Maybe they should learn how to keep the train on the track first...

Mind you no one is going to do anyting until someone gets hurt bad.... or a bunch of toxic waste is dumped on some politicians door step...

How do I know ?????
I have contacted both my MLA and MP after the last derailment and neither have even botherd to return my phone call....

I'd say it is guaranteed that CN is not putting a container facility in PG.

Gofaster, should I phone all the politicians now? HeeHee.

Wouldn't it make sense to put it in PG, now that they own BC rail. They have a lot of excess land downtown that can be used for that.

It sounds like Feeny is managing expectations. Don't be surprised when PG doesn't get the facility.

Ruez and where, exactly, is the excess land downtown?

I would bet you that De-railments have not gone up and I bet there is the same amount in any given year. The difference now is you have a lot of pissed off ex-BC Rail employees that leak the news on every de-railment where in the past everyone kept to himself or herself. Just a guess...

It would certainly appear that if you read between the lines CN has no plans for a Container Port in the area, however they never indicated that they would. All the hype came from other sources.


What Container Port near the Airport??????

"Jim Feeny in charge of CN Media relations for Western Canada says centers in the running include Prince George, Prince Rupert, Grande Prairie, and Kamloops."

Interesting statement. In the sentence leading up to the statement above, it appears that there will be a new "container port" somewhere. One might read into this that it will not be a capacity increase at one or more existing locations, but a new node.

Then it states that 4 locations are INCLUDED in the locations being considered. It does not say that these are the only ones.

Whether it is a new node, or an increase in capacity at one or more existing nodes, I would think that the key decision would deal with the location of where existing goods are produced and whether they get shipped oversees at this time or in the near future. It becomes a distance-quantity-value calculation coupled with a guesstimate of potential future opportunities in order to determine where the optimum node should be.

If we were to look at forestry products, there is certainly a fair quantity manufactured along the Highway 16 west corridor as well as the Highway 97 north and south corridor, plus the immediate area around Prince George itself.

If the node is located anywhere else, it is a loss of opportunity for the forestry products coming out of this region. I would think that for any products going overseas, existing routes would then continue to be used. Since the CN has a monopoly on rail traffic in this part of the province anyone shipping by rail would be required to use CN. Kamloops has the advantage of having two rail lines. Perhaps CN recognizes that and wishes to grab some of that traffic. Or perhaps they would prefer to support the Rupert Port as a strong alternative to Vancouver and optimize the northern rail corridor.

http://www.railserve.com/railnews/newsjump.cgi?http://ca.today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=businessNews&storyID=2006-09-22T133226Z_01_N21204581_RTRIDST_0_BUSINESS-TRANSPORT-CPRAIL-COL.XML

In order to get to Prince Rupert, train traffic has to go through PG. It is the only city which has that advantage. As I understand it, PG also has the advantage of having land available. Whether the land is in CN hands or not likely does not matter that much. Land can be swapped relatively easily if one is willing to build the infrastructure in some other location or gets assistance with doing that.

All of your comments hold water.

I am reminded of a plan that CN had some years ago when they developed a huge chunk of raw land at Valemount (still vacant but ready), partly to get away from the confines of Jasper, but also to position a future "inland port" to best take advantage of the N/S and E/W traffic patterns.

Mumblings from inside CN suggest they are not a bit happy with the old BCR line from 100 Mile to N Van because of the difficult terrain and high maintainence costs, so much so that a good deal of product moves to and through here to Valemount and then South to market. It becomes a slightly longer trip but with considerably less risk.

CN has spent a boatload of money on the Edmonton facilities and they would be reluctant to let that become an under-utilized location, and that is not a bad business inclination when it comes to making their next decision. Reality and cash go hand in hand these days.

The hype about their participation in a sorting yard for containers is good advertizing for them, but has no real substance, other than public relations and "feel good" noise... and yes, I like that noise as much as the next person.

"You were looking good up to the last moment folks... maybe next time, if you sweeten the pot. Again,(fill in this space with the community of your choice), thanks for all your help".

BC needs to be more than just a mute gatekeeper for the West coast of Canada... we need some political and financial independance from Eastern influences.

I am unsure of how we can achieve that.

90% of the Forest Products that go through the Port of Vancouver from this area are handled to Vancouver via CN Rail, or the old BC Rail line.

CN has a virtual monopoly on this traffic with the exception of a small amount of truck traffic, so they have little to gain from a revenue point of view by loading this product in Containers in Prince George to Prince Rupert. I suspect that they wouldnt make anymore revenue in Containers to Prince Rupert that they would from Rail Cars to Vancouver.

First and foremost they would want to load these Containers in competitive areas so that they can increase their revenue.

I think a lot of people are putting a lot on the line in anticipation that this might, repeat might happen.
I personally have my doubts...

And yes YAMA why not phone your MP and/or MLA and tell them if you are concerned about CN's record of not keeping the train on the track.

I did and I now sleep a little better knowing I tried......

Palopu; assuming we were shipping wood from here to PR for overseas export, I doubt that CN would touch the wood themselves, rather the shipper would have to load the containers and CN would simply drive the boxes to PR. Ends up being just another transport item, regardless of destination.

From what I understand at PR, there will be no room for loading or unloading the contents of containers. That small piece of new ground will be bustling enough with just box handling. They will want to move each container in or out with the minimum of effort, hence the need for an outside location to do the contents handling.

That's where it makes no sense to handle the contents at PG. Why would anyone ship their stuff here to be put into boxes when it can be accumulated and directed from locations that are much closer to the shipper, if not in the shipper's own yard ?

Going the other way, from PR to market, one would think the box would go to a distribution center that is close to the market. Why would anyone unload a box of product from China in PG for re-shipment to stores in larger centers ? I cannot see the wisdom of spending extra money here to unload and reload and then reship.

If we think that whole containers will be handled here in a sort yard, we have to ask ourselves the same question... why?

What could a shipper possibly gain by having their whole containers manipulated here ? Rerouting ? CN already knows where the container needs to ultimately arrive.

Perhaps we are thinking that a sort yard here will build the trains going to PR ? Unlikely, except for our local wood product, that boxes would find their way here by themselves to be assembled as part of a full train to PR.

Regardless, it will still be fun to count the decks going and coming on the mainline. :-)

Palopu.. did I misread your statement as "or the old BCR line"... or did you mean to say "on the old BCR line" ?

"Why would anyone ship their stuff here to be put into boxes when it can be accumulated and directed from locations that are much closer to the shipper, if not in the shipper's own yard ?"

I am not a railroad buff, so I really do not know the answer with any degree of certainty.

However, it would seem to me that one would wish to minimize locations where sections of trains would be assembled or mnarshalled so that the train does not end up being a "mik-run". In other words, the ideal is a unit train carrying grain from Saskatoon to PR for instance or unit train from Tumbler Ridge carrying coal to PR.

Owl... yes, true. But a container train is made up of just containers, hence it becomes a unit train. I doubt that it would be mixed with coal or grain bulk cars... but maybe. There isn't a lot of switch yard capacity at PR since they abandonded the old waterfront yards. (Which they have yet to delouse, BTW).

I sure you are aware that Ridley Island has its own grain terminal loading facility as well as its own seperate coal loading facility. Those unit trains come in on rail and the product is dumped into storage bins or areas on two different pieces of property. Both facilities are pretty fussy and protective about their work and work space.

There was hope that wood pellets from our huge new industry of dead pine trees would be able to be handled at either place for bulk loading... not gonna happen... too much non-cooperation and reluctance to modify for pellets... so they get sent back to VCR for export. I'm not sure if they (pellets) will be able to use the new container PR terminal or not... I don't see why they wouldn't.

Of course, now that there is "oil on the water" at the CWMB we should be aware that grain shipments through PR will probably decline as the Powers of Grain Movement will direct most of that product through VCR. Another little snub for anyone who thinks in the long term.

:-)

Thanks for that RR ...

I was reading up on this a bit and was using the linked definition of unit train. I realize wikipedia is not the final authority on this, but it is generally pretty good for a discerning reader who can pick out some of the questionable sections.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_train

With respect to container, I am under the impression that the good in containers vary considerably, with quite unique origins and destinations, thus the need for intermodal nodes along routes which transport containers, especially since containers have the added benefit of being able to carry goods in both directions, unlike coal and wheat trains where that would not make any sense.

In other words, they are close to boxcars or even truck trailers which used to (maybe they still do) be carried on flatbeds for long hauls.

http://www.kcpiggy.com/index.html

Owl. Truck Trailers loaded on Rail Cars are called Intermodal Trailers. This is the type of service that the BC Rail provided between Vancouver and Prince George.

A Truck Trailer would be loaded with merchandise at a warehouse in Vancouver, transported to North Vancouver and loaded on a Intermodal Rail Car. Once the train arrived in Prince George the trailer was off loaded and delivered to the customers. This is the standard procedure for Intermodal Operations in North America, however because of all the handling required, it is not considered feasible within a 500 mile radius, as highway trucks would be more efficient. That is why after a number of years the BC Rail discontinued its Intermodal Service. (It consistantly lost money).

Containers are basically the same as a truck trailer except they are usually only 40ft long. These containers do not have any wheels and therefore have to be lifted off the container ships and loaded onto Rail cars for distant destinations, and on to the decks of trucks if they are going short distances.

The containers coming through Prince Rupert will be 99% loaded on Rail cars and travel to Montreal, Toronto, Chicago, Memphis Tenn., etc; to Major Container Distribution yards where they will be unloaded from the rail cars by cranes, loaded on trucks and then delivered to Major Distributions Centres probably within a 300 mile radius.

Container shipping is based on the economies of scale and are not designed to be used outside of metropolitian areas. So product coming from China for Walmart Stores would go to a central distribution centre. Say Edmonton, Vancouver,Toronto, and then reloaded into trucks and sent to Walmart stores through out the Province. It would be highly unlikely that they would load a Container from China to Prince George, it would be more likely that they would load 10 Containers with Tea Towels, 10 with Furniture, 10 with Dry Goods, etc; To Vancouver and then distribute to the rest of the Province from there.(The majority of the merchandise would be used in the greater Vancouver area and the balance would be trucked to outlying areas.

The Containers would be run on Unit Trains from Prince Rupert to Eastern Canada, and the US Midwest. A unit train would consist of approx 150 52ft Rail cars. Each rail car would hold 2 40ft Containers.(Double Stacked). So one train could haul 300 Containers. The ships that will be docking in Prince Rupert from China have the capacity to hold 12,500 TEU's (20ft equivalent units) or 6,250 40ft containers., Therefore one ship arriving in Prince Rupert will have sufficient Containers to load 20 Trains, 150 Rail Cars each. This is the equivelant of 30 Miles of train. In order to move the projected number of Containers per annum through this Port you would need One Container ship every 9 days.

Once this system is in place you will have a like amount of Containers returning to Prince Rupert either empty or loaded, as the ship once it is unloaded has to be reloaded for its return trip to China. Returning to China with empty containers makes the economics of the venture less viable, so therefore it is essential for the shipping lines, railways, and shipper/receivers to try to get loads to return to China.

They will start to accumulate these loads in the immediate area where the inbound containers were unloaded, and then continue to find loads all across Canada up to and including Prince Rupert. This is where the Container Terminals come into play. If you have Containers Terminals in Saskatoon, Edmonton, Grande Praire, Prince George, with empty containers available for loading, then it is just a matter of having local trucking Companies taking the Containers to the Mills, loading them and returning them to the Rail yard for loading on Rail cars. With trains going through Prince George and these other Terminals every day it is not a big deal to have these cars added to the trains.

The Pulp, Paper, and Lumber from this area is presently loaded into Rail Cars (or trucks) at the Mills and shipped to Vancouver, where it is unloaded and reloaded into Containers and trucked to the Docks and loaded onto Container Ships, to South East Asia (China) Approx 75000 Containers per year or more out of North Central BC.

The question basically comes down to this. Is it cheaper to continue to load Rail cars and Trucks to Vancouver, have the products stuffed into Containers, and trucked to the docks for loading on ships, or is it cheaper to have the Containers off loaded from trains in Prince George Trucked to Shippers, loaded, returned to the Rail Yard and Railed to Prince Rupert. My guess is that the difference between the two alternatives would not be sufficient to make any general change in the Prince George area, especially because the CN already has all the business going to Vancouver. It would be in their best interests to get these Containers loaded further East and therefore generate additional revenue, rather than just change the revenue stream in this area.

To my knowledge very few if any Major shippers in this area have been approached by CN Rail or any other entity to discuss loading Containers to Prince Rupert, which would lead me to beleive that at least in the short term there is not a plan for a major Container Terminal in the area.

The first Container ships are supposed to start arriving in Prince Rupert in the fall of 2007 so at best this area has 10 Months to get things in order.

All indications I can see are that Prince Rupert will also have the container terminal. They have lots of land just south of the container port. It makes sense in that Grande Prarrie can still ship to Edmonton, ditto for east of PG, and PG west could go by truck directly to Pricne Rupert. Not much west and north of PG to make PG viable.

I think PG will have to first focus on becoming a regional transportation hub via a ring road infrastructure build out to prove we can be ready for the big time. We do not have the road infrasturcture to handle a growing transportation industry. Its a risk and an inefficiency that does not make our prospects very attractive. A town that still funnels all its traffic through city center mainstreet is not a town serious about transportation logistics. One look at the Cameron street fiasco must leave them scratching their heads at CN.

My concern now is NIMBY. What are all those people who live out Miworth, or in places like Vanderhoof going to do when they wait half the day at the rail crossing becasue of all the additional traffic flying through town non stop. Will it be time to demand CN take their rail yard out of our downtown river front and run it through Bear Lake Fort St James, Vanderhoof so we can have whats left of the Nechako for people purposes? I could see that being the next step with no further gains to lose. Especially if Isle Pierre gets the axe as is expected.

Time Will Tell

Chadermando.

I think you will get your answer to your second and even third paragraphs early in the new year. I think that is why CN is waiting with announcing their decision re the role, if any, of PG.

If the information that is floating around is accurate, then several issues will be addressed and improved at the same time.

I think road access from the west to rail will be important.

Time will tell if the information is accurate and negotiations are successful.