for all their life, farmed, fished, etc; etc;

One of the biggest logging contractors in BC is Duz Cho Logging Co owned (as I understand) by the McCleod Lake Band. In addition they own sawmills around Burns Lake and Williams Lake, plus who knows what else.

The old Government building on Third Avenue is owned and operated by Natives, and they work there on a regular basis. This list goes on and on.

So I suggest that we would be far better off to get an understanding of the situation before we find fault with it.

Aboriginal poplulation at UNBC (self declared aboriginals) 390.

Arboriginals in BC (2006 Census) 196,075
Vancouver 40,310
Fr. Ft George 9,630

Canada 1.172,785.

Percent of population in Fraser Ft George is 10%.

mwk; educate yourself. The Canadian government aka "the taxpayer" throws more than a few dollars a year at the First nations problems. The department budget is tallied in billions of dollars. Granted some is wasted by an overabundance of bureauocrats. And some Band administrations have been in the news lately accused of misappropriation of funds.

You speak of a First Nations success in the Okanogan. Google Chief Clarence Louie and you will see why they are successful.
Also as Palopu suggests the McLeod Lake Band appears to be doing well with their
"Duz Cho" logging operation. There are other First Nation success stories as well.

If I didn't have to pay HST on equip. & not pay income tax could I ever give you a sucsess story Trump move over!!!

Palopu I know all about those businesses that your talking about. But I don't think you really read what I was talking about.

First, I'm talking about those people that live "on reserve". Some of the workers your talking about are First Nations, but don't live on reserve. You can't point to Duz Cho logging and one building in PG and say that First Nations are involved in business. There are a lot of reserves in Canada and they don't have connections to Duz Cho or a building in PG.

Second, hunting and trapping really? I can see people doing this to put some food on the table or maybe as a hobby, but as a means to support a family and give them a future........come on!!! Tell me how many moose, mountain sheep and bears you would have to trap/hunt in order to buy a house, car, clothing, utilities etc. That just doesn't make any sense.

Third, what do sod huts and poor living conditions 100 years ago have to do with this? First Nations used to live in Teepees 100 years ago and now they live in houses/trailers.........?

Kendoo you make no sense. So you would have about another 1/3 more than you have now. So if your worth about $300K now you would have $400K without those taxes. Wow, Trump look out. I think people think taxes are a bigger drain than they really are.

Trust me, I add up taxes that we pay each year between property taxes, income taxes, consumption taxes, gas taxes and it's a good sum, but it's not keeping me from being a multi-billionaire.........please!!!

As long as the residents of the reserves continue to receive gifts of housing and subsistence they will not develop a sense of ownership and pride. Most of them, at least the younger ones, do not respect their housing, some of them do not respect much of anything the government (taxpayers) gives them. Substance abuse is rampant in many of these populations, which only worsens the problem. Sure, many reserve residents do not fall under the above descriptions, but they alone cannot change the lack of direction many of their brothers and sisters suffer from. Media reports of substandard living conditions on Canada's reserves are common, how many people realize that the substandard conditions are brought on and perpetuated by the residents themselves? Indian affairs does not build a broken down, mouldy shack for status indians to live in, that substandard shack was once a new home, but homes require maintenance and care, to remain liveable. Indian Affairs does not kick holes in the doors, or set fires in the house, or smash out the windows. I certainly don't have a solution to the problem.
Obviously, throwing money at the problems faced on the reserves is not the (only) solution, allowing the troubled ones to develop a sense of self worth is the key. Now how do we do that?
metalman.

OK mwk the gov. building was aquired for 1.00 dollar. If I'm sure I could live very good off a gift like that.

Your last comment mwk is so correct. Sure we pay a lot of taxes, but we also have it pretty good. Imagine if you had to take your toddler to the hospital for a minor illness, boom there goes all the savings you made on paying less taxes.

You can not save yourself rich. Only way to get ahead is to make more money. As long as your working for someone else, your earning power is limited!

He spoke it's not how much money we make, it's how much money you spend. We all know how to make money but few people know how to spend money & BINGO'S don't count.

kendoo, what?

So you are gifted a building that you use to provide services to other first nations. Where do you get the "live very good"?

If I think of a situation where I have a house and I "give" it to a person who has nothing. Are they better off? Yes, if they turned around and sold that house and used the funds to buy food, clothing, rented shelter, etc.

But if that same person who previously had nothing and is now sitting in that house with the lights off, no heat, no furniture, no fridge, etc. tell me how your living very good off of a gift like that.

I think this situation is like if you give a man a fish he will have a good meal and then be hungry tomorrow. If you show the man how to fish and give him a "fishing rod". Then he will be able to feed himself for years to come.

mwk you are right you could just sit in the dark with no food or WORK a good 4 letter word. I would get a paper route before a hand out. Good day I'm ouy.

Once again we use the broad brush approach to cover a complex problem.

I suggest that if you go to the skid road area of Vancouver and some other places in BC you would see a lot of non-native people, drug addicts, drunks, prostitues, etc, hanging around, and lving off the Government. If you were to look at some of the places these people live in you would be appalled.

Do these people represent the average non-native British Columbian. NO.

Do the stories above represent the average native in BC. NO.

The Government throws billions of dollars supporting non-natives on welfare, and the Eastern Provinces, especially have been receiving billions of dollars for the last 100 years.

The biggest welfare bums in the country are Corporations, and Government Workers. So get off your high horse, and become more realistic.

Have a nice day.

There has to be a point where the Natives start taking care of themselves.

The greatest trick the natives ever pulled was convincing us we actually owe them something. The life of a hunter-gatherer is brutish and short. The white man gave them so much more, for free and asked nothing in return. But they had the gall to demand more and what's worse, some bleeding hearts with no clue what its like to live as a savage actually listened. Everytime a native turns on a light, or gets in a vehicle or their furnace kicks on or they go to a doctor or dentist or use a computer, everytime they benefit from our society, which is supposed to be some kind of nightmare for them, they should pay a tax. Nothing is stopping them or anyone else from going back to the land. Trouble is, nobody wants to eat worms and scratch fleas while their teeth rot out their face and ticks devour them as they wait to freeze to death or die of blood poisoning. That's what we saved them from. And this is the thanks we get. Some nerve. And don't give me no jive about native "medicine" - rubbing pine needles in a cut will only inflame it. The savage life is a utopian dram - rubbish.

He spoke:- "As long as your working for someone else, your earning power is limited!"
-------------------------------------------
But if you were working solely "for yourself" it's non-existent.

We ALL, at least ALL of us who work to earn MONEY, work for "someone else". Even the self-employed. For there is no other source of a money income than to get it from "someone else."

Ruez your right on the money. They do need to start taking care of themselves, but until they start being an equal partner we can't get there.

In the past, Govt's have just thrown a few dollars at them to keep them content for a while. Then we should be surprised that in a year or 2 they come back. That's because they aren't making something for themselves like they do when they have their own businesses and decent jobs.

Palopu and Kendoo seem to post comments and don't have the facts to back them up. Palopo says "Government throws billions of dollars supporting non-natives on welfare" Is that right Billions on Welfare.

Check out:

http://www.hstinbc.ca/managing_your_household/services_you_depend_on

The province of BC spends about $3 Billion on Social Services for the entire Ministry. But half of that money goes to housing, employment assistance and other programs which help people. Only $1.5B is true welfare. That 1.5 Billion only represents 4% of the Province of BC's budget.

"The biggest welfare bums in the country are Corporations, and Government Workers"

I agree Palopu, your family doctor is a welfare bum! LOL.

The FACT the government never wants to face is that you can't expect any people to exhibit personal responsibility in a culture where 'property' is held in common.

The Nishga are already recognising this, and the need for private property rights if they ever hope to realise the full promise of the Treaty they negotiated.

Like Palopu, I've known and worked alongside many Indians, and by and large they're fine people. I've known some who owned their own businesses, too, and were very successful at them.

They weren't handed anything by the government, they used their own initiative, made their own mistakes, and learned from them. And they didn't demand respect from anybody because their ancestors were here first; they earned the very considerable respect they were accorded by being just as good as anyone else at what they did.

One I knew even ran for MLA once, for BC Social Credit, and never once suggested anyone should vote for him because he was an Indian. He was a logging contractor, proud of that, and his heritage, as well he should be. But he didn't try to use it to be a 'token Indian', or anything like that. He lost, unfortunately, which was too bad because he'd have made a fine representative for all the citizens of our riding.

Some people say the Reserve Indians won't work, they're just bone lazy, and would sooner suck off the government than do anything to help themselves. I'd say a lot of the blame for that rests with our encouragement of a culture that just isn't compatible with the modern world.

If a bright young Indian showed initiative in wanting to start up a business on a Reserve, all too often he's not able to do as we are able to ~ to make his own mistakes that cost HIM, and having learned from them the hard way, are not soon forgotten.

Instead, he's often encouraged to try to manage some kind of business he's not ready to manage. And even if learns how to, one he'll never own. One the Band Council gets the "white man" to fund, and design, and often construct. It doesn't have to show a profit. The "white man" will cover the losses. For it's the "white man" who wants to show the world that the Indian is now "employed". And Band Councils are not about to deny the hand that feeds them. So a show is put on, but the actors recognise the futility of it all, and the underlying problem remains.

"The biggest welfare bums in the country are Corporations, and Government Workers"

Wow, never heard of corporations and govt workers getting lumped together like this before. Usually, it's one side or the other........

Are there some "bums" in government that don't work for their paycheque, sure there is. But for the most part they do a good service and help to keep the province/municipal/country running fairly smoothly.

Are there business people and wage earners in the private sector that are lazy and not worth the money they are paid.....yup a bunch there as well.

I think we need to look past the odd screwup and look at the bigger picture. Are we still a great country that has good people and a good society that we can be proud of? You bet. Wouldn't live anywhere else. Even if I have to drive through the odd pothole to do it...haha.

"The greatest trick the natives ever pulled was convincing us we actually owe them something."

A very convenient statement, indeed! The French and the British took their land away from them! Quite a trick! We got stuck with paying them compensation when we became a country instead of just a colony!

I say they should go after those who first disowned them: The French and the British, especially Great Britain!

I am non-Native and I am appalled at what was done to them!

The HST is a billion dollar a year welfare payment to Corporations from the Taxpayers of BC, and thats only the tip of the iceburg.

I would say that 80% of Government workers probably earn their wages, and the balance are getting paid for doing dick all.

Government workers get paid 35% more than the same job in the private sector, so I would say at least the 35% is welfare.

Have a nice day.

My Doctor is not a Government worker.

He is a private business man. He hires staff, and rents office space, etc; etc;.

We could just as easily have the Doctor bill us and send the invoice to the Government for payment. At the very minimum he contracts to the Government, much like Road Contractors, and ICBC Agents, etc;

The next time you go to your Doctor, refer to him as a Government Worker, or Civil Servant. I sugget you do it after you have your rectal exam.

Your doctor is a private business man? LMAO!!!! That's a real stretch Palopu. How much of his business is earned from "private" sources? I'd say virtually zilch. Doctors operate in a completely uncompetitive market here in Canada and they make their money almost entirely from government funding. Heck, they are even regulated by the government. They may as well be government employees given the realities of what they do. We could debate this for days, but what about the new oncologist who was just hired to run the cancer centre? Is he a welfare bum? What about the lab tech that draws your blood? Welfare bum? The soldier who defends our country? Welfare bum? Border guards who keep drugs out out the country? Welfare bum? Coast Guard staff who rescue people at sea? Welfare bums?

As for your assertion that government workers get paid 35% more than the same job in the private sector, I'd say that this is a generalization of epic proportions. In some cases (for low skilled workers), it could be true. In others (for high skilled workers) it could actually be the opposite. You think a government lawyer makes as much as a defence attorney? What about a scientist working at Environment Canada? You think they make as much as a scientist working for some oil sands company? I know quite a few people (professionals) who started their careers in government to get good experience and were then poached by the private sector after 2-3 years and given SIGNIFICANT pay raises to leave government jobs. This is not uncommon Palopu.

Wow what an excellent tpic to throw stuff at each other, really didn't read anything to try and make things better for anyone. Everybody should agree that just giving more money out doesn't seem to do anything in the big picture. Here's an idea what do you all think.
Seems we have a shortage of trades people in this contry. Lets say the aboriginals get a 1 shot deal that they have to make the best of, remember 1 shot deal.
Each person, is given a choice of a trade to pick,they are sent to school, put up in a decent dorm, their food and expenses taken care of, Remember 1 shot deal, If they drop out, decide not to attend,then so be it, it was their choice.
Over the years i have moved from province to province so I could provide a better,lfe for my family,I went to where the WORK was. Most would do the same.
It is time to move on, History is history,should never be forgotten.
A simple, costly but effective way for alot of people to make their lives better.
Yes taxes would be paid by everybody!!!

Really nothing compared to the billion dollar bail out packages our govt gave to the gready pigs on wall street and the head offices of GM and Chrystler.

Palopu, thanks for the positive comments about McLeod Lake Indian Band. It was an honour and a priviledge for me to work for such a progressive band. I was employed with them for one year, commuting back and forth from Prince George every day. The daily commute was tiring, but once I got to the reserve, I would totally forget the commute because the folks out there are so wonderful and a joy to work with. MLIB wants to see a better and brighter future for their people and they work on this goal each and every day.

northman, the so called bailout packages for GM and Chrysler were actually loans, were they not? Loans which had to be paid back, and hasn't GM already paid theirs back? And did'nt the feds take a stake in the companies to secure the loans?
Far from being a bail out, like it has been in the past, like with Massey Ferguson.
I think naps's idea above is a good one, but it would shut down the Indian Industry, and so many lawyers would have to find another means of income.
metalman.

WOW!!

Nothing like a story about money to aboriginals to bring out the pundits.

I worked with a business consultant some years ago that had an interesting take on aboriginal 'finances'.

He worked with native bands producing business and marketing plans.

He had a philosophy that native bands were "ADDICTED" to federal money and as long as a band relied on federal income to keep the bands coffers alive, it is unlikely the band could ever be self sufficient and, more importantly, had limited opportunity to grow and move beyond their current economic and social situations.

I have pondered his statement for many years and the more it think about it the more I agree. I believe it truly is an addiction. When you hear about a band that has risen above the federal income addiction you hear about sucessful business ventures that are allowing these bands to better care for their own population.

Something to think about.

I think that a lot of local contractors and developers are addicted to Government money and Government projects. Its the only thing that keeps them working and allows them to make huge profits.

If they had to rely on private money, they would have to leave Pr George and go to work somewhere else in the World and compete.