This is bang on. The whole thing is very frustrating to me. I feel like people who have some responsibiity in these areas are toying with our lives and filling us full of hope when there is nothing to show for it.

At the same time, there are people who are only complaining. They are not able to or willing to come forward to do something about it. Are they just complainers, or are they just as stymied as those working through a political system?

At times like these I feel that there is not enough public dialogue. In all my 30+ years here I have not felt like this. There have been issues - downtown, library, shopping centres, removing trees from parks to mine the gravel, air quality, etc. etc. However, none of these dealt with the economics and viability of the city or the region.

It took the MPB for us to realize that we have really been sitting pretty here and doing almost nothing to diversify the economy. Much of waht has happened, and that includes the UNBC, has been serendipitous.

I will post a few more thoughts as the day progresses. There are models to follow. There are also some things in the above written article I disagree with.

Winter winds: What do they bring? Have Smithers Mayor read post on above page on yesterdays Opinion250.

Cheers

"We have beaten the bushes to death and by the way, spent a lot of money saying we are going to grow our education system in this region. Where is that growth?"

???????? This comment I really do not understand.

15 years ago there was no university here. The College had a total of about 3,000 FTE students in the system. Since then, we have added another 3,000+ FTE at the UNBC. Argue about figures up and down a couple of hundred if you wish. The point still remains, there has been a substantial increase in the number of students in this community. And there have been jobs there have been added as a result .. and there has been a quality of life and quality of attractiveness which has been brought to the city.

When an industry and when people seek out a community where to put down roots, the UNBC is one of the positive attractions, like it or not.

The UNBC has introduced what I call an import replacement to this community and much more than that. Students used to go elsewhere to get a degree because they simply had to. Students did not come here from other places to get degrees because we could not provide that service. We used to send money to other communities to educate our children to the highest levels.

And, as best as I can tell, this was a serendipitous event. The government of the day decided it would create undergraduate universities from selected colleges in the system in order to increase education opportunities. Had we taken the same route as Kamloops, Kelowna, Nanaimo, Fraser Valley, Surrey, etc. we would have grown the college to 4,000, 5,000, perhaps even 6,000 students. And we could now be the recipients, as are several of those other communities, of agreements with UBC to locate a subsidiary campus in PG.

However, luckily (at least some of us think so) there were those who understood in those days that such was not the way to go. They also knew that it would be a challenge. New universities, as with new businesses, do not come with guarantees. It takes at least 10 years for a University to establish itself as a credible institution which takes in more than just local students in general arts and science programs.

UNBC has done an outstanding job so far. We could not have asked for anything better.

It, as it appears our city is doing as well, is entering the next phase. Will it grow to become even better, or will it remain as is?

The possibilities exist. However, we must first understand, in both cases, and recognize what assets we have, where we want to go, and what are the gaps we need to fill in order to get there.

So far, all I hear are more students for the UNBC and more jobs for the city.

Sorry folks, that does not cut it as far as I am concerned. The measurement of that is get more jobs by making PG minimum wage haven, and more students through lowering the entry requirements and handing out paper degrees.

That approach will fail for both the UNBC and the city in the long run. So, we need to define our goals a bit better.

So, key question. Who is defining our goals and where do we take part in this?

The answer that we get to elect the municipal and regional district council every three years and the provincial reps every 4 years and the feds whenever they have been told they are out of there, is just not an acceptable answer anymore.

Owl, I agree that a lot of people are commenting/complaining and they (like me) have many good ideas. The system though seems to have an incredible amount of inertia in it and lately especially even the smallest issue or idea seems to be dragged down by endless regulations, political correctness considerations and miles of red tape at every conceivable step of the way.

Our city council, for instance, pointed out that even with the most speedy approach a full replacement of the Cameron Street Bridge would involve looking at a completion date sometime in late 2009.

Additionally, every time we have a change of government in Ottawa or in Victoria politicians throw out all kinds of work done by the previous government for the sake of implementing their own agenda.

Often they do not honour committments made before the change of government and that can lead to disruptions and throwbacks.

What is the cure?

First off ... I hope red tape will cause the Cameron street birdge to be delayed for decades, when a small bridge will actually be required.

Diplomat. I do not know about your experience, but mine has been that people are typically quite reasonable. Also, I have learned that if you want money form someone, public or private, you have to build a business case.

It might be because of the way I think about the Cameron street bridge issue, but the way I see it is that those who have been asked for funds are doing their due diligence in this case.

The political correctness in all that is that those who have the pencil do not want to make those at City hall who have been going after the wrong pots of money for the wrong thing have been making the mistakes.

There are people at city hall who know who owl is. And there are people on here who know who owl is. Whenever I come out like this on here I risk loosing people at City Hall and even in the provincial government. However, I try to work within the system as much as possible. But there is only so much I can accept. There comes a time when one has to take a stand and that stand has to become public and it has to become public in a "pro-active" way. In other words, not just complaining, but working with others to cause change.

I think that time is approaching. People in this community have stood up before. The North Nechako group is doing so right now after 30+ years of being fed BS.

Its a tough one...red tape and regulations have bogged down almost every individual in every position in every organization.

Its a reflection of the world and society we now live in...and I believe very little can be done about it.

Today we are all more concerned with covering our own ass than we are with doing a good job due to regulation type issues. Its too bad.

Continuation to a response to Ben's piece.

Models to emulate?

I have mentioned Lethbridge before. A community of similar size, relatively close to Calgary, but still far enoug away to crete its own econimc sphere. As they say, agriculture made the community, not oil.

It has been the size of PG for some time. It has had quality growth more as a result of provincial well-being rather than local resources such as waht happened in PG in the 1960's and in Fort McMurry in more recent history.

http://www.lethbridge.ca/home/default.htm

In an article in the Clagary Herald yesterday, the mayor of Lethbridge had this to say about the positive things during his yeasr-end message.

Bob Tarleck, the mayor of Lethbridge: “Our goal is to make Lethbridge one of the most exciting small cities in Canada. We’re not interested in growth just for the sake of growth. We’re interested in the sort of growth that’s going to make Lethbridge a better community.”

• In 2006 Lethbridge eliminated its tax supported debt, a rare feat among Canadian cities. It was a 17-year plan and it was done one year early, to celebrate their birthday. The city will save about $22 million by 2050 if it keeps debt at bay.

• Lethbridge also seems to have benefited from a growing dissatisfaction with big-city life elsewhere in Alberta. Housing prices in Lethbridge are about two-thirds those in Calgary.

• Some of the city’s growth is due to its “You Belong Here” advertising campaign, launched in March. The campaign makes no secret of trying to lure workers from powerhouse cities such as Calgary and Fort McMurray.

• Lethbridge has also found a niche in environmentally sustainable building projects. The city continues to produce electricity from methane gas at its wastewater treatment plant, and in 2006, it opened SunRidge, Canada’s first energy efficient neighbourhood. Alternative energy projects, such as wind and solar power, along with ethanol production, are in the works.

• Economically, Tarleck wants Lethbridge to boost its ties to agriculture in 2007, along with educational and research institutions such as the University of Lethbridge, Lethbridge Research Centre and Lethbridge College.

Prince George’s centennial is March 16, 2015.

• What can we do about getting rid of our debt?

• What can we do to draw people to the community?

• What can we do to take further advantage of the educational institutions? Where is the research park which should have started by now? How can the City help? Who is even talking about his anymore?

• What can we do to get to the front of environmentally sound subdivisions rather than approving subdivisions in questionable locations before cleaning up existing polluting neighbours?

• What can we do to create new industrial parks with energy efficient services included?

• What can we do to design rational ring roads for the next 50 years of changes rather than relying on roads which take increasing industrial traffic through the city and were adequate 50 years ago?

All I heard, even though other things were likely said by our Mayor, is how the Cameron Street broidge will be built in 2007. Time to get off that horse. It is dragging the entire community down.

Fix the thing and get on with it. Next issue. How will we deal with the next 10 years?

Red tape on the cameron street bridge .....

Let me remove the PC from my posts ....

They went after green dollars. That is not a green project. Who ever thought it could be should be given serious consideration to a sideways promotion, that includes people on Council.

Continuing with Lethbridge as a model, and perhaps even moreso as an example to show we are not in this alone.

The previous were the positive parts of Lethbrdge. The mayor went on to describe some of the challenges which are really not foreing to any community in Canada, including PG

• Many businesses are struggling to meet staff demands and there are virtually no vacancies at day-care centres.

• Housing prices are also starting to climb. The average single family home costs about $227,000 — 25 per cent more than it did last year.

• Social problems are also on the rise. The city’s homeless population has doubled in the past year to about 600, according to a recent count. Tarleck said projects are underway to build more sustainable housing.

• The city is also concerned with rising crime. Drug- and gun-related crime, once the domain of big cities, has reached Lethbridge. The new police chief, Tom McKenzie, appointed in December, has identified organized crime and crystal meth as key issues.

Bringing that home to PG.

• We know we supposedly lost what could have been a key success storey to Salmon Arm - the trailer building factory - due to shortage of labour plus high wage demand of specialized labour. We see signs all over the place asking for help in McJobs, something that has not happened for decades.

• Housing is ditto, except we are still a bit lower than Lethbridge, depending on when assessments were done.

• Are figures for the number of homeless here published? How do we compare to the 600? Waht is the city doing to light a fire under the provincila ministry responsible? It seems that we may have another communication problem based on latest report. Too many of those. Whose fault? Certainly not mine nor Ben's. We cannot afford such lack of communication. Do something about it whoever at Council is reading this.

• We know about the crime. A new police station is not going to do much to solve that problem. We need to understand priorities of where we spend taxpayer monies and we need police chiefs who are held accountable by the public for the programs they set in place and the adequacy of them.

So, there are other challenges we have that must be addressed before they bite us in the ass even further. What are tactics used by other communities in the past. What are tactics we are using now? Do we need to change them or are they proving to be successful?

Running a city is multi-dimensional. One cannot deal with a few things here and there and send out glowing reports while there are other brush fires which have been allowed to grow. It is not a part time job.

Finally, to the political front. Does this sound familiar?

• Tarleck remains optimistic Lethbridge’s growth will be sustainable and appropriate — as long as the province keeps the city on its “radar screen.”

• “There’s been so much talk about the Edmonton-Calgary corridor and the tarsands,” Tarleck said. “There’s a danger that Lethbridge and southwest Alberta gets left out of the equation.”

• Tarleck said he’s worried this has already happened, thanks to a cabinet shuffle by Alberta’s new premier, Ed Stelmach. The region lost all three of its cabinet ministers.

• “My biggest priority (for 2007) is going to be meeting with the premier and members of the cabinet and making sure they don’t lose the focus on Lethbridge,” Tarleck said. “It’s incredibly important that Lethbridge not be forgotten.”

So ... PG

• Switch reference of tarsands to the 2010 Olympics and things start to sound the same.

• We still have two cabinet ministers locally. and the province is hinting that they will put some investments into this area not only for 100 year long transportation projects, but also shorter term projects.

• I think we are actually relatively well served as far as the mayor's connection with the provincial cabinet ministers, at least the local ones.

So, I would give PG some better marks in this area than Lethbridge should get from the public info available there.

Owl:"First off ... I hope red tape will cause the Cameron street birdge to be delayed for decades, when a small bridge will actually be required."

Then, in my humble opinion, just tear it down! Very few people want to look at that blocked off thing sitting there and deteriorating for decades!

Obviously, it has already been decided to replace the old superstructure with a two-lane concrete one.

Now, how can that get done as fast as possible, seeing that more than a year has been lost dithering around instead of removing the old superstructure last year when it did not interfere with the salmon spawning runs?

It is that kind of indecision and lack of enthusiasm I am bemoaning.

Off topic, I notice nuthing on this website mentioned about the Black Orchid fiasco. One has to wonder, eh? Lot of potential badmouthing maybe? Jest wunderin'.

Oh well, maybe the savings in snow removal this winter might go a long way towards fighting and paying the upcoming lawsuit. Again, jest wunderin'.

Black Orchid won. She gets her licence, and the city has to issue it.
That performance was ridiculous anyhow. How do you stop people using a service by telephone?
City should have a red face over this one, and not from imbibing over a limit!!

Diplomat.

The Cameron Street bridge is an infrastructure planning exercise. It is a real exercise. City Hall has received several studies of how to replace the bridge in that location. To the best of my knowledge, there is no study which identifies that the thing is actually being required or, if it is, what other realistic alternatives are there. The closest we got to that was that a bridge a bit further down the river would serve virtually the same industrial traffic purpose and would be half the cost of replacing the existing bridge. I am still trying to get to the bottom of why that was ejected. It was the one the engineers recommended.

The bridge was abandoned by the province in agreement with the city and a new crossing was built in a part of town where there is more traffic.

It was the city's choice to keep it. If they made that decision based on information that it was required, they also made the decision that it was adequate as a one lane bridge. Subsequently they built a very expensive access to the bridge on the south side of the river. That access is designed for a single lane, not a double lane bridge.

Given that, with the thinking that the bridge may be required as a double lane bridge in the future, they should have also decided what the traffic threshold would be at which time the bridge would be double laned. At the same time, they should have maintained the existing structure properly so that it would survive till the threshold was achieved. They failed to do that.

The whole thing is looked upon these days as risk management. What is the risk of doing this versus that versus the other?

One of the known entities is that if the bridge was to be replaced at exactly the same location, that the crossing would be out of commission for at least two years. That is simply a logistical engineering fact and has nothing to do with bureaucracy. Of course, in time of war or in time of complete cut-off of a population base, one could put a bridge in place within a month or less. Fish very quickly become secondary when people’s lives are at stake. The river is a bit fast moving, but it is possible to float a bridge temporarily, stayed against the current. The military used to be as good building the things as blowing them up.

So, were I on the side of promoting the Cameron street bridge rebuilding and in addition on the side that it should be built in the same location and that it needed t be expanded to a two way bridge, then what would I do?

Simple. I would not have approved $750,000 to repair it. I would have started design right then and there with the intention of building it no matter what happened. At the same time, I would be making the best case to the province and possibly the feds to assist financially. Finally, I would have made sure that I would have put some money into giving me the best chance to get those funds. There are people who do such things for a living. It is worthwhile to spend some money to reduce the risk of not getting $10 million. 1% of that is $100,000. I would also have included industry in those discussions including getting money from them since it is a money saver for them.
If that had happened over a year ago when the bridge was closed, the contractors would be working on putting the new piers in place, or if an alternate would have included testing the existing piers, they may even be placing the superstructure now. In either case, it would have been ready for traffic by the late fall of 2007, two years after it was closed, unless some unforeseen engineering problem arose.

And we could have been paying off $10 to $20 million dollar loan. Or, we could have lucked out with our promotions company and be only $3 to $6 million further in the hole.

So, this is what we get for electing a mayor who was elected because he could make decisions. That was one of the issues in choice A or choice B, if I recall. And it was on this very issue!!!!

So, I did not run this through my PC filter again. I mean, we were all here during the elections and we all knew what the isues were. Or did we?

;-)

The city has had losses on morality issues before. Morality is not a legal issue. I do not know how long it takes for that to sink in. They obviously do not get good legal advice or they simply go ahead anyway against the legal advice. I would love to know which it is.

Shortly after I came to this town they were trying to do something quite similar with "adult" stores. I forgot what exactly the details were, but it dealt with zoning them out of existence.

I often rile up Owl with the three words 'you missed the point', lol, but the facts are he was bang on with this latest comment, ditto for Ben...

"So, key question. Who is defining our goals and where do we take part in this?"

Diplomat the cure to the throw back problem is a BCSTV type electoral system that builds bi-partisan governments and not ongoing ideological driven political campaigns.

Owl I have a lot of family in Lethbridge in the farming (wind and cattle) and home building industry and you are right that they are a good model for PG to follow. My cousins have 8 homes on the go right now and business is good. There commitment to their community trail systems is what I enjoyed about that city.

Owl, your talking to the converted and I read all of you post the entire 3249 words of it. You really have a "cause" going but your spinning your wheels. You should of taken my advice and read "Winter winds: What do they bring?

The City of Lethbridge sounds like a great place to live. They certainly have a great Mayor when he talks about a place to live. I have also said it before that when the City of Prince George is a place that people want to live in they can stop dreaming at City hall.

Even the bridge came up and I'll just give you a 30 sec clip. The Mayor promised a bridge and the 600 odd votes were enough to get him re-elcted so now we have the entire Council to support this "cause" because they are all sheep and are following this hair brained idea to be re-elected.

And as I walk .....away from this I wonder what your "cause" might be.

Cheers

Ah hell I forgot, I'm getting old, been here to long. I have bookmarked the City of Lethbridge and will study it further. The best friend I ever had was born and raised in Lethbridge. And I have top share this with you I may just be heading that way.

Cheers

>"The Mayor promised a bridge..."<

Can't he do what virtually ALL politicans do: Break his promise???

As owl said (at least I think owl did): we don't really need that bridge now!

When we want politicians to keep their promises they break them - and when we want them to break them, they stubbornly refuse to do so!

Colin, just tell us: "I changed my mind, we are going to demolish the thing and NOT borrow another 7 or 8 million bucks!"

I'm outa here...

You should of taken my advice and read "Winter winds: What do they bring?

??? .. I did and made comments on it ..... you been asleep at the wheel?

To that I add ... whatever happened to Stand up for the North .... Whatever happened to PACHA ...
go go North Nechako!!!!

There is a saying about seizing the moment. If one does not follow through relatively quickly and keep promising and keep promising, and have nothing to show for it, then it is time to move on till the next opportune time comes along, if ever.

Cause, there is no cause here. I showed you a red cape and you think it is still there. :-)

I like this city. I will repeat once more that like several others, I came here by choice for the rest of my life. I am a citizen of this community, and I am making my voice heard in several ways. This site is but one of them. I participate. I provide feed back ..... you know, the kind people say they want in a democratic, transparent society .... the kind which sometimes supports, and other times tries to steer in other directions the best one can without a vote on such matters.

I am also a glutton for punishment. Someone told me at one time that they chose me to represent them in a matter because they know I can take a dressing down and end up winning in the end rather than getting upset or simply walking out as they would do if they handled the matter themselves.

As I said previously, learn how to roll with the punches

On another note ..... to quote from Ben:

"Bioenergy is, in all likelihood, a product of the future."

Bioenergy from wood is about as low of an end use of the resource one can get. It goes back to the stoneage just presented in a new form and new technology to burn it more effectively.

I realize we do not need that many string instruments, nor that we even have the right type of wood for that very high end use of wood.

Perhaps pellets will bridge a gap for a relatively short period of time. But it will not be how we get energy in the world 20+ years from now as oil and gas will diminish in quantity.

I think we should make more burl bowls .... now there is a high end use of local wood! Wonder how many of those we could sell. Great hobby for us old folks .... almost pays better than McJobs ;-)

If the dog hadnt stopped to ---- he would have caught the rabbit. We seem to have a lot of
(1) If only ida
(2) We shoulda
(3) We Coulda
(4) We mighta

But not to many we dida's.

Part of the problem with this City is that most of the Major decisions are being driven by the Mayor with a council that seems not to be to involved.

Lets look at some interesting points.
(1) Revenue from Casinos $2.5 Million a year.
(2) Revenue from Teresan ???
(3) Revenue from Gas Tax Transfer???
(4) Revenue from fines in PG Area approx $1 Million.
These are all additional revenues to the City, and I am sure that I dont have them all, and yet you can be gauranteed that our taxes will rise. Why is this? Why cant we lower our taxes, and concentrate on the basics.

For starters this City needs
(1) Lower taxes. Target should be for the lowest of a City of this size in Canada.
(2) More senior citizens residences at a reasonable cost.
(3) A debt reduction program (Much like the one described for Lethbridge)
(4) A comprehensive long term plan to repair City streets and infrastructure.
(5) An audit of City spending at City Hall, to determine where we are and where we will be in 10/20 years.
(6) An indepth study of the cost of running this City ie: Staffing, buildings, etc; I suggest that we spend more than any other City of this size in Canada.
(7) We have to get a better system in place when it comes to receiving money from other levels of Government. As it is, this money comes with strings attached, and therefore drives the City to dream up projects that they would never consider if they got the money with no strings. The so called Co-Generation project to heat buildings is a classic example. So is the Sports Plex on the hill.
(8) We need a comprehensive plan to attract tourists. As it is now we put a few adds in Magazines and wait for them to come, but the truth is that there is nothing to see when they get here. There is a huge potential for tourism in this City and it would cost Millions to get it set up properly, however once in place it would provide entertainment and jobs for years to come. This initiave has be be driven by the private sector with Goverment funding if it is to get off the ground. We need more that a Wal Mart store and a Burger King.

Citizens have to get more involved with how the City spends their money, and they have to become more aware of what the issues are, however this is a huge problem, as most people could care less. Chomskey refers to these people as **Joe sixpack** They sit in front of the TV, Watch Sports, Eat Hot Dogs, Drink Beer, and could care less what goes on around them.

Palopu, if you ran for mayor based on your last post you would have my vote.

“Target should be for the lowest of a City of this size in Canada.”

Unrealistic target since each city sits in a different environment with respect to the provincial politics, tax base relationship to neighbouring communities, etc.

Quick case in point. I suspect South Fort George had pretty low taxes. Just look at the infrastructure they left behind, or lack thereof. It is easy to have the lowest taxes if that is the goal. Just cut them and let chit happen. An idiotic statement Palopu.

Look at Alberta and the payments made by the province to assist its cities.

http://www.finance.gov.ab.ca/publications/budget/budget2006/tax.html

How does Alberta do it? Easy, the rest of Canada supports them by buying their oil and they hog the benefits. As what written several decades ago, they are the blue eyed sheiks in every way. And they ain’t sharing. They, similar to BC, do not educate the people in this country. They steal them from the “poor” Atlantic provinces.

Tax structures in this country with respect to cities and more senior governments need a serious overhaul. The mayors have been asking for that and Jane Jacobs wrote an excellent book about it just before she died.

http://www.citymayors.com/government/canada_government2.html

So then you give a list of the things we should have. Some of them have user fees associated with them, others none or only partial.

So, I hit hard on that first one because it needs some qualifications. Also, because you have a great wish list which I can certainly support, but many have local tax implications.

Some of them deal with what I would call a loss of trust in the city governance. I mean they cannot even get a mayor’s task force on the air quality going. They were beating around the bush for months, saying they met, saying a report is forth coming, etc. etc. I mean, do they have anyone handling communications at the city at all? Do they take us for idiots?

By now what we need is a Council task force looking into the operations of the city. Never mind the air. Get the real problem fixed first, the air will be a piece of cake after that.

So who here is up to meeting on this? Let's get off this public forum and do something about it.

Hey Kimbo ..... do you smell "cause"? ... ;-)

He needs more than one vote .....

Besides, politics is not the way to go as far as I am concerned. You just becomne one of them. There are better ways to handle this sort of thing.

Fame wins local elections; not policy, not ideas, not capabilities, not credentials.

Fame.

So Bohemian, if I do the golden mile streak with no cloths every Sunday I will win elections? I'm surprised no one has done that yet. Does it matter what you're famous for?

Owl I see your point on the lowest taxes of any city our size. I guess it depends on what taxes, who it is that pays for them (ie residents, industry), and other factors like the level of industry in this town as opposed to others. Could be a complicated statement that requires many qualifiers without specifics known of his 'policy' proposal.

I just got all carried away with number 8 as it hit the spot and the rest all looked good enough. I agree 100% with his 8th
idea.

Owl. This was a **target** we all know that it would never happen, however if the target was for the lowest taxes, we might end up somewhere in the middle. As it is now we have absolutely no target to reduce taxes, and in fact the Mayor is **hell bent** to find ways of spending money and increasing taxes.

My point is if we can get our taxes somewhat lower that other Cities and still maintain the best services (Which we could if we quit wasting money) then we would have one more reason for people to stay here and people to come here.

As someone mentioned the other day, it is one thing to talk about improving the downtown, however on the other hand we cant even keep the streets clean. The place looks like something out of the old west with beaten down buildings, steeled in windows, hacked up trees, etc; etc;.

How long do we allow the Insurance Companies to leave a burnt out building in the Centre of Downtown, directly across from the Government building which is supposed to be the **Centre piece** of downtown rehabilitation. Who's responsible to get this cleaned up? What are they doing about it? Are we to beleive that this building could remain where it is for the next year or so??

I could go on but I wont. In any event you get my drift.

Chadermando:

Famous, not infamous.

Well Owl if you have a cause it’s a good one. And I’m not giving you shit I’m just trying to keep you focused.. Your on the money.

As has been mentioned each community is different and needs different solutions. The population is probably more homogenous in the City of Lethbridge so its probably easier to arrive at solutions. We are obsessed here in PG with the notion that its us against the lower mainland.

When I first arrived in the Kootenies many years ago another prairie gopher said to me, “these guys have been living in the mountains to long they are getting narrow minded”.

Do we need to go to Lethbridge to see how they did it. All we need to do is get back on track to where we were in early 80's. In the late 70's we got the library and the civic center. There was a referendum for 28 million dollars to build the Multiplex, the swimming pool and the arts center. This infrastructure helped a great deal to the establishment of UNBC. So why did we drop the ball? In 1982 the economy went all to hell and we have never gotten back on track..

I can’t go into the remainder of the 80's as I was transferred out of Prince George and didn’t get back until 91. I too like PG and all of my family live here today.

We broke WAC Bennet’s first rule on the economy and that is when the economy is good start saving so that you can spend when things get tough. All we have now is this 200 thou Mayor that travels the world and wants to be a prince and prime minister all in one breath. So why would any senior government take him seriously ? We have been divided by regional organizations and it gets more difficult to find good leadership. And these regions are top heavy with management were a lot of our resources are going. This includes City hall.

There are those who will say this is a lot of bla... bla but the fact remains that when things go wrong we need to look within ourselves.

Cheers

And speaking of lowering taxes why don't we lower the cost of Hydro instead of selling it to the Americans so they can build cheap industry.

Cheers

Over 4100 words (so far) on a single day's 'topic'.

A new record, I believe, for OWL250.com

It is good to see someone is a bean counter here Jeth ... :-)

and befoe anyone else says it ... the more beans ... the more gas .... talk about bioenergy opportunities !!!!

That's the olde kimbo I thought I knew.

Agree with you 100% on that post ....

I think the logical first step would be to drastically downsize all forms of government in this country. This would result in much lower taxes . If you add up the total amount of taxes the average person pays (Income tax, GST, PST, gasoline tax, municipal tax) the total amount has to be close to 50% of their income. Governments can never provide services cheaper than than the private sector can, because people spend their own money a lot more carefully than they spend someone elses money. I think it is very obvious to most people that a fairly sizable portion of the taxes we all pay is lost to government waste, inefficiency, hand outs to friends, and corruption. The total amount of government buildings in Prince George (Federal, Provincial, and Municipal) is unbelievable. Does anyone know what percentage of Prince George's working population works for some form of government? P.S. Keep up the good work on your web site Ben.

"Governments can never provide services cheaper than than the private sector can"

That's why the medical system in the USA is the most expensive in the world ... and one of the least equitable.....

And, of course, we all know there is no corruption in the private sector ..... we take, at least the USA takes it as a mater of fact that a CEO gets a $250 million buy out.

They are now going after that on CNN ... I forget whether it was the one dealing with Home Depot or who it was, but the CEO makes more in the first 2 or so hours at work in the year than the average worker in the company does all year.

And, of course, that is not corruption .... it is blatent glad handing ..... pay the guy who gets the workers to work for the least, the most ....

If someone, anyone, comes up with a good idea which is going to make the company $100 million a year more, I think they deserve to get a $1 million or even 2 or 3 million in bonus ... but to just come to the office everyday and pontificate, I am sorry, not worth it ...

But we do not have a say, do we????

You can stop shopping there, you can refuse to buy a product ..... pretty soon you'll be growing your own wool and knitting your own socks .....

To me that stuff is all boisterous talk without substance .... as with everything, some services are better handled by private companies and others by public bodies. And the mix changes over time and changes based on local conditions.

BTW ... does anyone here know how much of your tax dollars actually go to private companies rather than government employees? ... has it increased or decreased in the last 20 years????

Do we have better service now with highways being maintained by private companies? Is it cheaper?

Edmonton cannot get enough private snow clearing companies to clear the streets of the city. Why not? Because it is easier for the operators to have fixed contracts with private landowners, such as shopping malls, etc. They get paid an annual fee no matter how much or how little it snows. Such a deal! And the good thing about it is that you pay for that each time you pick up a box of kleenex at those malls, while you pay the same taxes for less service because everyone loves privatization. If the city now does what the shopping centres do, how many taxpayers would cry GOVERNMENT WASTE if they were to find out?

A much superior system, wouldn't you agree?

BTW, Jeth ... that's 451 more words according to my counter .....

I realize this is a "gentleman's club" and that you are having a lot of fun but where is the action from all this wisdom?
You know you have wisdom; what you don't have is action.
Prince George is one of the most unique cities in Canada; it is built at the confluence of two rivers. Where else does this happen?
I think men don't always see beauty. We are surrounded by it and yet it is invisible to men. Men think "How can we exploit it? How many bridges? How fast does traffic have to move? How many hazardous goods can we have travelling through it?"
Where is the beauty?
You are wise men indeed. I recognize it and I appreciate it. Instead of allowing the exploitation of our valley when are you going to stand up for the beauty and naturalness of what we have? Tourism would race to see it. Have you looked at First Avenue and how ugly it is; yet it is our closest street to the river. Come on guys, challenge the Council, educate the people and let's see you get "out there". You are bright enough, knowledgable enough and just need the spurt of energy that changes society instead of just talking about it
A more positive City for 2007 and you can do it!

451 too many, according to my counter.

What in the world does a 5000 word rant about over-paid 'American' CEO's, snow clearing at private shopping malls and GOVERNMENT WASTE have to do with the subject at hand?

Jeth ... if you can't figure that out ... maybe you should not be reading this ...

;-)

Jethro. The short answer is **Nothing**

I agree with Charles, he is on the right track. Only **God** knows how many Government employees there are in Prince George, certainly they would be in the Majority, and the amazing thing is we pay all their salaries out of tax dollars.

Great salaries, good benefits, wonderful working conditions, ahhhhh" the life of a civil servant. Work Monday to Friday - Week-ends off, parking provided, etc; etc; etc;

Some people would have you beleive that thats the way it should be, however at some point excessive Government can break the bank. Its not as if Government workers pay taxes, so they are a direct drain on those who do. Some people will tell you that Government workers provide a service, which is a play on words. What they should really be saying is that **Taxpayers** PAY Government workers to provide a service. Without the Taxpayer guess what **No Government**

What came first the Chicken or the Egg.

"Its not as if Government workers pay taxes, so they are a direct drain on those who do."

Palopu .... are you on drugs??? ... What dream world do you live in? ..... how can you write such idiotic things? It just does not make any sense to me.

Anyone else out there agree with the statement that government workers do not pay any tax? I mean, how can anyone have a reasonable discussion when you see statements such as that?

Foo738 ...

You’re being far too nice!!!

Oh ... cities on river confluence ... have you ever been to Quesnel? Fraser R. and Cottonwood R.?

Most old cities in the world are on either a confluence of two or more rivers or a confluence of a river and a lake or ocean. The reason is simple. A transportation node.

Still true today for all transportation nodes. Except we now have man-made nodes – canals, roads, rail, air. Atlanta is a prime example of tremendous growth resulting from being selected as a major air transportation hub.

Actually when you look at virtually all major older cities in the world, they were founded at the confluence of at least two bodies of water - two rivers; a river and an ocean; a river and a lake.

European example I can think of right away
London: Thames + Fleet
Paris – Seine + Oise (west) + Marne (east)
Berlin: Spree + Havel
Madrid: Jarama + Manzanares
Zuerich: Sihl + Limmat
Belgrade Danube + Sava

North American examples
Ottawa: Ottawa + Rideau
Montreal: Ottawa + St. Lawrence
Calgary: Bow and Elbow
Toronto: Don and Humber + Lake
Portland: Columbia + Willamette

But I do understand what you are talking about. We are missing the natural resources of the City which most cities have by now taken advantage of as ammeneties for residents and tourists since tranportation corridors have been relocated for efficiency purposes.

Ottawa built its city hall on the confluence of the two rivers and the Parliament Buildings and Chateau on the confluence of the Canal and the Ottawa River.

While Edmonton does not have a confluence of two navigable rivers, it does have the largest stretch of urban parkland in North America; 25 kilometres along both banks of the North Saskatchewan River. They can enjoy a vast wilderness park in an urban setting, with easy access to the river.

So, we have a long way to go. Somehow I get this feeling that we might be on the verge of starting to do something about such things. People are getting fed up enough to start acting I think.

-------------------
So now we have moved from the topic about the mayor of Smithers realizing a little late that his is a one industry town to the topic of cities on rivers and how they originated on transportation nodes and many now use those natural corridors for non-transportation purposes.

Isn’t it neat how human conversation drifts from one thing to another so smoothly? The human brain is a really amazing organ when it can follow a string with multiple linkages, all eventually coming back on themselves since it is all so interdependent.

Maybe it would be much easier if we could all be like my dog ... one track minds … food .. food .. food.

;-)

Okay .... so it is late ... Fraser and the Quesnel ... :-)

Owl, the confluence of the Cottenwood River and the Adam Creek on the Quesnel Hixon highway has a nice little community for those out on a scenic drive.

IMO Ben should use the web site to do a city and regional SWOT analysis.

Make it a five day event. Day one a thread on Strengths, day two Weakness, day three Opportunities, day four Threats, and then day five could be stratagy advocation based on the previous four days. Two weeks in total starting with PG and then the next week a regional one.

Everyone would have to stay on topic for it to work though. Conversations are great, but you don't want to side track a starategy session.

It would be a great way for everyone to collectively contribute ideas towards a grass roots strategy awareness, and be a good process for others in a changing community to emulate.

Just an idea.

The HBC post in Fort St. James is a national treasure. It should be getting tons of visitor via Prince George. Yes, they need more visitors services in the community of Fort St James but the HBC site could do with a lot more public awareness. Also, just make sure the Looney Tunes in Ottawa dont make a mess of it like Shirley Bond and her bunch did of provincially-owned historic sites a few years ago.

January 7th 2007

>For more than three decades, foreign oil companies wanting into Iraq have been like children pressed against the sweet shop window - desperately seeking to feast on the goodies but having no way of getting through the door.

That could soon change.

The Iraqi Council of Ministers is expected to approve, as early as today, a controversial new hydrocarbon law, heavily pushed by the US and UK governments, that will radically redraw the Iraqi oil industry and throw open the doors to the third-largest oil reserves in the world. It would allow the first large-scale operation of foreign oil companies in the country since the industry was nationalised in 1972.<

Mission accomplished.

I think that would be a great start Chadermando. Like Foo738, I believe something needs to come of this. Maybe this is the place to start.

I would even try not to digress too much, not that I am the only one to do so. I know you, for one, have been frustrated on several occasions that there really is no place to post something "off topic" that you felt the urgency to share, that you simply picked a location and posted it.

Actually, there is a "letter to the editor" section under "views", but it does not get used.

I would like to go back a bit. It is decieving to think that the private sector can provide us with goods and services at a reasonable cost.

The private sector taxes the hell out of us. First comes profit then the cost of promoting their service or product. Imagine the cost of a full page add in Macleans magazine by a car manufacturer. The costs are all related to competion between the producers of our goods and service.

I'm not saying that the government should go into manufacturing but that there are a lot of hidden costs in the products that we use.

I was employed by the government for many years and I worked a hell of a lot harder with the government then I did at the pulp mill. And I know the guy's that worked on our highways were e dedicated hard work group of people and often got little thanks for their effort.I can recall getting into my truck and driving to Stewart on January 2nd to work at my trade. That was a thirteen hour drive and I got paid for eight hours (union wages). I remember wearing out a set of tire chains on one three week stint (three weeks in and one week out) in the Stewart area.

Cheers

I just went there again and can see why it does not get used. It does not open a text box to allow a post.

I think once one gets beyond salaries and working conditions, which in my case I have found no different in gov or private sector, once simply has to realize that it goes beyond the private sector providing us with goods and services at a reasonable cost. It goes to the private sector providing us with services only when it can make a buck. Which is fair enough.

However, one cannot talk about closing the doors at the border of a region, a province, or a country, and forcing the private sector to do things they find to be anti free marketplace.

If we flock to buy the cheapest product because we, as consumers, are a key influence on the marketplace, then they will get it as cheap as they can whererever in the world, local jobs and child labour laws and lead in jewelry be dammed.

If for those who think such things can be regulated, then we just have to look at what is happening right now and what has happened when things such as alcohol and gambling were banned. It goes underground and becomes part of the black market and criminal element.

So, as with most things in our lives, one has to find the happy medium and tweak it as the conditions change.

Talk. Talk. Talk. Just go about your business, eh. You do have a routine doncha? Every one does. Some save or try to save the world, some don't. Talk doesn't change the world. If you ever want to do anything, you have THE bank and three levels of government doing everything in their power to stop you. Altruism aint the answer. Have a nice day. I will.

BTW, newspapers across the country have been having a dialogue on the environemnt in the past couple of days due to possible changes in the Haprer government. There is an excellent article in the Sunday edition of the Ottawa Citizen laying out some of the realities. They have an excellent science reporter.

Some statements from the column:

"Baird's effectiveness as environment minister will largely be judged by the Conservative government's plan to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. The minister must start by providing us with solid, factual information on the source of those emissions and a credible plan to reduce them." ---------- Bang on and shows how little we know and how much has to be done.

"No federal politician could utter the words "national energy policy," but we do need one. How can it make sense to send clean hydroelectric power from Quebec and Manitoba south to the U.S. when Ontario continues to rely on coal power?" -------- Bingo, we really are not a country with a single purposes, are we? We are a bunch of provinces who could not care less about the others. We have yet to learn how to trade with each other.

"Exploitation of the tar sands in Alberta is causing a boom the province can barely cope with, but it's short-term thinking. We're trading profit today for energy security in the future, all to feed the Americans' oil thirst. Producing oil from the tar sands is hugely energy consumptive and the tar sands project is our biggest new source of greenhouse gas emissions. At a minimum, the pace of tar sands expansion needs to be slowed." ------ tell tht to someone from Alberta .. or an oil company exec. However, Albertan papers are talking about it.

"Environmentalists decry the federal government's $1.5 billion annual subsidy of the tar sands. It's money that could be spent much more wisely on positive environmental projects." ---- now this is news to me. How many here still think we are talking about private enterprise in the oil industry? $1.5 billion to tar sands .... comparatively nada to MPB. Government waste?

Anyway, enough. Another long post. And yes, this affects Smithers and how they can survive.

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/columnists/story.html?id=8f94ecf8-e474-453b-b2a9-1deef374d31c

Hopefully the full article is visible at the above link for those who are interested in such things.

Actually it is write, write , write ....

;-)

Today's question:

What do you call the guy at the dinner party that talks incessently and pretends to be an expert on absolutely every field of human endeavour?

Hey Jeth-that is called being a "bloody bore."
Everyone else at the dinner party contemplates becoming an "escape" artist.
By the way, owl, spend a little more time with your dog. They really can be a lot of fun, entertaining in their own way, and quite intelligent. I pity an animal who has a master who only pays any attention to their dog when it requires feeding-or does the dog think of food because you may be neglecting to feed it?
I hope you do not consider your so called "pet" a "disposable." Spend time with it-you will probably get to really like it!
Oh, and by the way, Palopou, all government employees pay taxes. The only ones exempt are natives-they pay, but they get it back!! Good deal if you have the right background.
Prince George will never amount to a "hill of beans" as a tourist attraction, so quit already with the thought of promoting it as such.
Oh well, just a few thoughts-nothing of any great consequence.

"What do you call the guy at the dinner party that talks incessently and pretends to be an expert on absolutely every field of human endeavour?"

The guest .... as with clients ... the guest is always right ....

;-)

"Prince George will never amount to a "hill of beans" as a tourist attraction"

The exact same words (except of the Prince George part) a fisherman said to Hemingway in the local dive of a bar when he hung out in the quaint Spanish fishing village some 70 years ago .....

;-)
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=travel&res=9404E5DF1138F937A15752C1A963948260

"travel, young man, travel...." it will open your eyes to what has been, what is, and what can be ...

Trusted .... my dog is sitting on my lap as I write this .....

Have you ever tought your dog how to track? I have. What do you use? ... food!

My god...

Is there a switch on this guy..?

Or a power cord that can be yanked out of the wall?

Jeth! Does it really matter?

On the question of Government workers paying taxes. We all know that they have taxes deducted off their pay cheques the same as anyone else, however it goes a little deeper than that.

Lets assume that the Government pays an employee $1000.00 per month and then taxes him $200.00. In essence the Government employee is working for $800.00 per month because the Government never actually gave him $1000.00 Now if a person was working for a private company and they paid him $1000.00 per month, they would deduct $200.00 and send it to the Government and the Government would be ahead $200.00 cash. In the case of the Government Employee no actual cash ever changed hands, it was merely an accounting transaction.

Having Government workers pay taxes is only a bookkeeping ploy. At the end of the day all Government spending is paid for by Taxpayers. Government Employees are part of Government spending. If we did concede that Government Employees paid taxes, then the next logical conclusion was that they paid these taxes out of the tax money I paid to the Government. In other words I pay taxes, the Government hires an employee pays him x dollars and then takes back x dollars in taxes. This whole transaction comes out of my tax dollar because the only money that the Government has is tax dollars. Get it??

I think Palopu is serious ..... LOL

Palopu, but what about when that employee pays GST on a purchase from their disposable income, or better yet pays for a hair cut and the hair dresser pays taxes... Where are we going to draw the line. Surely the spending of tax dollars generates more tax revenue depending on how it is spent and recycled into the economy. If that is the case then where are our tax dollars best spent for greatest recycling of cash into the economy for creation of more tax dollars?

Better yet what tax dollar spent will replicate itself or multiply itself through recycling in the economy as a result of the original expenditure. Would that be a government profit off balance sheet?