One hundred and thirty three million for one ferry? Just think a big part of that will go to german union workers. We just havt to be differnt don't we. And what will it cost to replace the other ferries in the fleet? More tax dollars to foriegn corporations.

Not only do we give away our natural resources to foriegn corporations but we also give away the little profit made from these resources. What happens when there are no more trees and the well has gone dry ? How long can it last?

Cheers

Here is their web page .... partly in English

http://www.fsg-ship.de

If you click on "RoRO's grow" to the left, you can see that we are getting this news a bit late. The page already has BC ferries as a customer on it and will be following 3 construction yards as the project starts its building phase.

To your point. This is the diversification we need to promote in BC. We need our own vessels and should be building our won vessels. Only by doing so, will we ever have the opportunity to build them competitively for other countries. In order to do that, we may have to subisidize our indutry in the beginning.

We need to be more aggressive in competing with the rest of the world in manufacturing.

BTW, I forgot to add that the site also displays some of the education they do in that company to ensure that they have sufficient qualified workers.

The have 16 spots for training such specialized trades people. click on "ausbildung". It is in german, but if you run it through a translator, this is what comes out in broken english.

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fsg-ship.de%2F9ausbild%2Fmain.html&langpair=de%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF8

looks like the company is already building 3 vessels for BC ferries and that they have their site geared up to show those vessels as soon as there is something to see with respectg to final design and actual work starting in the sheds.

http://www.bcferries.com/news/files/06-028bcferriesannouncesnamesforthreenewsupercvessels.pdf

So, 4 vessels. Could a Canadian firm have built these 4 vessels to the standards expected, on time, and no more than 10% more (if we think subsidizing local firms would be good policy)

http://www.bcferries.com/news/files/05-082bccompaniesawardedsupercdesigncontract.pdf

Interiors designed by BC design firm ..

Notice that it is a Canuck company with offices in LA and the UK .... do not know if anyone subisdized them or whether they simply got where they are because they offer competitive services with other such companies in the USA and the UK ...

Look what happened when they were built In canada; BC to be more accurate. Boats that were supposed to be fast weren't so fast after all because of design flaws. With little or no experience i do not want to have another "FAST FERRY" experience.

Well said, Chloe! We had our kick at the cat, FastCat, more specifically.

It was a total embarrassing disaster and it is no wonder that BC ferries are being ordered from abroad because no one wants another over budget, not on time, not able to perform fleet of duds silently rusting away at anchor.

There are several countries that have been building ships of the RoRo classification (Roll on - Roll off) for a very long time, successfully.

The above named company has been building ships since 1872 and is owned by the largest bulk carrier company in Europe, operating 172 carriers with over 7 million tonnes capacity.

Delivery will be on budget, on time and with a performance guarantee, key ready.

I have no problem with Germany getting the contract to build new ferries for BC. They will be well built. Problems is, just like their cars, we will need a German engineer onboard for every ferry to make any needed repairs. We may have to wait weeks for a new part to be shipped overseas. Standardization isn't their game.

Well, it could be worse. Remember the Lada?

Really not much different from state of the art sawmill, pulping, and mining machinery.

One has to be prepared for it with tech people on call and on the next plane and equipment shipped in a similar fashion for those parts which may have known short lifecycles being held in BC.

Preplanning helps a lot. Does not take care of all cirucmstances ..... such as running the ship without an active GPS, striking rock, and sinking.

;-)

Yeah sure give the jobs to foreign companies and leave our shipbuilders in B.C. out of work. A typical Liberal move. We don't even get a chance to bid. Lets face it, Campbell hates unions and the middle class working person. The economy is doing so well we have to give our jobs away, wait a minute the only important jobs are for 2010. Once that's over watch out, we'll be in debt for years to come. Our childrens childrens children we'll be paying for the rest of their lives. How much to have the ship moved from Germany to B.C. anyway?

>How much to have the ship moved from Germany to B.C. anyway? <

Zero dollars. They (all of them) will be delivered to B.C. and extensive training of operating and maintenance personnel is included as well.

Canada has had trade surpluses year after year. We sell to other countries what they wish to buy from us and we buy from them what we require.

Simple. It has worked out to Canada's advantage decade after decade and just because we need a few ferries every 15 or twenty years we can't justify making billion dollar investments in an attempt to create a B.C. ship building industry that may never build a single ship on time and on budget without huge government subsidies.

How would you keep them busy and profitable (dirty word?) after they have built a couple of ferries? They would have quite a few lean years during which they would be attempting to lure business away from well established ship yards in Poland, Germany, Finland, Sweden, South Korea, China, Indonesia and so forth, just to name a few.

I really would like to hear the bellyaching and bitching if the present government would give private industry hundreds of millions to get a B.C. ship building venture up and going, and keep it going.

Where are the facilities, trades people, engineers and so forth? Not in B.C., that's for sure! In Washington State?

I really do pity your endless negativity and often pointless criticism.

Seems there is a lot of information on how well foreign ship builders can do the job of building ferries for the BC tax payer but there is no mention of how much the total cost will be. This mornings CBC news tell us that the first three ferries will cost 542 million and another 133 million for the last ship. Nice bit of change for the german ship builders.

It is unfortunate that we do not seem to have the vision of developing secondary industry regardless of what our trade deficits are. How is it that we can we be so short sighted with no vision of our future.

Cheers

http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/content/may2006/gb20060512_131557.htm

I agree that Canada, especially the west, needs to become more of a world competitor in some manufacturing sectors. Shipbuilding on a mega scale, however, is a tough nut to crack. There are other countries that are lightyears ahead of us and have been traditionally.

Unlike the growth of Bombardier as a world power in Avionics and LRT systms as an outgrowth of their snowmobile business, those who manufactured canoes in Canada did not have such visions.

C'est la vie. Let's build on what we do well. The small shipbuilding industry is likely already being oversubsidized. Stick the money into helping an industry which stands a better chance of success.

http://www.bombardier.com

;-)

owl: "Shipbuilding on a mega scale, however, is a tough nut to crack."

Well said. Bombardier is a world leader in LRT systems, has a subsidiary plant in Germany and supplies rail cars and subway cars to many countries, including Germany and other European countries.

B.C. Ferries also just ordered a small new ferry from a shipyard in the U.S. of A.

Apparently 22 aging vessels of the B.C. fleet will be replaced in the next 15 years.

The first of the three new ferries will arrive from Germany in December 2007 and the other two within six months later.

If I recall correctly Bombardier recieved millions of dollars from the Federal Government to keep them afloat. Did some of that money end up in Germany?

There is no reason why the the ferries could not of been built in Vancouver. Will we continue to shell out money to forgien builders for the next 15 years to keep a ferry fleet going. Its the crap about socialism verses capitalism that creats a lot of political friction and destroys any vision of moving ahead and having a productive manufacturing base.

If we controlled the out flow of profit from our country we would have more then enough to support and provide employment for our labour force. But I guess that would be socialism. I guess the only vision we have is to do it "my way" and maybe I can make a few bucks on this deal instead if thinking lets all do it together.

Is this another one of Campbell's ways of trying to destroy our unions, by not keeping the money at home and paying out elsewhere?

Boy a lot of geniuses here today, a bunch of shipbuilding experts. BC hasn't been known for building boats since they were made out of wood. We are known nowhere for building boats. We don't have the ability to compete, let alone the ability to actually supply the necessary skilled labor, etc. We have the ability to service and repair and that's all we do well. We are known only for producing high quality custom luxury yachts. That's it !

Hey, I got an idea ! Let's piss away even more of our out-of-control taxes by subsidizing businesses that have absolutely no ability to compete or sustain themselves, just for the sake of saying "We did it !"

Economics 101: If there is no money in it, outsource it or don't do it at all.

Diplomat said it all, but for the rest of you, maybe you should just move right in with Glen Clark and dream about a day when BC will be an internationally known shipbuilder, all your friends will own casinos, and everybody will have nice decks on their house and their cabins.

Part of being an internationally competitive Province and Country is do what we do well, and make money from it, outsource and trade for things that are just simply cheaper or more easily produced elsewhere. Do you guys buy $5000 worth of hockey cards just so you can say you got them all by yourself, or do you trade with your friends to get them all ? Trade off what you don't need for things that you do need.

Wow ! That sounds remarkably like the start of the fur trade, that's an incredible concept.

Just so you know, almost none of the engines or mechanicals are produced in North America, they are all overseas and yes we do have the expertise here to work on them. Nobody flies in every time they need to change the oil. Besides, marine diesels are easier to repair than a car engine.

Shoulda sold the fast ferries to Alcan. Sure would make a lotta sody pop cans. And maybe saved electicity too.

Just pay attention to the "reasonableman."
How can people argue with common sense?
Get the damn things built where the job can be done by experts.
Getting them here and in the water is when they can start paying for themselves and provide the services required.
Some answers just make too much sense.
And some people you just cannot reason with.

reasonable man perhaps should rethink his name...

Reason detached from balancing qualities is irrational. The promise of a sensible society lies in the potential reality of a wider balance. And in that equilibrium reason has an essential place.

There is very little reason in the contribution 'reasonable' man has made to this topic. One could call it a rant with very little accuracy. Hardly what makes someone reasonable.

Take for instance the claim that the last time BC was known for building boats was when they were made out of wood.

If anyone currently uses the ferries from Tsawwassen to Swartz Bay (victoria) one would be riding on ferries built in BC. Last time I checked, they are made of steel. Their performance is exceptional. Many of the older ferries in the fleet were also made in BC. None is made in wood.

The two Seabuses operating between N.VAn and Vancouver have over 20 years of operating back and forth with almost no downtime. Both were built in Vancouver. Some of the sophisticated defense devices installed on Canada's Navy frigates were built here. The submarines bought by England and 'rebuilt' back east in the Maritimes are now being properly refitted in Victoria's shipyards.

In the fishing industry, when boats went from wood to fiberglas and then to aluminum/steel, BC shipbuilders were building them fast and furious.

The figures for job loss due to exporting public contracts overseas (outsourcing) is for every $1 billion of outsourcing, 15,000 jobs are lost.

The $675 million contracted to FSG in Germany provides a boost to the German economy financed by BC taxpayers. The money will have to be borrowed and since BC Ferries is not a 'gov't' corporation, it will have to find financing in the marketplace.

A loan of $675 million amortized over 30 years could cost over $400 million in interest. The $675 million capital expenditure will cost BC taxpayers over $1 billion over the lifetime of the loan.

So, shouldn't BC tax dollars be spent in BC to benefit BC companies. workers and their families and the BC economy?

What is even worse than the ferry contracts going to a state subsidized German shipbuilding industry is the amount of money (again, billions of taxpayer dollars) both our provincial and federal governments are willing to shell out for the Gateway and Pacific Gateway transportation infrastructure projects.

The projects are mainly there to provide mobility for the shipping of goods through the Greater Vancouver region. Both export and imports will be provided with an almost seamless journey through the lower mainland to markets both overseas and throughout N. America. Trouble is, the companies that will benefit the most will pay the least for the infrastructure.

Imports from China into Canada in 1995 was just $6.3 billion. In ten short years the value of imports from China into Canada rose to $29.4 billion. Problem: exports to China from Canada rose by only $3 billion in the same 10 years to just $6.6 billion leaving a trade deficit with China in the realm of over $23 billion!

Substantial, you say, my reasonalble man. Think of this...every $1 billion in trade deficit means the loss of 15,000 jobs.

Both federal and provincial governments have estimated that container freight alone from China in the next 10 years will increase by 450%. If we are incapable of making anything for ourselves, how will we finally pay for all these imported consumer goods flooding our nation? At what point will the wallet empty to economies elsewhere?

And when the Olympic bubble bursts in the spring of 2010, what will happen then?

Will we continue to finance and pay for manufacturers and workers from other countries to do our work for us or will we do it ourselves?

Not only balance makes for reasonable discussion but having some knowledge helps too.

Good points, orville!
BUT-what happened with those Fastcats built in B C.
Were they proof of great spending of our tax dollars?
Now tell us how many years it will take to pay that debt off-and we have sweet nothing!
Give it to us straight!
Much appreciated.

Thanks Orville.

We are replacing the fast ferries that cost $400 million with ferries that will now cost us $542 million. The reason we have sweet nothing is because the present government chose to give them away for $19 million. Is that so difficult to understand?

There also was no reason to try and retify some of the problems that existed on the fast ferries. We should of spent few more bucks but the political rhetoric was to great to move on with a reaonable solution. And this is whats going on right now on this website. There are people witha very narrow vision that are driven by political ideolgy.

It is not unusual for projects to run over budget. Some of the pulpmills that were built in BC during the 60's for around $80,000,000.00 of that day would not produsce a lot of pulp for up to a year to get the bugs ironed out.

Cheers.