When Jack Layton learns about the pine beetle while visiting Prince George, then what's he gonna do? He is gonna say, "Vote for me and I will build windmills and raise your taxes." Typical N.D.P. Apologies to Vanderzalm for the windmill reference.

That is way too simple - simple. Have you not noticed the lack of action from the Libs, both fed and prov., Stevie's Ottawa group and any other politician known to man. They are all the same - vote for me, then I will do as I please. Even change parties the week after the election.

Simple Simon really is. Set up a straw man then blow him down. You might try listening to Layton, it could overcome your obvious prejudice.

It's nice to see any Federal Politician visiting our area and seeing first hand the devastation the beetle has caused.

The more they see, the more they can understand how this has affected our communities. Thank you to Dunkley Lumber for supplying the helicoptor. Chester

ammonra.. I listened to Glen Clark but didn't vote for him. It only cost me $450 million dollars for ferries we don't have. I listened to Mike Harcourt, but didn't vote for him. At first he was against Expo 86 and wrote some letters to Europe. But Expo went ahead anyway.I listened to Dave Zirnhelt the forestry minister while the N.D.P. was in power. They had some pine beetles in Tweedsmuir park. But Dave said, "We don't log parks." I listen to all N.D.P. politicians, but I don't vote for them. Cool, eh? I didn,t mention the Carrier lumber fiasco when Mike Harcourt broke a contract. That only cost me around $140 million. How about that $18 million dollar road to the university? I do go on, don't I?

Cool, nice to read a simple clear post instead of the usual NDP apologists explainations that life is just to complex to grasp, and that's why we need people like JL to tax and spend.
Us simple folk just don't deserve our own money, hee hee!

You miss my point, Oh So Simple one, deliberately I am sure. You stated what Layton will say, not him. You stated what Layton will do, not him. It came out of your mind, not his. That is the straw man. Then you took the things that came out of your mind that you had assigned to Layton, and sarcastically repudiated them. That is the blow down.

You can ignore the NDP and argue against its leaders all you want, that is democracy, but taking the thoughts that originate in your little mind and pretending they come from someone else is not. Its called prejudice.

Jack Layton gave us Steven Harper and the return of the Mulroney style Conservatives - well done, Mr. Layton!

Next time, Jack, think first about the possible consequences before you join others in a feast of demonizing and condemnation.

Simple Simon, bringing up past boondoggles of the NDP raises the hackles of Ammonra who defends the NDP like JWs defend their Bible.

I also remember who let the pine beetles escape from the park when all the experts were urging immediate action - but, no NDP supporter will EVER admit it.

ammonra... I have to admit when I vote I do show a little "prejudice". Bummer, eh?

Isn't it strange how well some remember how much money was spent on ferry constrution by the NDP. But no one seems to remember that the $450 million spent created a lot of work for our ship builders and no one seems to remmeber that Campbell gave them to the Americans. The big mistake that Glen Clark made was to listen to the whiners that the ferries were costing to much money. H e should of pushed ahead and rectified any malfunctions. New ferries are now being built off shore and our ship yards get the finger.

And Diplomat whats this about Layton giving us Harper ? His 34 MP's control our Government give me a break. Seems to me there are at least three other major parties in Parliament.

You are also wrong when you say, all the experts were urging immediate action to do something about the pine beetle. Who are the experts that you are refering too? The experts that I have read about did nothing of the kind. They tell us that no matter what action would of been taken the conditions (climatic, ecology) were right for the beetle to multiply and here is the website to check with the experts and I have given you this website before now read it. I'm tired of repeating myself. http://mpb.cfs.nrcan.gc.ca/research/projects/completed_e.html

http://www.pfc.cfs.nrcan.gc.ca/cgi-bin/bstore/searchpubs_e.pl?N%20CatalogNumber_IL01::Note=mpb

These are Canadian Forest Service sites on which the information is limit less for all our arm chair experts to view.

Now go out and smell the roses in your garden Diplomat.

Once again Diplomat, you are talking out the back of your head. Harper was foisted on us by the Reform-CRAP-Alliance-Conservative party. It was in an election that many of you who now don't like him were insisting you wanted. As it happened, I did not agree with Layton at the time, and I do recall that I cautioned patience when you were all gung ho. Your memory must be good enough to remember that, it was only a few months ago.

It is now, in hindsight, easy to blame the NDP for the beetle problem, and since they were in power at the time they have to accept responsibility. At the time, however, it was an argument as to whether Provincial Parks should be left alone or logged for economic reasons. Up until then parks had always been left alone to nature, with no problems. In hindsght, which is always absolutely 100% accurate, they should have been logged, but nobody foresaw the effect of global warming on weather patterns in Northern BC, not even the logging companies who so badly wanted the trees in the park. Nobody could forsee the extent of the problem in the (then) future.

I would also note that the Liberal party has been the government for about 6 years, during which the problem has exponentially expanded. They have not been able to do any more about it than the NDP could, even though they made a big deal about it during their first successful election. Humans are not more powerful than nature, and I suspect that we would have this problem whether the park had been logged or not. The fundamental problem is the change in winter weather temperatures, and the NDP did not cause those to get warmer.

Now having said that, how does it stop the beetles? It doesn't. The problem is still there, and the practical problem is how to deal with it. If Layton, as a politician, can help then why would you want to turn that help down? Are your anti-NDP prejudices so strong that you would cut off your nose to spite your face? That is what it sounds like.

Finally, it wasn't the comments about past NDP actions that irritated me. It was Simpleton's putting words in Layton's mouth then using those words to criticise Layton, a typical proof of prejudice.

Layton had a very productive arrangement when he supported the minority Liberal government, by his own admission. He could have continued that and awaited the outcome of the Gomery Inquiry and the election that was to follow immediately after.

Instead, LAYTON made more indignant noises about the "culture of corruption" than all the other politicans combined. Perhaps you can remember that, if you gave it a try?

Sorry that you are already tired of repeating yourself.

I have read enough contradicting pronouncements about the escaping of the primary beetle infestation to know that at least they should have pounced on the infested area and tried to eliminate it. Since they declined to do so we will never know if it might have worked.

Even you have to admit that logging in a park was a complete political no-no and so nobody in the government was willing to take the political risk of a possible environmentalist backlash by going in and attacking the thing as aggressively as possible.

It was the NDP that took the ferries out of service as they were unfit for the job. The Liberals put them up at auction as it cost a pile of money for several years in a row for moorage fees and insurance.

Perhaps YOU can go to some easily found websites and get the correct information about that.

You may not like my opinions but you are not going to influence or change them with snide remarks.

Have a good day!

One slightly off topic point, Diplomat. On two occasions you have made references about Jehovah's Witnesses when replying to posts of mine. Is there some subtle point you are trying to make? If there is, I just don't get it. On the other hand, are you simply religiously prejudiced as well?

One more point, about the ferries. The Liberals were offered $60 million for them before the auction. They turned it down and insisted on a no reserve auction. They sold them to their buddy boys for a few million each, and their buddy boys turned out to be the same people who had offered $60 million. That bit of Liberal incompetence cost the taxpayer about $50 million. You never mention that, ever, for some reason.

Jack Layton , like all N.D.P.'ers like to raise taxes and spend. AND he did say that he would like to erect windmills. That is what he said when he was running for the leadership of the N.D.P. I read the "Regina Manifesto" and it made me afraid of socialists. I wondered aloud on more than one occasion if Good ol' Jack has read it and agrees with all of it or part of it. Socialism did wonders for the U.S.S.R. Glad I don't live there.

Jenny Kwan is another piece of work. Ha ha. My brother met her once. He said if Chinese had blondes, she would be a blonde. She never has had an original thought, so I understand. A reporter once said that the only way she found how to get to Prince George was to get off the plane. I am sure with her prescence with good ol' Jack , she added credibility and meaningfulness to his visit here.

Maybe a lot of years down the road Mr. Jack Layton will become an opportunist, see the errors of his ways and become a Liberal just like good ol' Bob Rae did. Remember. You heard it here first. Ain't politics grand?

To Simple Simon:-

Windmill generated electricity is in use in many countries, and is a modern clean system for energy production. Look at Great Britain if you want to actually learn something about it, instead of poohpoohing it from ignorance. It is one of the waves of the future.

The USSR was communist, not socialist and definitely not Social Democratic. Now I don't expect a Simple anyone to be capable of understanding the difference, but Sweden is a modern Social Democratic Country with the highest standard of living in the world. That is closer to the political philosophy of the NDP and Layton.

Personally, I have never read the Regina Manifesto. I just believe in equality and the right of all citizens to share in a country's wealth instead of shoveling it into the pockets of political friends. What more is necessary?

As for your comments about Jenny Kwan, well, I guess your true colours are very clear.

Well Diplomat you may as well start somewhere even if it is an easily found website. The stuff your giving us is just the old worn out garbage we have been getting for years. You don’t like Harper and you don’t like Layton so I guess you like the liberals.

First off Gordo in our province is not a liberal so tell us about the job the Federal bunch did for us the last few years they were around. I could dig up all the ills of past governments but what good would it did.
And this is not a snide remark it a plain fact your just going around with your head up your ass. So go out and get a life.

The Tweedsmuir Park fable is an interesting one because of the way people have created a political fantasy from it.

Here are some of the words on the the linked site:

"While it is true that portions of Tweedsmuir Park were centres of beetle population expansion, it is not true that this was the only centre of population expansion. To understand this, it is important to remember that mountain pine beetle naturally occurs in all pine forests in British Columbia at all times. Usually, population expansion is kept in check by cold temperatures. Current conditions (mild winters and abundant habitat) are such that beetles have been able to flourish and multiply rapidly.

Beetles also generally move in a west to east and northwest to southeast direction on prevailing winds and therefore the expansion has been progressing east and south. This has lead some to conclude that the most westerly beetle population centre is the "source". In truth, multiple centres of population expansion and movement to the east and south have occurred.

The epidemic in Tweedsmuir was only one of the many places that this epidemic started. There are epicenters (mountain pine beetle hot spots) south of Quesnel, near Fort St. James, south of Williams Lake, near Princeton and in the East Kootenays. Mountain pine beetle spreads fastest in old growth lodgepole pine stands. While many parks have old growth forest types, many other areas outside of parks have old growth lodgepole pine stands. The Ministry of Forests undertakes mountain pine beetle surveys across British Columbia each year and posts maps of the areas of infection."

http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/bcparks/conserve/pine_beetle/pine_beetle.html

When you read the rest of the site, with information about the handling of other infestations in the earlier decade and in different areas, you may begin to understand that the one issue that does not show up is someone warning that an extraordinary amount of money needs to be spent because the scientists can no longer guarantee the cold winters which used to exist during the life of the european population in this area of the world. That is not to say that such an amount of money would have changed anything either.

The epidemic is more a consequence of global warming than it is an effect of political party directed policies.

FOresters often speak of natural disturbances and what one can do to prepare for them. Sort of like talking about how to prepare for hurricanes, earthquakes, tornados, floods, etc.

The solution is simple - don't put population bases in areas which are prone to such natural phenomena. In the case of natural disturbances in forests - don't build an industry and a population base around a natural resource which has an unpredictable longevity.

But those obvious solutions go against human nature. We tend to prefer expediencey, take the gamble, and deal with the conesquences when they happen.

We always get the desperate politicians trying to resurrect their careers, making promises they can't keep and making plans they don't have the authority to act on. Jack Layton might as well be juggling flaming torches because at least he would be providing us with some entertainment instead of wasting our time and his money.

the reasonableman and desperate politicians? All I can say is "ditto". Is this a great country, or what. Eh?

If Jack Layton was Prime Minister, pigs would fly. One did in an episode of the Simpsons. But that doesn't count.

I love reading ammonra's posts, especially after you guys have cranked him up in to full apologist mode! Hee hee.
Hey everyone don't forget Ujal Distane (sp?), our EX-Premier, didn't he scamper over to the Federal Liberals?
What's JW? Isn't that Jack Wabbit? The one that's bouncing around crying "Look at me, look at me!"

I always know when I have made some significant points. All the [i]ad hominim attacks begin[/i].

I asked a fervent NDP supporter about the
defection of former NDP Premier Ujjal Dosangh to the Liberals.

Answer: He wasn't a REAL NDPer! Very slick answer, indeed.

Now, if the party convention that elected Ujjal
to become the leader couldn't tell the difference or was simply fooled - how can an outsider be convinced about ANYTHING that the party says?

Maybe he's taking a leaf from Gordon Campbell's book. You know, infiltrating another party, in his case the Federal Liberals instead of the Provincial Liberals. Now if Rae wins the leadership......
:-)

Thanks Owl,you said it all. Notice how the posts switched from Pine Beetle back to politics when some facts were presented. Some people will never learn they have their own agenda are caught in a box and will continue to to live in the past.

Cheers.

Ammonra: "On the other hand, are you simply religiously prejudiced as well?"

Ammonra: "I always know when I have made some significant points. All the [i]ad hominim attacks begin[/i]."

In case you did not notice, you have come full circle (hee-hee) and hoisted yourself on your own petard!!!

Talk about "personal attacks"........

How very sweet it is, indeed!

Yes kimbo, I noticed that very much.

There are few here who are capable of reasonable debate. They are blinded by this stupid left wing right wing fight.

Divide and conquer.

Oh, please, diplomat. Who are you trying to convince?

You gratuitously mentioned Jehovah's Witnesses twice in responses to me. Both times the context was negative, and both times the reference had absolutely no relevance to the discussion.

Why?

Owl:" They are blinded by this stupid left wing right wing fight."

Ok, read the very first two postings commenting on this "Federal NDP Leader in Region" thread.

Then, read the third one.

Bingo!... the theme ("stupid left/right wing argument") has been set.

Actually it was supposed to be about the pine beetle, I think.

Turn on the TV and go to the Channel of the B.C. Legislature when it is in session.

What do you see: BOTH sides fighting the same "stupid left wing right wing fight" ad infinitum/ad nauseam.

"Some people will never learn they have their own agenda are caught in a box and will continue to to live in the past."

THAT is politics in B.C. whether we like it or not.

In the Legislature they are living in the same box, and, as Maxwell Smart would say: "Loving it."

Unfortunately no other party gets elected in B.C.
because of "this stupid left wing right wing fight" and whose fault is that?

Ammonra, go back and properly read what I posted before. No negative comments were made about the JWs. It is a fact that they are very determined about getting their message across and it is within the law to do so.

Now can the b.s. and quit making unreasonable accusations.

I get your point diplomat, but the themes accessbile thorugh the news item can be several.

Those themes picked up by those of us in the "Peanut Gallery" are very much a reflection of us than the author or the news item.

Themes I can see:

1. Jack Layton will join Jenny Kwan (hmmmm .. how are things on the "home front")

2. Federal NDP leader will join Provincial Economic Development critic (hmmm ... provincial party in the pockets of the federal party?)

3. Dunkley Lumber has donated the use of their helicopter (hmmmmmm the Novacs are NDP supporters?)

4. Layton is trying to learn first hand about the extent of the damage being done by the mountain pine beetle. (hmmmm ... he has a long trip ahead of him .... get a faster method of air travel .... get some satellite imagery and let your fingers do the walking.

5. Kwan has been meeting with Quesnel officials in an attempt to come up with a plan to diversify the Quesnel economy when the effects of the beetle become a fact. (A plan to diversify when the chit has hit the fan is far too late. They should have started to diversify by now in order to have businesses in place and running successfully when the projected downturn starts. With forestry businesses failing or experiencing considerable downsizing, we do not need diverification businesses failing as well)

6. The group also hopes to be able to see the effects of a forest fire burning west of Quesnel. (hmmmmmm .. forest fires 101 ... isn't that better left to foresters? Is there really a need to know here? Next thing you know, they are going to walk through a hospital and watch operating room procedures. Do these people not have any imagination? Maybe they'll have to take a space shuttle ride before they support further money to space research.) whole bunch of themes from that one ... :-)

7. Tomorrow a fund raiser will be held for the provincial NDP and although Jack Layton will be attending, the two parties are not connected. (hmmmmmmm .... ) back to point 1 ....

;-)

I mean, there is enough here for us to create at least 100 posts ..... let's shoot for the record ....

Hey Owl, you have a great sense of humour! I like it!

:-)

The part of Owl's point 7 saying the two parties are not connected is a bit confusing to me. The NDP has always made the point that membership provincially meant you were a member federally as well, and vice versa. The NDP has never made a distinction in the past.

I suspect what is meant is that provincial donations are not shared federally, as they used to be in the past. The federal rules were changed a while ago, and donations must be made specifically to each. If not, there has been a major shift in policy.

Hey, don't knock a ride in a helicopter, especially looking at a fire. The politians really enjoy a nice interesting tour. You would not believe how much some of these people just don't know. I've flown federal and provincial ministers on heli tours and usually, no matter what party they are currently with, there is always something for them to learn.

Lots of these people have to spend too much time listening to the ammonra's of the world, and it's important for them to get out and have a look at what it really takes to keep the world feeding them.

But what would you do, YamaDooPolCat if you couldn't snipe at me. At least I keep your little grey cells busy (as Poirot says), and bring a little life into yours.

And here I thought farmers of the land and the sea were feeding us.

;-)