Yawn.

double yawn

Now that is typical of you guys. When the hell are you going to celebrate new beginnings in this City. Would you rather see the University close?

Don't worry about it Runner.

They don't want to jeoprodize their Guiness record for the least number of days spent inside a University.

Most people cannot spend a lot of time in a University as they must spend their time working and paying for it. This University Costs taxpayers somewhere in the area of $60,000,000.00 per year to run, and is a haven for high paid Teachers and Union Workers., approx 700 Faculty and Staff.(Thats one Teacher or Staff Member for every 5 FTE Students. It has somewhere in the area of 3500 Full Time Equivilant students, including foreign students. Not much for a University that has now been here for 15 years. (Do we still call it new).

This University was politically motivated, and was never built on the basis of need. It will never be shut down, however from a strictly realistic point of view, shutting it down should certainly be a consideration.

Some of the smaller Universitys back East are having to consider shutting down or amalgamating with other small Universitys to survive, because of the decline in students.

With the decline in enrollements in School Districts in North Central BC over the last 10 years. (Schools shutting down etc:) We can expect a sharp decline in the number of students graduating in the next 5 to 10 years and by extension a decrease in the number of students available to attend this University.

Trent University in Ontario has an enrolment of about 6,500. Peterborough is about the size of PG. The City is also dominated by Ottawa and Toronto and, other than cost of living, small town university feeling, and inability to get into some of the more well known universities, there is really no reason to go there.

As I keep saying, BC does not do its share of educating the people who live here. We are net importers of university and college educated people. The maritimes are net exporters of educated people.

Again, to turn this City and even the province around on this way of thinking, one needs to get into the question of how does one change people's attitudes?

I can give you more examples than just Trent. I picked it out of a hat of small town universities. There are many in the country. Until UNBC, this province had zilch, zippo, niente. An indication of where BC's head was at, no matter what party was in power. Over the past 10 years, BC has finally been doing what Ontario did in the 60's. You can't run an economy these days with so few higher educated people. Industry has changed and so must we.

There was a time when the University was an alternative for many folks. The reason was that there were no jobs for them. So, the government allowed and encouraged people to take money out of their RRSP's tax free to pursue post-secondary education.

This was a short term fix for some, the fortunate ones who already had money in their RRSP's. That strategy just temporarily changed the focus from education back to retirement planning further down the road.

But, it did take some of the pressure off the government regarding their perceived expectation to provide jobs for everyone.

Of course, many of us know that it's businesses who provide jobs, not government. I am pleased that we have a University in PG. Especially for many students who may not have had the resources to attend a University out of town.

I will continue to support more courses that address the employment needs of our community. And I will not support those that do not. Chester

The ceremony itself will probably be a yawner. The arrival of a new president at UNBC is important to the university and to the community.
The installation story seems to have prompted people to air their grievances against the university. Where did those feelings come from? What prompted the upset?

Its not so much a grievance against the University as it is a grievance against those that advocated building it in the first place. Contrary to popular opinion not everyone in Prince George was in favour of this *Extravaganza*.

Some people were of the opinion that the building of the University with Campus's stratigically located in various ridings was done by the Social Credit Government in a vain attempt to get re-elected. When the Socreds lost the election the NDP took over appointed a bunch more high rollers to the board of directors and carried on the University concept.

Some people were of the opinion that building the University in its present location would mean that the City would have to run water and sewer lines to the University, and once you had water on Cranbrook Hill the property values would increase substaintially. Its interesting to note that the latest big real estate venture around the University is being proposed by 14 land owners. I suspect some of these people have held the land since before the University was built.

Some people were of the opinion that there are not enough people in North Central British Columbia to support a University, and that those seeking a University education could go to Uvic, Simon Fraser, UBC, or the University of Edmonton as they had been doing for the past 30/40 years.

The cost to build this University from scratch, along with the 60Million per year to run it amounts to a horrendus amount of money to educate a small number of people. Clearly the concept was not well thought out, and here we are 15 years later facing a drop in enrolments that will probably continue for the next 10 years or more.

You will not hear it from the politicians, or from those who work at the University, but the fact of the matter is we now have a University that is facing a decline. I for one am not aware at this time how this can be turned around.'

It certainly cant be done by wishful thinking, which seems to be the flavour of the day in this town.

I am of the understanding that the UNBC site had been set aside some many years ago. When the idea first was brought up in the mid 1980`s I recall some infighting to have it over at foothills and north nechako. Of course people will want it or not, depending on who would make a profit.
I recall when SFU was built, boy did land values all over the damned place rise, particularly in back water Coquitlam.

As for demographic changes, yes they are coming. My kids decided to have fewer if any children. Thus fewer kids in elementary schools. Might I call it the tsunami effect.

As for wether the university is worth it or not, I just can`t comprehend a society that shuns higher education.
As for how this whole idea started, thank stan hagen. He was quoted on CBC twenty odd years ago about how all we did up here was count trees and coal..............months later the Socreds put Bruce Strachan in as Advanced Education Minister, and a lot of us coughed up 5 dollars rather than accepting the SCHTIK type colleges in Kamloops in Kelowna. This is want the population wanted and that is what we got.
The benefits to the City are immense. Relatively clean industry.

Runner46. No one is shunning higher education. It is no more difficult for a student from Prince Rupert to come to Prince George for an education that it is for someone from Prince George to go to Victoria, Vancouver, or Edmonton, Calgary. Some small differences in costs. So the question is. Did we really need this University or was it as I said politically motivated.

The land for the present site for the University was set aside years ago by the Social Credit Government as the University Endowment Lands. There was a lot of talk prior to building it that it could be located West of the North Scales, or along the Fraser River where the Bench Land project is now being proposed, or even at the Prince George Golf and Curling Club site, however none of these locations were really serioulsly considered, and when the dust settled it was built exactly where it was intended it would be built.

You might remember that when you coughed up the $5.00 the intent was to get 5000 people to pay the $5.00. If my memory serves me right they didnt get more than 2000 and quietly dropped the campaign.

I dont know that you can call this University an Industry, as it is totally paid for by Taxpayers dollars. (Except for a small portion from Student Fees and donations) At best you could call it a huge taxpayer expense, from which some people extract a living. Are public schools an industry??

This was supposed to be posted last night, but the site had some problems as you read ......
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Perhaps when we look at the reason for the upset, we can look at why people are upset at why we spend money on some things in this community, but do not mind when we spend money on other things in this community. It would be interesting to see how our profile of that sits with that of other communities.

I venture to say that this is one of the only communities, if not the only community in Canada where one would find such feelings.

BTW, if I am not mistaken, this is the only location where such dissatisfaction is expressed. I do not see it in the newspapers, and I do not hear it being discussed among groups I communicate with. The only hard core group I am aware of being upset about the University are segments of the old anit-McCaffrey crowd at CNC who wanted it to be a University College.

So, I look upon Palopu and one or two others as an anomaly with respect to their views on this issue, not even a minority of any significance.

http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/051011/d051011b.htm

Some statistics

In 2003, here is how BC stood in relation to other provinces in Canada with respect to the number of full time students enrolled in University: (the first number is the total enrolled, the second the % of total population (sorry, cannot locate demographics broken into appropriate cohorts for each province)

Nova Scotia: 36,200 – 3.9%
New Brunswick: 21,100 – 2.8%
Newfoundland: 14,400 – 2.8%
Saskatchewan: 26,500 – 2.7%
Ontario: 313,700 – 2.6%
PEI: 3,300 – 2.4%
Manitoba: 27,800 – 2.4%
Quebec: 161,800 – 2.2%
Alberta: 65,000 – 2.1%
BC: 65,800 – 1.6%

University enrolment stats plus interesting discussion can be viewed here
http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/051011/d051011b.htm

If one were to account for the cohort of 18-24 year olds, which is considered to be the cohort which generates the largest component of university enrolment, BC would have a proportionately smaller number than the Canadian average due to BC being the “retirement” portion of Canada. That, however, appears to be changing as more people are retiring closer to home. In addition, BC actually does not have the oldest median age in Canada; it is the Maritimes which have that since there is a considerable out migration from there.

In 2001, the median age was:

Novas Scotia 38.8
Newfoundland 38.8
Quebec 38.6
New Brunswick 38.6
BC 38.4
PEI 37.7
Ontario 37.2
Manitoba 36.8
Saskatchewan 36.7
Alberta 35.0
Canada 37.6

Median age info can be viewed here:
http://www12.statcan.ca/english/census01/products/analytic/companion/age/highlights.cfm

Finally, look at the linked BC stats site, page 3, graph at the bottom. In the ages 18 to 24 cohort, in 2004 there were around 30,000 in each year of the cohort for a total of about 210,000. Likely a bit under by interpolation. The projection for 2031 is roughly the same, but I would say slightly less than 2004. We have to remember that BC I in a growth situation and will likely continue to be for some time, due to immigration both from within the country and from outside.

http://www.bcstats.gov.bc.ca/DATA/pop/pop/Project/WebProj0504.pdf

So, the summary as I see it?

1. Total numbers of the key age group from which University draws its clients will stay relatively steady over the next 25 years with some minor blips

2. To achieve the participation rate which Quebec has, for instance (has higher median age and lower participation rate than Canada) the number of students over 2003 has to increase by almost 40%. (I am using the current population to make those projections since the % participation rates will be going down over the next few decades as the total population ages even more while the total number in the 18 to 24 cohort will remain relatively stable). To achieve present Ontario participation rates the number of students would have to increase almost 65%. To get to the levels of New Brunswick and Saskatchewan, it would be 75% …… let’s not even talk about Nova Scotia, the University Province.

3. A change in attitude is needed. How does one do that? By increasing the awareness of the general population that BC is the poor cousin as far as educating its own people and by increasing the number of seats which are available.

"or along the Fraser River where the Bench Land project is now being proposed"

I never heard that .... far too small and constrained .. access would have been a nightmare...

The most serious one you left out is the land to the east of the Foothills bridge on the north side of the Nechako. Of all the locations, I liked that the best.

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Education is one of many service industries. In addition to that, it is much more. It is an infestment in maintaining and increasing the capacity of a community, whether a city, a province, or a country.

When people have to go out of town to go to University the following are some of the things which happen:

1. the tax money collected in the community and allocted to post secondary education stays outside the community.

2. The money to house, feed, and otherwise maintain a student moves out of the community.

3. Additional money to communicate and transport is required and is typically paid to organizations outside the community.

4. Universities which are research Universities (which is the key reasons why the original founders did not want a university college here), if they are successful, will eventually act as incubtors for new business and assisting existing businesses.

So, given that the province will have a certain number of seats available, thus spending taxpayers' money based on the need as they see it, it is far more beneficial for the Prince George's of this world to have a piece of the pie for many reasons including the above.

It is starting to look more and more to me that you, Palopu, have something against university education. Perhaps you can clarify your postion on that in a broader sense, outside the confines of the UNBC issue.

"At best you could call it a huge taxpayer expense, from which some people extract a living.

health ...
education .....
roads ......
airports ....
harbours ....
water & sewage ....

Just some of the "huge taxpayer epenses" from which some people extract a living. Not to speak about so called private industries which have lucrative (or otherwise) government contracts.

And you would like to change this how, Palopu? Give us your version of the "perfect world according to Palopu".

Owl. Firstly I would like you to go back to the post in regards to the Airport Expansion and read what was said about the Anchorage Airport in regards to Congestion, and Fuel Supply. Lets get that BS story out of the way. Now.

If one was to go along with your rational for a University for Citys the size of Prince George (Population 77000) then we should be building these University's in every City in Canada with a like population and of course we would then go broke trying to support them. At what level would you consider it not feasible to build a money losing, taxpayer supported University. 60,000 people, 50,000, ??? At some point we have to be able to draw the line.

Its pretty obvious from you and others like you that you have absolutely no problem with people coming from Prince Rupert, Terrace, Kitimat, Smithers, etc; to Prince George to attend University, however for some strange reason you cannot cope with the realization that people in Prince George can go elsewhere for their University education. It seems to me that your line of reasoning is self serving. Whats good for the goose in this instance is not good for the gander.

You and others like you never address the real question at hand. How do you expect to grow this University when we have a static or declining population, and a projected decrease in graduating students over the next 10 to 15 years. At what level would the student population at UNBC have to drop before you would admit that maybe just maybe this was a bad idea.

The taxpayers of North Central BC would get the same benefit from a graduate of Southern Universitys as it would from UNBC the only difference would be it wouldnt cost an additional 60 Million per year to get it.

If you are so good on statistics Owl maybe you can come up with the number of people who live in Prince George but attend University in the lower mainland, or elsewhere. I would suggest to you that a lot of well to do people in the City do not send their children to UNBC.

The people who advocated for and built this University were all front and centre when it started and are still preening for their great acheivement, but they will be few and far between when the chickens come home to roost. It will be much like those who hyped the building of the multi-plex (CN Centre) for seating 6000 fans, and now have trouble getting 3500. Now they blame the fans for not supporting the hockey team, instead of admitting that they made a mistake when they built this building, that now runs a deficit of $380,000.00 to $400,000.00 per year.(Taxpayers picking up the tab) Who accepts the responsibility for that. Try no one.

Last but not least. All your stats on University's in Canada mean nothing because at this time I know and you know that all University's in British Columbia are competing for students, and there is not a line up anywhere for students waiting to get in. This is another reason why UNBC has trouble getting students, and why they have the lowest entrance grade average in the Province.65% I beleive. You would have us beleive that every citizen is dying for a University education, and you very conveniently overlook the high drop out rates in BC Schools and the low number of people entering University

Building monolithic Universitys for students is fast becoming a thing of the past. At some point the Major Universitys in the South will be able to look after the needs of all the students in the Province, much like we now do for areas like the Nass Valley, Prince Rupert, Kitimat, Quesnel, etc;

I think Winnipeg should become the University Center for Canada. Shut all the others down. The UBC lands make ideal housing which is already happening anyway, with ammenities such as theatres, museums, golf course and wreck beach right there........ A waste of taxpayer's dollars to keep such a facility for the elite of the country who don't really know how to run it anyway.

Send them all to MIT, Oxford, Cambridge, Rutgers, whatever.

"If one was to go along with your rational for a University for Citys the size of Prince George (Population 77000) then we should be building these University's in every City in Canada with a like population and of course we would then go broke trying to support them."

I am sorry but that is an illogical statement. There are many other things to consider other than community size. Based on your statement we should get rid of one of the best Universities in Canada - Queens.

The one I singled out in Peterborough, Trent, has been or is number one undergrad University in Canada.

Besides, those Universities which came about through the University College model are now firmly in place in Kelowna, Kamploops, Chilliwack, Nanaimo. Prince George got a bit of a head start and is an independent University rather than being associated with UBC, UVic, etc.

So, discounting urban agglomerations such as the GVRD and greater Victoria area, the next level of city size has its Universities in place now.

The pedagogical question becomes: "Is a state univeristy system such as exisits in the USA a more economical system and does it produce relatively good quality graduates?"

Yes, I expect the entrance requirements to drop to some more reasonable level. It is often those who have middling grades, but have a lot of drive to get to their goal who will end up outdoing those whom people think are shining lights in school.

Finally, as I ahve said before, it is high time for the College to get out of the University business over the next 10 years and do what it is supposed to do, educate trades people and one year certificate and two year diploma people with a few post diplomas thrown in for good measure such as the GIS program. In addition, they should be providing much better service to northern industry in continuing education specific to the company's need. Both Northern Lights and North Island Colleges excell at this.

That is the part of post secondary education system which now needs to be "rationalized". The UT transfer courses served their purpose at most colleges when there were no Universities close by. They should only continue in such places as Terrace and its satellite campuses as well as Dawson Creek/Ft. St. John - unless UNBC can provide these services there as they seem to be doing in the joint campus in Quesnel.