I wish Sinclair would stop making those stupid statements. Most British Columbias do not want teachers to have the power to keep their kids out of school.
In fact most British Columbians would like to see the teachers banned totally from striking and teachers pay based on a enough to keep teachers from leaving the province - no unions at all.
BC should be able to keep teachers by paying the lowest rate in Canada, because everyone wants to live in BC. If the BCTF had their doors closd, all the money the BCTF collects would stay in the teachers pockets - that should be a good raise in itself.
The government MUST fire all the teachers this spring on June 30 and start recruiting this summer. That way September would open without the trouble BCTF is promising.

I must admit that before the BCTF had my support but now they don't. They are asking for much more than what the market says they deserve. If jobs are so good in Alberta, then go. ( Both the Edmonton and Calgary school districts are laying off close to 3,600 teachers as they come to grips with declining enrollments). In my profession if I worked in Alberta I would be getting an additional $20,000 a year. Our family doesn't have any real strong ties to PG and could easily move there, but we don't as we like PG.

As I sit here marking final exams (class averages of 75 and 78% with no failures, thank you very much), I am very inspired by the notion you think I should be fired in two weeks.

Have you been in a school recently? A significant majority of teachers really care about the students. Yes, there are some bad apples (that I would gladly have fired if I could make that call!), but once again you insist on tarring us all with the same brush.

Do you think that firing all the teachers in the province is going to allow schools to open smoothly in September?!?! Now that one made me laugh. At my school alone the administration has spent the last two months sorting out timetables and hiring new teachers for the fall. I can just imagine the chaos that would result if every position was now open and needed to be filled. Are you going to volunteer to spend the entire summer (and probably most of the fall)getting the positions straightened out?!

Yes, I suppose BC should be able to keep teachers by paying the lowest rate in Canada - but what kind of teachers? The best teachers are those that are smart, caring and work hard...traits that would put them in demand in many different fields. Who would want to stay in a profession where the pay is relatively low, and they constantly reaceive abuse by people like YamaDooPolCat. Yes, the teachers that would stay are likely the minority you are slagging who couldn't find a job anywhere else.

Could you explain to me why you think teachers shouldn't have the right to strike on a limited basis (say, one day a week)? Is anyone's life put in danger? Would our economy ground to a halt? Nobody wants a strike, but I don't really understand why you think teachers should be put into a different category than other non-essential workers. (TRUST ME - no teacher wants to go on strike...the lost wages are almost never made up for in any settlement, and we're the ones who have to work harder to compensate for the lost class time.)

I am getting tired of the mentality of people comparing themselves to others in all aspects of society. From my understanding, BC teachers have the third highest wages in the country behind alberta and ontario. Like many of us, I could earn a 20% premium as an engineer in alberta and perhaps I will move there to realize the extra earning potential but by no means should I be able to go to my employer here and demand a raise just because someone makes more than me. It is unfortunate that the merit based system doesn't exist in the school system because in the private sector your wage is tied to your abilities and not to the person next to you. When I was a tree planter back in my early years of university I told my forman that I needed a break and that I was tired. He told me that for every job there are pros and cons and if you have more pros than cons you are doing pretty good. I ended up finishing the planting season and I never went back but I got one thing out of it. No job is perfect and in the teachers case if they don't like it, don't do it, if you don't like the pay, go somewhere else and remember that you have 3 million bosses who don't have the same job security, pension benifits and safety standards that the teachers have.

You tied your lot to the BCTF which has tied itself to one specific political party, i.e. the social-democratic NDP.

The BCTF agenda is too political and its strength is focussed far too much on fighting the Liberal government when in fact it would get much better results if:

a) it would leave political choice up to each member

b) it would not give unquestioning loyalty to ANY party

c) it would concentrate all its efforts on improving salaries and working conditions for all its members

d) it would stop other Labour organizations from interfering with its professional aims and goals by attaching them to some greater political struggle, such as social democracy vs. capitalism etc.

The problems of being aligned officially with one party and giving no respect to any other are obvious.

However, its up to the members to elevate the BCTF to a higher more intelligent level.

The public is tired of being threatened decade after decade with the prospect of strikes, walkouts and picket lines.

Thank you Diplomat for noting that the NDP is a social democratic party rather than socialist.

Responding to the notion that all teachers should be fired in a couple of weeks. Quite apart from that being illegal, and we all know how much "everyone must obey the law", how can that be done if education is an "essential service". Who will do the teaching when school resumes? Who will teach summer school? Really, some absolute nonsense comes out of some mouths.

What has actually happened? The teachers took a strike vote and it passed hansomely, so teachers are showing support for their union. The BCTF has NOT given strike notice. That means there is no strike, and will not be until 72 hours after they give notice, if they ever decide to do that. Negotiations are still going on, so why would there be a strike? A strike vote is a perfectly ordinary process during negotiations, designed to show support for the union. Let's at least allow collective bargaining to proceed. Who knows, they may even come to a mutually acceptable agreement.

The ultra right wing has been slandering the social democracy movement for decades. I see the big lie technique is still a favourite method for kb.

Your scenario is a ridiculous fantasy and will never happen. No government would be that stupid.

It's not that teachers don't have parent support. It's that nothing school related has parent support.

102 students in my classes and I had 4 parents show up for parent teacher interviews. The only people that care about the kids in my class are myself, and 4 parents.

smooth

It's not that teachers don't have parent support. It's that nothing school related has parent support.

102 students in my classes and I had 4 parents show up for parent teacher interviews. The only people that care about the kids in my class are myself, and 4 parents.

smooth

All these people bashing teachers. There are so many other workers in the world, some who form some sort of union and others who do not.

Can anyone tell me why teachers get bashed and nurses do not? Or doctors? or police?

or how about dental hygienists? after two years of education they get as much as teachers do after four years of education.

One service gets paid for primarily through taxes, the other gets paid for out of your pocket directly or through extended health benefits which one pays for through insurance which is paid for through their employment compensation which means you are also out of pocket.

A hygienist starts work at 8 or nine, does a 7 or 8 hour job, leaves the clinic and can forget about his or her work till the next day. A teacher typically has to bring work home.

Everyone's work gets paid for, and it is us who pays for it since it is a service for us. So what is the big beef?

You people probably don't tip more than 2% for the service when you go to a restaurant. Or maybe you figure you're all underpaid, like good olde Troschke, so no one else deserves a reasonable paycheck.

This prejudice you display is utter nonesense.

Smooth, I'll assume that because you have 102 students that you are a high school teacher and I'll say that you are wrong, because parents do care about their childrens education. What they don't care for is being herded into a high school gym and talking about their childrens grades when there are a dozen people standing directly behind them. Or how about being told "I really don't know who your daughter is, you'll have to go talk to the student teacher" What's that, where was this guy for the last couple of months? So with treatment like that you shouldn't be suprised that you only see 4 parents and one of them won't be me. We've chosen to take a differant route- phone and email- to communicate with our childrens teachers and it works very well. I'm not sure what you're idea of parent support of schools is because we have been active in our childrens schools since our eldest entered kindergarten eleven years ago and have seen hundreds of parents working with teachers and administrators to help improve our childrens educational experiances. What needs to happen at the high school level is a change to make them a more welcoming place for parents and until that happens you will only see 4 parents.

Of course, the social democracy "movement" does not and never has stooped to slandering the political aims and practices of any other parties or people in Canada!

To Ammonra ANY criticism of the NDP is sacrilege, blasphemy and vicious slander.

There are plenty of extremists on the left wing side of politics as well, naturally.

So, life goes on.

Science Teacher says .. shouldn't teachers have the right to strike on a limited basis (say, one day a week)?..
This teacher makes me feel bad about associating him with the BCTF, but like my history teacher always said, you have to look past the individual because even Hitler was a nice guy.
The BCTF has to go. Even this teacher is willing to reduce school down to 4 days a week for the powerful BCTF.
OK, if that's good enough for our kids, lets stick with 4 days a week, and pay accordingly.

Owl's comments about other workers was more inline with the union's solidarity nonsense. No one goes to the doctor or tooth pecker 5 days a week for 10 months a year. Owl put some original thought into it, or go back to school where they are supposed to teach you to think for yourself.

YDPC ....

okay, so let us take grouping together as a tactic to gain an advantage in the rest of society.

Are the members of OPEC who control the amount of oil the world has access to and its price, communist? Want to withhold your purchases of oil based products in order to show them who is boss?

How about softwood? Wanna go talk to the softwood protectionists lobbiests, who speak on behalf of mill owners, at the Capitol in Washington and tell them where to go. Wanna stop selling to them?

How about marketing boards that Mr. Bell is going to go to Geneva to talk accross the table to others in the world about? Gonna stop buying dairy and grain products?

You're right, one may only access the health care system a few times in one's life, and the dentist once or twice a year if you want to keep your teeth. What that has to do with the matter, however, is beyond me. These people provide services every day to the rest of us.

There are plenty of other examples where we rely on services virtually every day where similar situations occur - either workers getting together to use the strength in numbers approach or companies doing the same.

I asked a question of why people bash teachers? I think it has more to do with the fact that people feel they know how to teach. There is no professional barrier between teachers and their clients as there is between doctors, nurses, lawyers and other professionals we may come in contact with in our lives. Teachers are fair game. The others are not.

The privacy givemeabreak speaks about is an interesting example. How often have people on here gone to the emergency at the hospital or day surgery and have their privacy completely stripped from them as doctors and nurses speak about your situation with only a curtain between you and the patient 4 feet away from you? How often has someone protested to hospital administration about that lack of privacy? And if you have taken that step, has anything changed on your subsequent visit? Ditto for many dental offices. These places have never heard of the right to privacy legislation.

To Diplomat: The social democracy movement doesn't slander anyone, it is a movement not a person, although you are correct that some in it may do so, and when they do are rightly chastised for it.

I don't know about ANY criticism of the NDP being sacrilege, though. I have been known to make the (not so) occasional criticism myself as it happens. Contrary to what you believe I do not think that everything social democrats say and do is advisable. I do, however, think that the aims of the movement are more likely to bring about the kind of society in which I want to live. However, quite apart from that, the free and passionate "exchange" of ideas, as you and I seem to do often, is a service to democracy don't you think?

Ammonra, logic doesn't seem to be your strongest asset. Why is it alright for you to state: "The ultra right wing has been slandering the social democracy movement for decades." and it is NOT alright for me to reply:"... the social democracy "movement" does not and never has stooped to slandering the political aims and practices of any other parties or people in Canada!"?

The ultra right wing is not a person, according to you; neither is the social democracy movement, then, according to your definition.

However, people (persons) are always the ones who created and support the above.

The Ku Klux Klan as a movement is racist, for instance. If the racist policies resort to slandering others, it is slander even though it may be impossible to narrow it down to a person.

How do you know that non social-democratic movements don't chastise individuals who misbehave?

You automatically assume they never do.

OK diplomat, point taken about consistency. I should have worded it specifically to the one person. I was trying not to be offensive and obviously fell into a (self made) trap.

I never made the assumption that right wing groups never chastise their members who misbehave, nor did I infer it. Clearly they sometimes do, perhaps often for all I know. Sometimes they do not, though, and there have been several occasions when they obviously did not (and before you say it, I am sure the same applies to left wing groups).

givemeabreak (the poster)

I understand your concern for privacy. The school I am at does the parent teacher conference in each teacher's class. I also commend you for using email and phone. I have had a few contacts this way initiated by parents. I made first contact early in the semester by calling ALL parents with a progress report as soon as I had collected enough work. (Not in my contract for anyone keeping score).

Outside of the gym herding, is there any other way the school should be more parent friendly?

smooth

My wife wanted to have a meeting with one of my child's teachers this year. They emailed and phoned each other back and forth about some concerns and finally the teacher said "what is it you hope to accomplish with this meeting?" We had some concerns about certain things that were being taught in the class but the teacher was too "pig-headed" to listen to anyone. She thought she was right and that was it. She would not listen to anything we had to say. Why do you think people don't want to go to parent teacher interviews? Try to get off you high horse and more people would try to attend. Of all the teachers my three children have had there have probably been 10% that were actually there to help the kids. The others were there simply to get their money and run.

Looks like a nerve has been hit with this post.

Bottom Line.

Teachers are over paid for what they do. They are in fact well paid.

It is the BCTF and the Government who require teachers to attend 5 years university. Anyone over the age of fifty can tell you that elementary teachers in the fiftys and sixtys did not need more that 2 years University, or in some cases what was called grade 13.

So now that we force students to go to University for 5 years so we can call them professionals, we then have to pay them as professionals, when in fact they are not. They are School Teachers pure and simple and should be paid accordingly.

Asking for a 24% increase when teachers average $50,000.00 to $60,000.00 per year and more is ludicrous. They should not get anything and if they want to go on strike they can do so.

Most younger teachers are amazed at the amount of money they get paid for what they do. It is the older ones and the union types that are always whining for more.

Go to work at Wal Mart for $8.00 per hour and be restricted to 20 hours per week, with no benefits for a few months, and then look at your Salary, Benefits, etc and be happy. Your life is good, quit complaining and go to work.

Teachers do not have the support of most of the public, and in fact people are sick and tired of them always whining for more, and wanting to do less.

How do we break this us and them cycle? Everyone who has a job is providing a product or a service that someone is willing to pay for. So, the bottom line is that everyone who works for a living is necessary and an essential service.

So, why is it that some jobs pay so much more than others? Well, maybe the time spent learning and preparing for the occupation. Maybe the danger involved, or the environment that one must work in. Maybe it's the type of work that only a few people can do, like underwater welding or high rise steel workers, or Police or Fire Service workers.

There are many jobs that most can't do, aren't prepared to do, or aren't suited for. So, thankfully there is someone out there willing, able and gifted to do all types of work.

On the other hand, there is also the ability to pay. Some jobs pay extremely well and others don't. Some communities pay $12 per hour to work at Tim Hortons and others only pay $8.50 to do the same job.

Then there is the issue of supply and demand. Some places there are many willing and able workers. Other places, there is a shortage.

All of these factors help determine a rate of pay for a particular trade or profession, a particular business or a particular community.

The factor that is consistant with all occupations is the cost of living, of raising a family, of purchasing a home and of having a life. Who is going to say that anyone is more important, more valuable or more necessary than anyone else?

May you all earn what you deserve and be happy in your choice of occupations and careers. Chester

Anyone who has a problem with with sending their children to public school ought to explore sending them to private school.

Day school attendees at Shawinigan Lake School in Victoria only have to pay $17,500 per year.

Wanna get rid of your kid for most of the year? Then put him or her in residence there for a combined total of $31,120. No more need to take them to dancing, soccer, hockey or guitar lessons.

http://www.sls.bc.ca/feesschedule.html

Enjoy your bitchin' about teachers.

When you're done that lets talk about cops who make more than teachers, typically retire at 55 and spend their working time getting fat sitting in the patrol car and at Tim Hortons.

Chester, lots of high paying jobs are the result of an imbalance of economic power. The boiler makers Union for example for many years kept apprentice out in order to drive up the wages. Society is now paying the cost of that imbalance as the old guys are now dying off and we don't have replacements. It is essential and intuitive to the union movement that they trample other people and abuse their franchie power.

Old teacher do go back to school. They pick up a degree in something and it raises their pay level. It does matter one iota to the kids in the class though. It simply doesn't matter a hoot that the teacher read everything Chaucer wrote, just to get more money.

YDPC

Most teachers who go back to school themselves take it in education, thus making themselves better teachers.

The problem with disagreements on this board is that one side is usually arguing facts while the other does not. We would all be better served if you tried to back up your arguments with a statement of truth and not a flat our assumption, generalization, or fallacy.

Before you post you should think "what would owl do." Owl does a very good job of making a rational argument through referencing or specific examples.

smooth

Nah, the references I write on are personal observations. I don't have time to cruise the net. If I told you more your organization would fiquire out who I am and your thug friends would show up. I can tell you I asked a teacher why walk the picket line when you don't believe in what the "teachers" are doing.
The teacher said she was worried someone would slash her tires and make her life miserable. Where's Owl going to find that on the net?Ineresting eh, but I'm not going to give you the name until you can no longer hurt her.

Smooth, you like Owl's posts for the abstract, lifeless posts saying very little that requires anonymity. I like this board, it's the first time I can tell of what I have seen. Powerful people say and do the darndest things in front of children or waiters, or a fly on the wall.
That is until YDPC start telling, and then Smooth wants to stop the source. Hee Hee! Too late.

If Mr. Sinclair thinks he has the support of the general public, he's completely lost touch with those outside of his organization. Unfortunately labor unions are rarely interested about anything other than their own members. I wish that unions would at least admit such and stop pretending that they have the mandate of the people. Go ahead Jim and do a poll of non-members and see where you stand.

Here we go again. The Teachers annual extortion bid. Its really tough to think that a supposedly highly educated group can miss read the public so consistently. You do not have public support for your infantile actions. The public is sick of your demands and holding our children hostage yet again. You have turned a once honorable profession into a
self serving, deluded organization run by a overpaid union organization who's sole purpose is to cause labour unrest to justify their existance. The teachers who allow our students to be pawns in this game should have a close look in the mirror. 24% increase, plus benifits.....do you really think thats going to happen? Have you all been sniffing glue in the teachers lounge? Do we want these clowns in our classrooms? Over a decade since a negotiated settelment speaks volumes of this group.

And what kind of life lessons are Jinny and the BCTF teaching the children? Seeing their justifications for pay increases by cherry picking bits and pieces from other provinces (and even other professions!) reminds me of the bratty little kid who whines to his mom that one friend has an Xbox 360 and another gets to stay up past 10pm etc, etc and then pouts and cries until he gets his wish.

And what kind of life lessons are Jinny and the BCTF teaching the children? Seeing their justifications for pay increases by cherry picking bits and pieces from other provinces (and even other professions!) reminds me of the bratty little kid who whines to his mom that one friend has an Xbox 360 and another gets to stay up past 10pm etc, etc and then pouts and cries until he gets his wish.

Qtown. I think you have described our society. We have to forever get the latest gadget. It used to be called "keeping up with the Jones'" when I was younger. Why should teachers be any different? After all they are part of our system and they were once taught by their familes, their peers and their teachers.

I somehow have this idealistic view that many teachers actually try to change the way young people think about such lifestyle activities.

The problem is that very few of their students get support on the homefront from their parents. It's sort of like learning another language. You can learn all the grammar and vocabulary you want, unless you can put it to uses somewhere you will actually never learn how to speak it properly and eventually you forget it completely.

YDPC ... if you knew how to use the net, you would be able to find the information in under 2 minutes. The words "private school BC fees" come to mind in picking up the link I got.

I can tell you a lot of personal anecdotes as well. So can many others. The problem is they cannot be proven. You could simply make it up.

So, I know this person who was a really good teacher and there was this other teacher who had about 10 years of seniority and students were giving that individual very poor evaluations indicating that he provided wrong information and did not know what he was talking about. The newer teacher, on the other hand, was getting excellent evaluations.

There were too many teachers as students became fewer and fewer, so the junior "good" teacher was given layoff notice because the administrators were too lazy to follow up on the student evaluations. Besides, they wanted to keep a good relationship with the Union.

The Union did not support the new teacher who got fantastic evaluations from the students because they had to support the person who had seniority and had not received any poor evaluations from the administrators who were responsible to carry out such evaluations.

The confounding situation was that the "union" was also a "professional association" which had the duty to ensure that their membership was made up of people who were competent. However, they were also derelict in their duties in evaluating their membership.

So, incompetence on both the management and the union's part.

Such are personal anecdotes. Such are pieces which make up and sometimes shape one's life.

What I learn from such anecdotes that one hears every now and then is that incompetence, stupidity, laziness, whatever you wish to call it, is to be found everywhere, union and management and governing bodies. No one is immune to it, including all of us on here.

Finally, it sounds to me as if no on here has ever bargained before. Part of the idea on both sides is to aks for something they know the other side is not likely to accept. They also each know approximately what they are willing to accept and eventually they will end up at some agreement, even if it takes a lock-out or a strike.

Sort of like buying a car.
;-)

Owl, there is a slight difference between keeping up with the Jones' and demanding that somebody else give continually "give" you what your fine neighbors the Jones' have as well as the Smiths from across town and the Changs from Hong Kong.

Perhaps we act as if we've never bargained before. That's a fine analogy if you decide we let to include hostage taking and bomb threats. The BCTF knows that they in essence hold a huge portion of society hostage. Kids, parents, support staff and many more people are impacted by BCTF labor action and they know it and abuse it.

This is bargaining like buying a car? Hmmm.... if I had the ability to shut down the all the provincial highways if I didn't like the price I was being offered for my new Honda Civic I guess I'd use it. If I had this power and used it every year would you simply shrug your shoulders and say "Oh well, Qtown is bargaining at the Honda dealership again. I guess I'll just take the logging roads for the next couple weeks."?

Would you let me keep that power? Do you think I'd have the support of the average British Columbian?

Owl, there is a slight difference between keeping up with the Jones' and demanding that somebody else give continually "give" you what your fine neighbors the Jones' have as well as the Smiths from across town and the Changs from Hong Kong.

Perhaps we act as if we've never bargained before. That's a fine analogy if you decide we let to include hostage taking and bomb threats. The BCTF knows that they in essence hold a huge portion of society hostage. Kids, parents, support staff and many more people are impacted by BCTF labor action and they know it and abuse it.

This is bargaining like buying a car? Hmmm.... if I had the ability to shut down the all the provincial highways if I didn't like the price I was being offered for my new Honda Civic I guess I'd use it. If I had this power and used it every year would you simply shrug your shoulders and say "Oh well, Qtown is bargaining at the Honda dealership again. I guess I'll just take the logging roads for the next couple weeks."?

Would you let me keep that power? Do you think I'd have the support of the average British Columbian?

Qtown. "That's a fine analogy if you decide we let (sic) to include hostage taking and bomb threats."

I assume that is supposed to be "get" rather than "let".

I think you are going way overboard. Perhaps you would like to lie down on the couch and tell me where your relationship with your mother turned sour.
;-)

Oh good, the grammir cops are out.

Owl - don't let us get under your skin. Your posts are kind of impersonal and lifeless, yet interesting for their perspective.

It's too bad I can't tell why I am so close to the teacher thing, others besides myself will be hurt. That wouldn't be fair, so I tell it like it is and leave it at that.