"Luggi says, "There is something systemically wrong with the RCMP training, if members have to taser an 11-year-old child."

Not necessarily. That said, I do believe there is something wrong with society when an 11 year old kid has to live in what is essentially guarded conditions by numerous adults on an around the clock basis because he doesn't have the family support network in place to do it for him.

Why doesn't David Luggi and others try to determine if there were failures in this kid's upbringing that forced him into this situation in the first place? If there were, how do we work to try and correct those failures so it doesn't happen to more kids? Or, perhaps this is just an isolated incident that we can't learn anything from?

Hate to say it but my bets are his parents were alcoholics and this poor kid has fetal alcohol syndrome. So he doesn't have a chance being so messed up at such an early age. I guess that's why we have youth containment centers.

So forget about the tasering, is this kid going to get off scott free for stabbing this guy because of his age?

I fully agree NMG. Before the tribe goes all out on a finger pointing expedition, perhaps they should look at their own society (after all, they are a sovereign nation aren't they?) and fund their own investigation as to how an 11 year old child was given up on by them, and ended up being so disturbed that the kid stabbed a man.

But I suppose it's easier to point fingers at others than look within.

Come on Folks! Can't we just wait til the investigation is complete before we go surmising and speculating, and for crying out loud, ease up on the finger pointing. I know Luggi and Teegee don't have a clue what happened yet, nor does anyone.
Let's wait until we hear from the guys that are looking in to this mess to determine what happened. I can't believe half the posts on CBC, PG Citizen, they're screaming for blood, blaming the parents and police.
How bout we hear how the victims doing. People tend to think negatively in situations such as this. Wait for the info on how and why this came about.

Simple answer, RCMP won't respond to calls involving first nations people as no matter what they do its the wrong way to handle it.

This is obviously not a normal child. The fact that it is an aboriginal child is most certainly a complicating factor due to the prejudice that still exists against aboriginals.

BUT, there have been ample indicators, in my opinion, that the RCMP is not exactly the best police force in the world at de-escalating situations they find themselves in. To me they must lack training in situational awareness or their training is of a very low calibre. Perhaps it is unfair to single out the RCMP. Perhaps other police forces suffer from the same problems. Perhaps it is just that the RCMP happen to be the primary police force outside the lower mainland. Perhaps we do not hear from other areas of the country or, when we do, it goes in one ear and out the other.

I am not anti RCMP. I am pro having a police force, or police forces that are competent in the work they do, not just catching speeders and doing paper work, but in solving crimes, preventing crimes, and responding in a reasonable and sensitive manner to volatile incidents.

Ok Luggi and Teegee can take turns looking after this kid. Oh? what? they can't? Oh my...

And Wylie was a nut case too...violent one.

"Or, perhaps this is just an isolated incident that we can't learn anything from?"

While in a book store the other day I was leafing through a book written some 22 years ago about the media and, what the author suggests, is the failure of the media to inform us of the matters of the world.

The fact that such a child exists, the fact that it is in our midsts without our typically knowing about such cases, I say these are "matters of the world".

The level of engagement and the quality of engagement of people on this site and many others similar to this one shows me that we have a lot to learn of such cases around us.

The reasons why this chid is in such a state of living can vary like the infinite variations of the colours of the spectrum. The fact that he is aboriginal will likely result in certain scenarios dominating which would be completely different had the child been Caucasian, Chinese, etc.

The child could have lost his parents and had no other relatives.

He could suffer from one or more of many agression disorders, Intermittent Explosive Disorder would be one such example of many.

To me, it is simply one more result of de-institutionalizing those who have such disorders. In the process of that action, we have allowed a few gaps to persist since our knowledge of how to handle such cases while providing people with as much human dignity as possible, is imperfect.

Most certainly, the general population has not been educated very well in the change that has happened over the last 3 to 4 decades. However, our police force and our social workers who will encounter the more eccentric bahaviour ought to be better informed of how to react to such situations.

When you're 21 and entering the police force fresh out of college, what life experience can you count on to talk someone down from harming themselves or someone else. Yes they are given training at depot, but as you and I both well know, training is one thing, applying that training on the street is another thing. When they dropped the promotion time from 10 to 15 years, down to five years for a Corporals position (to attract more members) they lost the experience required to supervise junior members. If that 5 years was spent in a large detachment with lots of backup, those five year corporals lose the ability to talk a person in to doing the right thing. Because they had experienced guys around them who knew how to talk to people. Not saying that's what happened here. You take a constable that's been in small communities with no back up,
they learn how to deal with situations because they are it, there is no one to call.
Well that's just my opinion, seen too much maybe.
Let's just hope the victim in this case recovers both physically and mentally, and this boy gets the help needed.

I can say that "opinion" as this site is amply named is exactly what you the above posters are; opinionated is addition to racist. As a social service worker in this community I have met numerous young men who have been in group care, specialized foster care or as in this case specialized residences. Their disability, mental health issues or other factors are often beyond their control and their families control. It seems to me that you people are making the assumption that just because this young man is native his family is to blame for his living situation at this time of his young life. I am just speculating but it is possible and probable that his family is actively involved in his involvement with this staffed residential living facility that he is involved in. If this young man was Caucasian I am sure that there would be an equal uproar but would you be so quick to point the finger of blame on the parents. There are disabled children in all cultures, I have worked with an equal number of both cultures whose children were required for the sake of the child, the parents and the community to be highly supported. In many situations these parents requested and or begged for assistance from MCFD to deal with the behaviors their children exhibit. It is called voluntary placement and more often than not it is temporary while medications are being adjusted, specialists are consulted and plans are developed specific to the child in care so that they can eventually become "normal" members of society. Any child in such a highly supported environment will have an extensive plan in place to deal with all possible extremes. This situation was no doubt one in a million and I am sure that all avenues prior to the use of extreme or deadly force was considered before the taser was employed. If you have ever been placed in a situation where your life was put in jeopardy because that was your job you would be less judgmental and more empathetic to the staff of the "home" and to the RCMP. Sometimes you do what you have to do and then relive the situation over and over again you would choose to make different decisions. Guild, regret an upset stomach, ulcers and sleepless nights are part of this field. I have been there and I personally feel for what the staff and the RCMP officer are going through at this time. I am sure the investigation will bring the truth behind what happened to the front of the spotlight and changes to policies and procedures surrounding youth in care will be made. Remember it wasn't that long ago that children just like this young man would have been institutionalized and not permitted to live like "normal" children regardless of what supports he has been provided.

I can say that "opinion" as this site is amply named is exactly what you the above posters are; opinionated is addition to racist. As a social service worker in this community I have met numerous young men who have been in group care, specialized foster care or as in this case specialized residences. Their disability, mental health issues or other factors are often beyond their control and their families control. It seems to me that you people are making the assumption that just because this young man is native his family is to blame for his living situation at this time of his young life. I am just speculating but it is possible and probable that his family is actively involved in his involvement with this staffed residential living facility that he is involved in. If this young man was Caucasian I am sure that there would be an equal uproar but would you be so quick to point the finger of blame on the parents. There are disabled children in all cultures, I have worked with an equal number of both cultures whose children were required for the sake of the child, the parents and the community to be highly supported. In many situations these parents requested and or begged for assistance from MCFD to deal with the behaviors their children exhibit. It is called voluntary placement and more often than not it is temporary while medications are being adjusted, specialists are consulted and plans are developed specific to the child in care so that they can eventually become "normal" members of society. Any child in such a highly supported environment will have an extensive plan in place to deal with all possible extremes. This situation was no doubt one in a million and I am sure that all avenues prior to the use of extreme or deadly force was considered before the taser was employed. If you have ever been placed in a situation where your life was put in jeopardy because that was your job you would be less judgmental and more empathetic to the staff of the "home" and to the RCMP. Sometimes you do what you have to do and then relive the situation over and over again you would choose to make different decisions. Guild, regret an upset stomach, ulcers and sleepless nights are part of this field. I have been there and I personally feel for what the staff and the RCMP officer are going through at this time. I am sure the investigation will bring the truth behind what happened to the front of the spotlight and changes to policies and procedures surrounding youth in care will be made. Remember it wasn't that long ago that children just like this young man would have been institutionalized and not permitted to live like "normal" children regardless of what supports he has been provided.

I think the kid probably did much better with a quick shock from a tazer than he would have with two rounds into the chest. I am not saying that the tazering was necessary in this case, but given the options, I think things worked out fairly well for all involved.

Carrier Sekani Tribal Council says it will be monitoring the subsequent investigations closely.

Did they have an interest in the kid before this incident?

I doubt it seamutt, I doubt it at all.

I for one would not want the RCMP to be second guessing themselves every time a situation arose that might require the use of a firearm or taser.
Obviously now with the portable recording devices it has shown the spin the RCMP put on a situation is not necessarily the truth as was shown with Polish immigrant tasering in the Vcr airport. Given the lack of spin or any information by the RCMP in this case demonstrates they are learning not to try a cover up.
One day there will be civilian oversight and things will improve tremendously for both the general public as well as the image of the RCMP.

Well, a bunch of posts here. Does anyone want to listen?

This incident has nothing to do about race.
Teachers deal with these kind of kids, from all backgrounds, everyday.

What it takes is people caring about troubled kids to talk with them, and work things out. Teachers don't have tazers-- and deal with problem kids every...every.. day. And work things out.

What does this say about RCMP training??

Well said Seamutt.
My impression of Carrier Sekani is they take advantage of every political opportunity they can. They take sad cases of aboriginal people and blow it up to suit their political agendas. I'm sure they didn't know this kid that got tasered. When they found out he was aboriginal, they jumped all over it. The same for the child advocate Mary Ellen Turpel-Lafond. She's another one who follows the political wind. All self-serving, not for the people they're supposed to serve.

"I think the kid probably did much better with a quick shock from a tazer than he would have with two rounds into the chest"

That is the choice you think they had?

Unless the kid had the type of knife which could be effectively thrown, knew how to do that, then the furthest he could reach with the knife is the length of his arm plus a bit of a lean or lunge. Easy enough to stay out of that reach.

No knowledge of whether he had a hostage. Not likely. As someone put it, he may have been threatening to kill himself. So far, that is the only situation I can think of which may have given the use of a taser some justification. We may find out in this case with the amount of publicity this is getting. Normally, because a child is involved, we would likely not find out such details.

If time was not of the essence, then the main objective should be to diffuse the situation without tools such as tasers or guns.

If the kid was threatening suicide, pretend he was going to jump from a bridge onto pavement below. A taser would not have helped in such a situation. A combination of keeping him engaged verbally, getting him relaxed, and protecting the hard surfaces below for softer "landing" would have been appropriate.

I wonder whether there are known resources of qualified people in this community who can be called to assist in such cases?

We really know very little about the resources we have here for such situations.

What is the key sign of a competent person? Knowing when one is beyond the ability to resolve an issue and will call for help ... and, ideally, know what kind of help is required and where to find it.

Police are not omnipotent. Knowing when to call for the proper help should actually be one of their key tools. Without that knowledge, they can only deal with their normal tools on their belts and elsewhere.

The RCMP have a split second to make the decision when a person is coming at them with a knife that they had already stabbed someone with. Personaly I would rather be tasered than shot. The issue that the boy was aboriginal has nothing to do with the act he commited. Color should never have been brought into the topic.

I have to wonder, What was the caregiver doing to make the boy want to stab him in the first place?

What the care giver did? are you kidding me wrinkledawg. Do you even have any idea what caregivers endure on a daily bsis while careing for people. They put their selves on the line every day for people with many different disabilities and who are very violent and this is what you say. I would like to see you work with this boy for one day and than maybe you would think twice about blaming the caregiver.

"Unless the kid had the type of knife which could be effectively thrown, knew how to do that, then the furthest he could reach with the knife is the length of his arm plus a bit of a lean or lunge. Easy enough to stay out of that reach"

I'm sorry gus, but this statement is completely unreasonable. A person could advance on someone who is 10-15 feet away from them in roughly 1 second. Keep in mind that this is just the time for person A to get within striking distance of person B, it doesn't even fact

factor in the reaction time needed to assess the situation, react, etc. These are just physiological constraints, not training issues. When faced with someone with a knife and that person is within 30 feet, an RCMP member probably has the luxury of 2-3 seconds to figure out what to do, maybe less, if that situation escalates. They may have to make an immediate decision if the person just came upon them at the door, etc. The notion that they have all the time in the world to sit back and calmy diffuse the situation just may not be possible and your point that they could simply "stay out of range" may also be completely impossible depending on the situation.

Gus Wrote:

"Unless the kid had the type of knife which could be effectively thrown, knew how to do that, then the furthest he could reach with the knife is the length of his arm plus a bit of a lean or lunge. Easy enough to stay out of that reach."

Is that right Gus? You seem to be an expert in this field. Well you are wrong. By the time someone in their mind decides to run with a knife at someone it will need the other person to recognize this, decide there is a threat to them, reach for their pistol, draw, aim and fire. But I guess in your world you could do this instantaneously and therefore could stop a threat right in front of you.

Give your head a shake Gus. You are talking about what you do not know.

"Unless the kid had the type of knife which could be effectively thrown, knew how to do that, then the furthest he could reach with the knife is the length of his arm plus a bit of a lean or lunge. Easy enough to stay out of that reach."

That is incorrect. Here is an experiment, get someone to hold something harmless in their hand pretending it is a knife. Have them stand 20 feet away and then take a lunge at you. Nine times out of ten you will be cut. The fancy defensive moves only work in the movies. In a knife situation you will be hurt.

Unless other information comes to light I defend the cop in this case.

"This incident has nothing to do about race.
Teachers deal with these kind of kids, from all backgrounds, everyday. What it takes is people caring about troubled kids to talk with them, and work things out. Teachers don't have tazers-- and deal with problem kids every...every.. day. And work things out"

Good grief!!!

I hate to break it to you but no, teachers don't deal with kids and situations like these every single day. Truth be told, the overwhelming majority won't deal with a situation like this in their entire career. Teachers aren't coming to the rescue of their co-workers who have been stabbed by a student. In those cases, they evacuate the school as best they can, they dial 911 and they wait for the RCMP to come and handle with the situation.

Seamutt:
Right On!

Very well said Peanut. The thought of being stabbed with a "dirty knife" is terrifying. People working in group homes are routinely tested for diseases such as TB....And there is a reason for that.
Not knowing the victim's medical history, I would be more inclined to neutralize an attacker then risk being stabbed with a knife dripping with someone else's blood. Think about that for a moment. People have said the RCMP's lives clearly were not in danger...but how do you know? Do you know for 100% the victim was not HIV positive or infected with Hep A or Hep B?

Bang on Slim2229!
And that is exactly what defines the difference between the "old school" RCMP members(and older,retired members)and what we have now.
The RCMP is never going to admit it,but many of the problems they have now come from changing the old standards that they followed for many years.
Now,they accept a lesser quality of education and general life experience, simply to fill the ranks.
There is no question that the RCMP lifestyle only applies to a certain type of individual...it always did,but now the process they once used to weed out the unsuited applicants no longer applies.
As well,they are rushed through depot and put on the street as fast as possible because of they are shorthanded.
Seems they have sacrificed enrollment quota's for quality in many ways.
One of the most interesting converstaions I have had,was with two retired, 30 year RCMP members.
These guys are pretty disgusted by what the force has become,and they are bang on as to the reasons it has happened!
Unfortunately,the RCMP of today no longer bothers to ask their opinions or cares what they think.
Too bad about that,because it is likely the old school RCMP members who could do much to restore the image and reputation that has been so badly tarnished.

In general, I think most of the blogger feels that the age and color of the skin does not matter, in general, most of the bloggers feel that the RCMP officer did do the right thing by tasering him.

So, Mr RCMP guy, you did the right thing in my opinion with the information which is available to us so far.

I think if CSTC wants any credibility, they better take the aboriginal boo hoo hoo off the table.

I have to chuckle at all the "experts" here..who have no training at all in this type of a situation. As for the politicians and the tribes, they are just jumping on the policitical bandwagon for their own self interests.

Well, I do have training in this type of situation and people: you have no idea how quickly a person with a knife can advance on you before you can react to protect yourself. The naysayers should try it: Get about 15 feet away from a buddy. Make sure your friend has his arms down by his sides "reasoning" with you, and make sure you do not have anything in your hands. Stick a toy gun or whatever in your pocket securely. Then all of a sudden have your buddy rush at you raising his arm as if to stab you, or even better just have him bring his arm up pointing towards you. Unless you are quick draw mcgraw you will not have enough time to stop from being stabbed or cut. If its a knife and you instinctively raise your arm to block, your tendons will be cut, rendering your hand useless, while you try to fumble for your sidearm....or pepper.or baton with your weak hand,while at the same time taking stabs from the knife.

Then your on the ground stabbed and wounded and this troubled 11 yr old has now decided to take your gun and use it on you because he's scared.

I get a kick out of all the people screaming how an 11 yr old should never be tasered...well everyone is still alive now aren't they?

If the member who had to deal with the youth was indeed faced with the boy out of control and bransishing a weapon and the distance between him and the boy was not safe then the member's deployment of the tazer was textbook correct and in accordance with the IMIM use of force.

People: Go to youtube...look up knife attacks...defences....the IMIM...educate yourself. The best defense against a knife attack is to run and get distance between you and the attacker. People who try to defend against a knife attack only end up gushing at the end.

I think your off the mark, slightly with the RCMP qualifications. I agree, that less experienced officers get sent to remote communities.

I believe the problem lies that the officers are trained to cover their ass, too much when they are out on patrol. It is a by product of our society. The reason the RCMP was top of their league, was that there was enough space between Black and White, with various shades of Grey. Now they have so many subsection to their conduct that if they do anything it is right and wrong.

So, we as Canadians have to ask ourselves what do we want. Someone looking after us, in law and order. or be left for the wolves like a third world country. Take a good look around the world. We are pretty lucky to have what we have!

Imorge;
Thankyou.
Andy:
Wouldn't it be nice if they brought back some of those 30 year retirees to mentor the young corporals and constables? I think it would work, but they are in fact too disgusted with the new approach.
The other problem is depot teaching control first, talk later. Not only depot but everyone in law enforcement is trained nowadays to control the threat first, talk later. When you look at the costs involved in officer injuries, time off, Doctor or dentist bills, I can understand that. But man, they've lost so much in not being able to talk an individual into doing the right thing. There are those times when you don't have that option, this may have been one of them. Just wish every recruit had their first posting out in the boonies learning how to cope on their own.

wow, lots of comments. Don't have time to read them all, but I will say that many who are quickly condemning the RCMP (or at least this member) have likely never experienced how totally messed up some of these kids are. Fetal Alcohol, Drug addicted at birth, in and out of foster homes, abuse, witnessing abuse etc etc. Many frankly have little chance of a normal life by the time they are 5. Sad but true. This was not likely the nice little boy from next door.
If he was able to stab a 37 yr old then we can only guess on his behavioural issues.

Slim...appreciate the thankyou. 24yr cpl here. Depot does not teach pure control as you put it. Everyone is taught de-escalation. The fact is: each situation is unique in its circumstances. Actually, prince george is a good spot for a graduate to learn policing as there is a myriad of experience to be gained in a relatively short period of time that puts the younger members ahead of others in less busy spots. I don't fully agree with placing young graduates "in the boonies" as that is the place where a more experienced member is needed....remember the 4 members who were killed in alberta and the member with only a years service killed in the northwest territories. Much of the problem does not lie with the regular members...it lays with the management of the rcmp...cutting training to its members, giving them crap equipment, all in order to make them look like effective budgeteers, when in fact at the fiscal years end, the upper management of the rcmp get large percentile bonuses based upon what they can save their division. Its the members in the field that need this training in depot and every three yrs there is operational skills training in chilliwack...every three yrs!
Its like a mechanic who does a motor re and re every three years...mistakes will be made..no body is perfect. I'm ranting about management here so I don't wish to get off topic concering the incident....so I will leave it at that.

The fact is if the kid did have FASD and was behaviorally out of control with a knife in his hand, in my experience with 24yrs dealing with people of different backgrounds and |I have dealt with many...there may have been nothing the member at the facility could have said or ordered etc at the youth that would have been effective.

The investigation is being done by an outside police force and I am sure it will be at arms length...naturally there will be the cries from the conspiracy theorists, but in truth the only place where cover up happens is in the management ranks. Opps did I say that?

Sorry, can not post, too busy laughing with
Imorge.

So many of us live such sheltered lives. We get to form opinions based a lot on the limits of our imaginations. The RCMP diffuse situations daily, do we hear about all of them? NO, we do not. We do not hear about the angry intoxicated man who wants to pulverize anything within reach, or about the woman high on meth,or the husband pulverizing the wife? Well, these things happen almost daily, can we surmise that they were diffused successfuly? I think so. Do we hear about the injuries the RCMP sustain in doing so? Again, no.

Sadly it happened, someone was out of control but this time it happened to be an armed child. That child intentionally injured someone, with a weapon and was apparently refusing to co-operate. Those are the facts. You cannot reason with an unreasonable child, that is also a fact.

As for Luggo and Teegee (blah blah), if you are so concerned, take a turn looking after the child, or another needy child, there are lots and lots of them. When you point your fingers, have a really good look at how many are pointing back at you.

As for the youth, lets all get together and say it together "awww, but he's had such a hard life".......

"That child intentionally injured someone"

Under modern laws, one has to be of sound mind in order to form an intent. Then there is a matter of it possibly being accidental.

The matter of whether it was an intentional act is yet to be proven. It has not yet been determined whehter that is a fact.

" .... and was apparently refusing to co-operate."

Now you have the wording correct. "apparently" is a correct word to use.

The limits of our imagination. Although some of us may use more common sense than imagination.

Our Province's Youth Advocate is disturbed by the "tasering" and wants to lead a separate investigation into the "events leading up to that incident". I say "Bravo", go back, way back. And while you're at it check into all the other children who are potentially in danger of that same "incident" happening to them because they keep getting "swept under the carpet" for their behaviour. Young children often misbehave as a call for attention, too often the adults in their lives find other reasons to "blame" for that behaviour. Ergo, the neglected child. They really do need more than just food, warm clothes and a warm place to sleep.

Littleguy;
as a Social Worker , how about helping our area? our children are tasered everyday in other ways. We have a needle van driving around handing out needles and condoms and crack pipes. How sick is that? one might say they need the help TOO BAD there is a needle exchange downtown. Our children need protected.