Get your track shoes on boys. This is good news not only for me but for my grandkids and greatgrandkids.

I am pleased with the direction and vision some of our community leaders have in this area of transportation. Congratulations. I will support and encourage the work you are doing for the benefit of our community. Thank you. Chester

When one reads stories like this, it is hard to figure out where you should start to sort it out. I dont like to be seen as scrapping the icing off your cake but here goes.

(1) In 2004 the Prince George Airport Authority lost $724,000.00.

(2) In 2005 the PG Airport Authority made $42,000.00. They have stated that the reason they were able to show a profit was because they were able to reduce staff by about 20 employees since they took over the Airport from the Federal Govenment. (20 Lost jobs)

(3) This 11 Million loan from Northern Initiatives Development is just that a loan. I dont see any mention of the term of the loan, the interest charged, or how the Airport Authority expects to pay for the loan. Why is that. Is that not part of the good news story.

(4) This Runway Airport expansion, along with the extra business that is supposed to be generated is apparently extrapolated over 20 Years and is based on our ability to get a minimum of 1500 flights per year through Prince George that are presently going through Anchorage Alaska.

(5) In addition to the 11 Million an addtional 22 Million is being sought from the Federal and Provincial Governments. (Wasnt it the Provincial Government that gave $135 Million to the Northern Initiative Development Trust in the first place? This money was part of the revenue from the sale of BC Rail, so in essence if they get an additional 11 Million from the Province, then in fact they are getting 22 Million from the Province as that is where the money originated.

(6) Here comes the crunch. Airport Authorities get their money from three main sources. Fees paid by the Airlines, Revenues from concessions and parking, and the Airport improvement fee. The Airport improvement fee, is the fee you pay everytime you fly out of Prince George. This fee varies between 5 and 15 dollars per trip depending on where you are flying to. If you fly to Vancouver then of course you will pay the Airport improvement fee when you fly back.

Airport improvement fee revenue must be spent on improvements to the Airport. So it is pretty obvious that the Prince George Airport will keep the Airport Improvement Fees in place for at least the next 20 years to pay off this loan and pay for these improvements. In fact they may have to increase them. Some people may think that this is as it should be. ( User pay ), however they seem to forget that as taxpayers we have already paid for this Airport and all its buildings etc through our tax dollars. What we are facing now is double taxation.

(A) We built the Airport initially through tax dollars.

(2) The Airport was turned over to the Airport Authorities to run, along with the Authority to collect Airport Improvement Fees.

(3) The Federal Government continues to collect rent from the Airport Authority for Land, Buildings, Runways, etc. In the case of the Vancouver International Airport they paid the Federal Government 68 Million in rent in 2003, and 72 Million in 2004. The Federal Government now makes more money from these Airports through the Airport Authorities than they did when they ran them themselves. The kicker is that the additional revenues comes from Airport Improvement Fees which is a diabolical way of double taxing those people who fly, because it was their tax dollar also that paid for the Airport originally. In addition I dont recall the Federal Government ever reducing our taxes because of the additional monies they now make by getting out of the Airport Business.

In closing, here is what happened. The Provincial Government sold BC Rail, with a loss of 300 or more jobs in the greater Prince George area. They gave the Northern Trust $135 Million to invest in the area to create new opportunities for the North. The Northern Trust loaned this money to The Airport Authority, who will invest it in an Airport expansion that may or may not create 280 to 300 jobs over the next 20 years. The money to pay for the loan and the expansion will come from the present assessed Airport Improvement Fees that will have to be assessed for the next 20 years and may have to be increased. Some of the expansion will be paid for by the increased business if it materializes, but if it doesnt then it will all be paid for by the AIF and if the Prov/Feds kick in 22 Million by taxpayers.

If anyone should get credit for this expansion and the additional business that may come as a result, it should be the people who fly out of Prince George on a regular basis, because it is their money that is paying for it.

Strange that this wasnt mentioned in the Press Release.

Sort of like Greyhound bus.

They use the public highways paid for by the taxpayers for the capital investment and the ongoing cost of their maintenance.

When they buy a new bus or two, or build a new station, or pay for their employees, it is paid for by those who are bus passengers and buy the tickets and those who use the buses for shipping.

So, those who use Greyhound for any of their services are actually subsidized by the taxpayer since the company would be dead in the water if there were no highways.

And that is not the half of it, I am sure. Our interwoven public/private system is rather complicated, which means for anyone to even attempt to segregate what component of something is paid for by whom and by what means is an approximation at best.

I am unaware that the PG airport charges a variable AIF ... that is Vancouver.

Further fees payable info here ....
http://www.parl.gc.ca/information/library/PRBpubs/prb0572-e.htm

Annual airport authority report here:
http://www.pgairport.ca/Files/YXS/Documents/AnnualReport2005.pdf

The fee in PG was increased from $5 to $10 in 2004 due to the planned terminal improvements. The agreement with the ATAC is that it can only be used for airport passenger service facilities.

The AIF brought in $1.6 million. Landing fees $1.5 million. Revenues based on other terminal operations totalled about $2.2 million. The total of the three is about $5.3 million which means the AIF brings in about 30% of that.

Of course it is mainly passengers who pay for parking, rental of space by other service providers on site, etc. It is also passengers who pay for landing fees and passengers who pay for interest paid on the borrowing of money .....

So, it is time that we diversify the operations of the airport to get the cargo sector to pay for more of the infrastructure that passengers currently pay.

I use the airport at least once a month on average and I love the work they have done on it. It gives me pride to come into the city now and it gives me pride when I hear others from interior cities commenting about how great it looks.

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I understand the notion that the province is actually providing 2/3 of the cost of the runway improvements. However, one can also look at it as the government liquidating an asset and providing part of the income to the North to choose with what they decide rather than putting it back into general revenues where it gets lost.

One can also look at it as the money coming from one sector of primarily cargo transportation to another sector primarily for cargo transportation. Perhaps they should have put it into improvement of the highway system here.

ooops.... faux pas .....

the NIDT is a repayable loan, I assume without interest. If that is true, then the only part of the loan which one could remotely think is coming from the province is the interest component.

As usual Owl you try to muddy the waters by talking around the issues and completly ignoring anything you dont want to discuss.

(1) Firstly all the costs for the operation of a Bus Line is covered by the price of the ticket and whatever they make on cargo transportation. The same thing applies to Airlines. The bus company does not charge you a Busline Improvement Fee of $10.00 every time you go on a bus trip, and use that money to build new terminals, or buy new buses. So dont try to muddy the waters. Plus Bus Lines pay for the use of the Highways through Gasoline/Diesel taxes.

(2) These Airports were bought and paid for by the Canadian Taxpayers through tax dollars and run by the Federal Government. (Bus lines are not) The Federal Government is now in the position of collecting rents on the Buildings, Property, and Runways, and in fact now make more money from the Airports than they did when they ran them.

(3) It seems you are incapable of following a money trail. The Provincial Government sold BC Rail for 1 Billion Dollars. They took 135 Million and gave it to the Northern Trust which was to administer the money for various projects in the North. The Northern Trust took 11 Million of the 135 Million (Which came from the BC Government) and loaned it to the Airport Authority which was set up by the Federal Government to run the Airport. The Airport Authority will take this money with or without interest and pay it back to the Norhern Trust over a period of probably 20 years, they will get the money to pay this loan from the present or increased AIF'S. Some revenue will come from additional business if they get any.

So what do we have here.

(A) Provincial Government sells publically owned BC Rail for 1 Billion.

(b) Gives 135 Million to Northern Trust set up by Provincial Government to spend the 135 Million.

(c) Northern Trust loans 11 Million of the 135 Million to Prince George Airport Authority (Set up by Federal Government to run Airport) for Airport expansion. Presume over 20 years at low or no interest rate.

(d) Airport Authority implements an Airport Improvement Fee to pay for improvements to Airport, money from these fees will be used to pay back the 11 Million borrowed from Northern Trust, who received it from BC Government.

(e) A large portion of the income from the Airport Authority will go to the Federal Goverment in the form of rent for the use of all the facilities. Federal Government keeps this rent money, which could have been used for all these improvements.

(f) Taxpayers have already owned the Airport and some will now pay for the Airport Improvements through AIF'S.

(g) Fuzzy statements to the effect that if we can get 1500 Cargo Flights per year we could see an additional 280 Jobs and 12 Million per year go into the areas economy. (Maybe)

(h) Airport Authority wants an additional 11 Million from the Provincial Government and 11 Million from the Federal Government, for further improvements, based on Fuzzy statements.(More tax dollars)

Who Wins

BC Government gets to keep most of the 1 Billion dollars from the sale of BC Rail. Probably goes toward 2010.

Federal Government abdicates responsibility to run the Prince George Airport but makes as much or more money than it did when it did run it.

Airport Authority after borrowing 11 Million dollars now has a good reason to continue the AIF's and if necessary even increase them to pay for these expansions. This also means job security for all concerned.

No gaurantees that there will be any increased benefits in the short term and little if any gaurantees that there will be any in the long term.

Contractors will make money and some jobs created by building the runway expansion.

Who loses.

Air travellers (who could care less about air cargo, or International Flights) will have to pay increased air fares for years into the future, to pay for this expansion.

Tax payers lose BC Rail, and now must pay for running the Airport even though they are already paying for it through taxes. (Double and Triple Taxation) No reduction in taxes because of the increased revenue to Governments.

Who cares.

I doubt if you will find one politician, or anyone associated with this venture that gives a hoot about those who have to pay for it.

Players in this most vile drama.

Provincial Government
Federal Government
Local Municipal and Regional Governments
Northern Trust (Set up by Provincial Government)
Airport Authority (Set up by Federal Government)

Airport Authoritys are non-profit entities, and therefore all monies made must be ploughed back into improvements, or they must reduce the Airport Improvement Fees. Thats why the Vancouver International Airport is one on the most overimproved and money wasting Airports in the world. Passengers going through that terminal from other countries are aghast at the obvious waste of taxpayers money.

This is a prime example of out of control Government meddling and wasting of taxpayers time and money. I for one do not see how we will ever get rid of it. There are to many pigs and to many troughs in this country, and all the feed comes from the taxpayer.

Whats new?

Pal:"BC Government gets to keep most of the 1 Billion dollars from the sale of BC Rail. Probably goes toward 2010."

You left out the fact that the BC Government used 600 million of the 1 Billion it got for the sale of BC Rail to pay down the 600 million debt of BC Rail.

There were only 400 million left, not 1,000 million.

I gladly pay a fee every time I use the airport and I think that those who positively advance its future are to be congratulated.

Diplomat. The Airport ran fine for 60 years without you having to pay a fee, and it could have been run for another 60. You actually did pay a fee because you paid taxes that paid for some of the expenses to run the airport. Now you pay taxes plus a fee. The idea of Airport Authoritys came from the Federal Government, so I guess what you are saying is that the Federal Government should be congratulated for advancing its future, even though that is what they were doing for the last 60 years This is nohing more that double taxation.

Owl you lost it when you compared my Greyhound to the air service. I say mine because thats how I travel.

To some it dosent matter what the fees and air fair cost. How much of it can they write off as a none taxable cost? They win coming or going.

And Pal you said it all there are just to many feeding off the taxpayer trough.

Cheers

Palopu, no need to post almost the same thing twice. I caught on the first time, but do not have to convert to your way of thinking, just as you do not have to concert to mine. As so often before, we each made our statements and the time has come to move on.

If you are trying to be evangelical, then you are likely in the wrong place. If you are trying to have a debating competition, then we had better set up an objective group of judges so that the rules can be set out and a winner can be declared afer each such written debate.

Pal, you totally ignored my comment in respect to you implying that most of the money from the sale of BC Rail might go to the 2010 Winter Olympics.

Most of the money was used to eliminate the debt that BC Rail had accrued during its years of operation.

And we still own the tracks and the right-of-way, by the way.

Your guess about what I am saying is incorrect.

There is double taxation wherever I look.

If the government is making more money NOW compared to when it ran the airports by means of our taxes alone - what part of the everyday taxes I am paying DOES support the airports?

And we still own the tangible assets, as you state:"3) The Federal Government continues to collect rent from the Airport Authority for Land, Buildings, Runways, etc."

Where exactly IS the problem, if indeed there is one?

On a return flight to Vancouver, Westjet's best price at the moment is $208. The government related surcharges on that are $81.74. That is 40% on top of the fare. Keep in mind that such items as landing fees and space rental at the airport come out of the $208.

From the Westjet site, here are some of the places the programs the charges go to:

 AIF - Airport Improvement Fee, Canadian Airports only, up to $15 CAD
 INS - Insurance surcharge, Canadian domestic travel only, up to $6 CAD
 ATSC - Air Travellers Security Charge, Canadian Airports only, up to $17 CAD
 NAV - Navigation charge, Canadian Airspace only, up to $40 CAD
 GST - Goods and Service Tax, Canadian Federal tax, on all GST applicable charges calculated at 6% of total charge and added to total.
 HST - Harmonized Sales Tax, Canadian Federal GST blended with PST, (Provincial sales tax) applies to all HST applicable charges in participating provinces
 QST - Québec Sales Tax, the Québec Provincial Sales Tax, applicable charges in Québec

And this is waht one pays to the USA when flying there, just to show that we are not the only ones.

 PFC - Passenger Facility Charge, United States Airports only, up to $4.50 USD
 September 11 Security Fee, United States airports only, $2.50 USD per enplanement
 United States Arrival/Departure Tax, up to $29 USD
 United States Immigration Fee, $7 USD

My interpretation is that the user pays most, if not all the costs of flying. That may not have been the case 30 years ago, I do not know. But I am sure there is someone around who does.

Diplomat. The BC Rail Debt was owed to the Government of BC who owned BC Rail. The debt was accumulated over the years. You can state that $600 Million of the 1 Billion was used to pay off this debt, but in fact the $600 Million was written off and the money from BC Rail sale went into general revenue. Dont see how else it would have been done. If the debt was to a bank, or some other lending agency then of course it would be different, but to my knowledge this debt was owed to the Government.

The problem is this. Why would you go to all the trouble of setting up an Airport Authority, to run your Airport, charge it rent for all the facilities including the runways., then have different levels of Government, includings the Northern Trust loan, or give it 33 Million for expansion of the runways etc;, and pretend that it was a new endeavour. The Federal Government still owns all the assets, the Airport Authority is a non-profit organization, that now has taxing authority. (Which it shouldnt have) At the end of the day those people using the Airlines will have to pay for all the improvements.

One would think that if the Federal Government just continued to run the Airport invested the 33 Million itself we could have had this work in progress years ago. Or why not sell the whole works to a private company to run.

I suspect a private company would go broke, and I know that the Federal Government makes more money running this through an Airport Authority, and thats why they are doing it this way.

In other words we are being duped.

The Vancouver Airport Authority makes hundreds of millions of dollars every year, pays huge rents to the Federal Government and plows the balance of the money into improvements. They have improvement plans for the next 25 years, and also have people on the payrolls working in 11 or 12 different Countries showing them how to set up their Airports. This is a cash cow that is accessed by many people, but paid for by the flying public. There is no intention of reducing the Airport Improvement fees in Vancouver for the next 25 years.

Prince George does not have enough people flying out of Prince George to generate enough money to finance their own improvements, and therefore must borrow from the Northern Trust, and try to get grants from the Prov/Fed Governments to make improvements. The loan will have to be paid for by the AIF's and therefore they will remain in effect for years to come. Will we get any benefits from all of this. Who knows? As I said their have been no gaurantees, only fuzzy statements about how much we could make if we get 1500 cargo flights per year that are now going through Anchorage Alaska. Not much to go on.

Maybe it would be cheaper for us to just buy our own planes ?

Pal: "The BC Rail Debt was owed to the Government of BC who owned BC Rail. The debt was accumulated over the years. You can state that $600 Million of the 1 Billion was used to pay off this debt, but in fact the $600 Million was written off and the money from BC Rail sale went into general revenue."

When the Fast Ferry disaster dust settled the hundreds of millions of dollars borrowed to finance the construction of the ferries were "written off" as well - they were added to the debt of the province.

In the case of the BC Rail debt the borrowed money (part of the total debt of the province) was extinguished when it was paid off with the proceeds from the sale.

Since then we don't have to make annual interest payments on the 600 million anymore.

To state it once more: The debt of the province was reduced by 600 million dollars.

Believe it - or not.

Afterthought: Since it is so easy for the government to "write off" a debt - I suggest (tongue-in-cheek) that our provincial government should "write off" the entire provincial debt of approximately 40 billion dollars!

That will make us immediately debt free and we will save ourselves 7 million dollars PER DAY of interest charges - enough to pay for the 2010 Olympics, twinning of every bridge and highway in B.C., runway extensions, new hospitals and schools, you name it!

And all without raising our taxes by one dollar!

Unfortunately it can not be done, debts are debts and they must be repaid to the lenders or annual debt service charges must be made until they are.

And a government can not declare bankruptcy as long as the assets exceed the liabilities.

Fact and fiction don't operate on the same level of reality.