Taxes will be going up and up and up!

" ...... nd we have come up with some good ideas".

Make it a LEED building. Grass the roof. Face windows south and shade them on the outside from the summer sun. Use geothermal heat exchange. Provide solar panels.

To make it people friendly and get away from bunker appearance and attitude:

1. Lots of green space at street level for local park.
2. Public washrooms.
3. On site Tim Horton.
4. Free wireless internet

Maybe Colin will find a nice design in China

No, I think Colin has sampled all he needs in China. I beleive in the spirit of the recent Tim Horton's adds showing a cross country tour of all the "Timmys" in Canada , Colin will do the same but slightly altering the "Timmys" itinerary to a more appropriate venue closer to Colin's taste and expertise.

I wonder if the cost $21.5 Million includes the cost of the land that the City purchased some time ago. Or do they now consider this **free land**.

It is important to keep your eye on the ball, as the continuing saga of City development continues. Lets see what we have do date.

City buys property at 4th and Victoria.
City allows new Casino to be built on property it owns at 7th and Brunswick. This frees up the 4th and Victoria property.

City builds new police station at 4th and Victoria. This frees up property at the old police station at 8th and Brunswick.

The City has Initiatives Prince George form a committee to look at locating a Performing Arts Centre downtown.

Speculation has it that the City will locate the new Performing Arts Centre on the old Police Station property.

Whats next????

Is the City negotiating to sell the Property that presently houses the Playhouse Theatre on 16 and 97 to Private Investors.

The City could tell those people who presently use the Theatre that they will be able to use the facilities at the Performing Arts Centre once it is built.

Who knows?

Its a good spot! All the drunken winos will come to the front door of the detachment still thinking a liquor store is there! Put the drunk tank near the front entrance!

Where did the idea come from that the present RCMP building was designed to add five more floors to it?

I suppose maybe thats why we need a 4% levy. Seems the City owns all the land.

Cheers

The present RCMP is designed to be expanded to 5 floors. Actually, the CNC is also designed to go to 5 floors.

I may have been the individual to post that information.

Such investments are comparable small investments in the future - larger column footings and columns is all that is needed. The amount of additional concrete and steel is minimal. Forming costs virtually the same.

If that building is not going to be used for a police station, which I gather it is not, the best and easiest conversion would be office.

The value sits in the property and the structural frame. A three storey addition is possible. Much or the electrical and mechanical is probably best removed, along with some or all of the exterior skin, as well as interior partitions.

With a good architect and the right client, you will never recognize the building once it is refurbished. It is in a great location for commercial retail on the ground floor, and even into the second floor. Finally, a Starbucks downtown and right accross from the library. ;-)

A PAC? ... forget about it in that location unless additional land is assembled and the existing buildings on thsat land torn down. That would make it very expensive property and a poor investment decision.

If one wants a LEED project, one should not be tearing down good quality, relatively flexible buildings to build new ones in a community with plenty of available property downtown.

There is, however, discussion about studio 2880 moving into that building, I am told. That would also be doable. Of course the south east corner Starbucks would then become Virginia's Chai and Garden Greens.

;-)

With respect to the Playhouse and a PAC. The two are quite different.

A PAC would likely have in the order of 650 to 850 seats with a stage large enough to produce a ballet and have a full sized orchestra in an orchestra pit.

The Playhouse is a

see what happens when using the bracket for a less than symbol, the rest of the message gets cut off ... LOL

here is the rest:

The Playhouse is a less than 300 seat venue intended for smaller productions running over longer periods. To fit that into a larger theatre would not be the best use for such a space. It might work for a few years while the new theatre gears up for production companies who require that type of space. From a scheduling and marketing point of view it would be similar to putting the spruce kings and the cougars into the multiplex and let them figure out the schedule conflicts with their respective leagues.

Hey, there is an idea. Let' do that, declare the arena a heritage building, sell it to the PG Public Market group, get 20% of renovation costs from the federal government for refurbishing a heritage building, $500,000 from the province under their public space intiative, further dollars for building green features into the renovation, and have a wonderful indoor, year-round, public market befitting a winter cities community.

Here is the facility in Prince Albert someone made me aware of recently:

http://www.earawlinsoncentre.ca/theatre.htm

It comnbines art gallery and theatre in one complex. However, we already have a gallery. Notice who directs its operations and who manages those operations. The theatre is coming up to its 4th anniversary. The city is about half the size of PG with the primary market area about 85,000.

Musical buildings.

I have a great idea for the design of the new cop shop, how about a giant $ symbol ?

At $21.5 million, I think it would be cheaper just to put every criminal in town on a good pension.

The Arena is not much as a heritage building. When it was first built, within a matter of years the roof was found to be unsafe. (Engineering Problem) The City then had the roof held up with those big steel girders you see circiling the building. I suspect at some point it will be closed for good, and tore down.

I dont beleive the City would have any problem tearing down the **old** Police station, after all they are the ones who state that the building is to old even though it was built about 36 years ago. Then went and bought the CN Building on first avenue that was 37 years old.

You didnt see any indication that they were interested in renovating the Police Station at its present location, it seems they would rather spend $21.5 plus Million on a new building than do a 2/3 Million reno.

Whether the new PAC is any good for the Playhouse is immaterial, because if the City wants to sell the land the Playhouse is sitting on, then they can use the new PAC as a excuse in the short term, if it doesnt pan out who cares as the deed will be done.

One has to wonder why all of a sudden **out of the blue** the City and initiatives Prince George took an active interest in a PAC. You can be guaranteed that something is afoot.

Much like the Mayor and Zurowski all of a sudden coming up with the tax levy on road repair, which will save us interest, even though it was the Mayor and Council who decided to borrow the money in the first place. Common sense tells you that you cant have it both ways. If they now go and borrow money for the Police station, PAC, and other projects there will be no savings in interest rates. All we got was a 7.5% tax increase, thinly concealed in a large pile of **Bull**

Seems to me that the leadership coming out of city hall is a bit off kilter? There is nothing wrong with the present RCMP detachemnt that a few million would not fix.Something does seem out of whack here.Beware all politicians,local and otherwise,that stay to long at the fair!Thats how demi-gods are created, and sometimes it takes a serious shake up to get back on track.21 million makes no sense.There has to be more to this me thinks?

"One has to wonder why all of a sudden **out of the blue** the City and initiatives Prince George took an active interest in a PAC. You can be guaranteed that something is afoot."

It was in the $140,000 or so report that you have to sign your life away to get..... it is also the next major building on the original capital list, after the RCMP building ....

Loans on capital projects is one thing, loans on maintenance is another.

Bringing it into personal finances, it is most common to buy a house with a loan, the loan secured by the property. While people may get a loan to pay for re-rooofing, and other regular maintenance items, it is a better idea not to. If so, they are typical short term 3 or so month loans, not loans over 15 years.

On average, a 20 year old house may have annualized maintenance of $2000+ (roofing, painting, fences, driveway, deck, better insulated windows, furnace, hot water tank, flowers/shrubs, etc.). If you were to pay that $2000 off over a 15 year period, it could be around $200/year for Principal and interest. Do that every year for 15 years and by that time you would be paying $3,000 for principal and interest on something which would only have cost you $2,000 per year has you paid it regularly ever year. (the dollars I am using are constant 2007 dollars) So, it is an unwise move to keep on building up the principal you owe. Thus the reason why regular maintenance is not typically paid off over an extended period.

As far as the RCMP goes ion this community they have a sweet deal. They just got funded for another 4 people. One could say who cares, since they likely will not fill those position based on recent experience.

They are stating that they need more people to deal effectively with the crime in this community. But in the same breathg, they are not only stating, but they are showing, that they are incapable of recruiting for the positions they say they need.

So here is a Council that says that they want an effective force, and the effective force is saying they need more people, when they are already funded for 124 and can only provide 120 or so. How do they know that they need another 4? They were never fully staffed in the first place. Put in 124 and then see how well they work before asking for more. Also, get into the same thinking which goes on in the lower mainland and see how much efficience there is if the regional resources were pooled a bit more effectively.

May I suggest the infrastructure be built for a potential gallows be incorporated into the new police dept. building. Hey, ya never know. The Conservatives might bring back capital punishment. 85% of Canadians hope so. Jest a thought. I would hate to see executions privatized due to lack of foresight on some ones part in the construction of this new building.

PGTV news tonight reported this building was going to cost 12.5 million dollars. Does anyone know what the cost of this building is, is it 12.5 million, or is it 21.5 million?

21.5 is the number...not 12.5

Seems someone has transposed a one and a two.

Figures from the City Capital project summary sheets are as follows for the Police building:

2007 - $3.094 million (general fund)
2008 - $7.505 million (general fund)
2008 - $0.400 million (land develop fund)
2009 - $10.505 million (general fund)
total comes to $21.504 million ....

Cameron Street Bridge shows up as follows:
2007 - $0.250 million
2008 - $6.500 million
2009 - $2.750 million
total works out to $9.750 million

What the actual costs will be is yet to be seen.

Owl, going back to the design of the present RCMP building you tell us that it was designed with footings that would hold up to five stories. Im not being smart here but have you seen drwings or a design that will back up your information.

If the building was designed for five floors and the City wants to spend 20 plus million for a new building this can be the opening shot should we get a taxpayers association going.

Cheers

It is very rare indeed that planning to add floors to a building is a good idea. The problem boils down to our constantly changing building code. (Every 5 years). If you build the 1st say 3 stories to todays code then want to add the top three stories in 5 to 10 years, you are looking at having to upgrade the entire building to the new code. Depending on the changes that have taken place, those costs can often outwiegh any advantages. The present RCMP building is many years old and the code has changed many time since. I shudder to think of the compliance costs.

Owl is correct, the bull pen oops I mean building was designed to permit additional floors atop the existing. I suspect that one of the reasons for a new location is for the additional off street parking (assuming there is still room left on the lot after the building is erected) Not that I agree with the concept, to mee it makes more $en$e to renovate, put in a parkade on the spot of their existing parking lot, with a connector to the existing building, or just close off that part of Brunswick to allow for an addition and a parkade. Lets face it, the quantity surveyors say 21.5 million, they are usually low in their estimates, I say 32 million before they are done, plus much higher operating costs (larger building, more people, higher standards than the existing set up) You can bet that the cost of the land is not in that 21.5 estimate too. So why not renovate the existing structure? Not good enough for Prince Georges' finest? Do they have to keep up with their North district colleagues who got their new palace on fifth avenue? I would say fine if it was impossible to add on to the existing copshop but it isn't. I do not believe that it would cost more to bring the existing building up to code and add on a couple of floors than to buy the land and erect a new palace. I suppose a reno. would not have the same cachet as a new design, but we are talking about our money here, how about giving us a say in how it is spent?
metalman.

" .... have you seen drwings or a design that will back up your information."

Yes ... I can probably get you a copy if I really had to. But then an FOY at city hall will do the same thing. I bet you if you ask the engineer in charge of the project at City Hall he will tell you as well. Nothing to hide. Simply changing times.

You may remember the time City hall added floors to what was a two storey building. Same architect. Same habit.

Look at the library. Same thing. Podium designed to take an additional parking level below. Footings and columns are designed to carry that load. Will they ever build it? Who knows.

I have not gotten your e-mail yet. I can explain more.

Yes, building codes change. I have copies of everyone going back to 1970. To the layperson, or even one involved in construction but not building code assessment, what you say skabowl1 sounds quite reasonable. However, the change is really not that great that it would stop a major investment in a building from having to be discarded. Most building change over time, especially office buildings.

Buildings are living things. They are designed for flexibility. The police station is virtually an office building, other than the cells and secure corridors and garage entry system to separate those arrested from the remainder of the building.

Look at the hospital. The original part was built in the 60's I think. Many additions later nothing has been torn down. The ceiling space plus vertical service risers allow for changes.

The other thing about building codes: they are essentially the same throughout the world. The concepts are virtually identical. The detailed stuff may change here or there.

Paris has not been torn down since the last time Napoleon rode through the city People live in 200+ year old buildings and typically safer than they used to when they were first built.

The main problem of renovating an existing building is actually the logistcs of doing that while it is still occupied. Use the hopsital again as an example of how to do that.

The cop shop has undergone some major changes as well in the last 35 or so years. When space is being added, it is not usually as bad as when the space stays the same.

I can recall going in there during one renovation and discovering that rigid insulation which was glued to the exterior wall was loose. The adhesive had failed. Something one usually would not know unless wall finshes are remove. My standard had always been fasten stuff mechnically. I now had my proof that such was the quality way of doing things.

Thanks Owl. I take your word for the info. As I have said before I have found Don Schaffer to be more then happy to provide the public with info.

I did send you an email but found that it was returned this am. I have big fingers and accationally get them in the wrong place. I will check youe address and try again.

Cheers.