I find that it is disappointing that we are full steam ahead hiring more police and building a big permanent monument for them in the form of a shiny new police station costing probably $30 million by the time all is said and done. All that without any negotiations towards what our society will expect of them in the future.

If ever there was the need for a study commissioned I think this would be it, and I think this would be the time for it.

In light of the rash of RCMP homicides in the North and the obvious fact that we as a society have no way to police the police through independent investigations into their crimes... the first thing we need to ask is if it is time we negotiate their wants with our needs? Or do we just give them all their wants and continue to allow them no accountability in their actions?

In the East the RCMP is accountable so I do not think it is a stretch to have accountability enter into the negotiations.

Second thought is that it is time now to look into the feasibility of a local police force and the benefits that could arise as a result. Benefits such as police with a love of community and not doing required service in order to get transferred somewhere better. Not to mention anything of the potential cost saving having more police for the same cost.

The addition of 14 police officers for 1000 less people over the last few years is a operational cost of at least $2 million a year that could have gone to roads and prevented addition home taxes on fixed income home owners.

I would like to see the RCMP stay at their current location and scaled back at least 50% in staffing. Then they could replace the reduced staffing with a local police force for the North that shares training and recruitment with other communities in the North for a local blend of enforcement officers at a reduced cost located in smaller detachments. In PG these detachments would be in the Downtown (share detachment with RCMP), Hart (Hart mall), and College Heights (shared with fire hall).

I do not like that we have had no debate on this serious issue with implications for the next 50-60 years in this city. The capital investment we are being asked to make has a lot of negative long term externalities that should be looked at and adjudicated by society as a whole and not just a few easy way thinkers at city hall.

Time Will Tell

Need more police because there is more reports to write and court time.
In the old boom town days, if you got on the wrong side of the law you got a beating. No question.
Now the police can't touch you, or at least people think so. Some people are getting shot for their mistake, but now it is a real big deal.
Used to be the police were all big beefy boys, now the girls want to play and it takes twice as many to look after them and do the policing as well.
Society wants more than just policing, and it cost more money and people to do the same job.

Chadermando, what crimes are you referring to? Has an RCMP officer been charged with a homicide that we don't know about or is this just your interpretation of the reports in the local unbiased media?

YDPC, right on. I once lived in a large
camp on the west coast and remember an incident when two guys had a real bloody fist fight outside the main cafeteria. Somebody called the RCMP and they promptly arrived. They told everybody to step back and let the combatants fight it out.

The guys finally ran out of steam and one gave up. The RCMP officers stood both on their feet and told them to shake hands and promise to never make trouble again.

They shook hands because otherwise they would have been taken away and charged. Afterwards there never was trouble between the two again.

End of the story. No jail, no lawyers, no court.

I could not agree more with you Chadermando!!!

There is absolutely no PUBLIC accountability of this major expenditure by the City on our behalf.

There is much more information in that report than is brought forward.

First, for cities above 15,000 population, Ft. St. John also has a rate higher than PG. $213 per resident.

Much more telling, however, are the columns dealing with population per police (we are the second lowest at 638 people per officer with Langley City at 580 - Langley Township has 796). The average is 790 per officer with a high of 1019 in North Cowichan.

Then we have the column dealing with case burden. The low is 65 for North Van. The high is Ft. St. John with 156 with Courtenay right behind at 155. PG is at 11 with the average at 104. There are 12 municipalities which have case loads higher than ours.

Interestingly the load in Courtenay relates to a cost of $147 per citizen and that in Ft. St. John $213. The cost per member in Courtenay is $124,664 and Ft.St. John is $145,604. The number of officers is identical. The population of Courtenay is 15% higher than Ft. St. John.

There are 17 municipalities in this grouping whose cost per officer are higher than PG.

Then we get to cases. Of the 4 highest per capita costs, Ft.St.John has 0.227 cases per citizen, Port Alberni 0.209, PG 0.179 and Langley City 0.175.

The bottom line is, the City pays out over $15 million per year on police services. I see nothing from the point of view of evaluating the service we receive from that in a reasonably measurable way.

Why does Chilliwack with a population of only 4,000 less than us, with a case load of 0.174 per citizen (virtually the same as PG) have 91 authorized officers to our 121? We pay over $4million more for our force than Chilliwack.

Anyone want to pave roads without a 4% tax lift? That is an annual cost saving!

There might be a very legitimate reason, but we are not being told what that is. I think that it is the responsibility of those we elect to office to find out and let us know.

"Has an RCMP officer been charged with a homicide that we don't know about"

No. That is the problem though, isn't it?

There are questions which have not been answered. The inquest into the Vanderhoof case, for instance, has brought some more details to the surface which I believe has resulted in the Crown taking a different stand than prior to the inquest. I was under the impression that they had been adament that they would not be pressing charges and that as a result of the inquest they are reconsidering that position.

Is it too much to ask that an independent body look at any major injury caused to the public through the action of an officer? It appears that is not in place at this time.

If it is too much too ask, in your opinion, then how do you suggest that public accountability be handled so that a reasonable public feels comfortable with the system?

Hot off the press ... Review of the Police Complaint Process in British Columbia

http://www.pssg.gov.bc.ca/police_services/publications/complaint_process/Report_PoliceComplaintProcess.pdf

From the conclusions section:

"Acceptance of civilian oversight by the police is not something that can be legislated. But what can be
legislated is an entirely different model for processing complaints against the police, one that removes that process in its entirety from their control, placing the responsibility for investigation in the hands of a completely independent investigative force and the responsibility for adjudicating the results of those
investigations, and imposing discipline, in the hands of an independent civilian agency. While there is a strong argument to be made, that the processing of complaints against the police is an essential element of the entire discipline structure which is so essential to the day-to-day operation of an effective police
service, and that as such the complaint process should therefore remain the responsibility of police management, that argument can prevail only so long as there exists a demonstrated willingness on the
part of such management, and all who serve below, to fully accept the authority of civilian oversight."

MAYBE YOU GUYS SHOULD RUN FOR CITY COUNCIL OR GET ON VICTORIAS TEAM BECAUSE YOU SURE CAN SPREAD THE BS. HAVE YOU READ THE PAPER OR HEARD THE NEWS.
CAR THEFTS-ROBBERIES-BEATINGS-SHOPLIFTING-DOMESTIC DISPUTES-MURDERS-DRUGS ETC ETC ECT. I HAVE A POLICE MONITOR AND THOSE BOY AND GIRLS EARN THIER MONEY. CALLS BACK UP BECAUSE THERE ARE NOT ENOUGH CARS.ONE TRAFFIC CAR WILL COVER FROM BEAR LAKE TO HIXON. THE CITY NEVER SLEEPS.I WOULD NEVER WANT THAT JOB. WE ALL WANT THE POLICE BUT WE COULD DO BETTER. SURE THERE ARE SOME POOR JUDGEMENTS BUT THEY CANNOT SHOOT THEM---CANNOT NOT TAZER THEM--CANNOT HIT THEM WITH A BILLY CLUB-- CANNOT USE PEPPER SPRAY AND IS TWO OR MORE COPS TACKEL SOMEONE IT IS POLICE BRUTALITY.I THINK THEY DO A GREAT JOB ON THE WHOLE. I ALSO THINK THAT IF SOME OF YOU LOUD MOUTHS WERE TO BE ATTACHED YOU WOULD BE THE FIRST TO DAIL 911 AND HOPE THEY HAD THE PERSONPOWER TO RESPOND.AND REMEMEBER THEY COVER A LARGE AREA NOT JUST THE CITY, LOTS OF TIME IN COURT AND LIKE YOU AND ME THEY ALSO GET TIME OFF AND VACATIONS..

Grumpy. I can see why you picked that name.

Firstly the police we are talking about are the Prince George Detachment, and have nothing to do with the Police that look after Hixon or Bear Lake. Those police come under the Regional District, and Provincial Government and are entirely separate from the City Police. Their office is located in the Brand New Police Station at 5th and Ospika. (They used to be located above the post office on 5th)

No one disputes that Police Officers are busy, however on a per capita basis we have more police than other Cities of similiar size and the same or less crime. That means that all these other Citys are under staffed or we are over staffed when it comes to Police.

There has never been an instance in Canada that I am aware of where any individual was forced to become a Police Officer. These people apply for and receive these jobs the same way as a Railway Engineer, or a School Teacher gets their job. We pay them a salary (A good one I might add) to do a job. If they are not happy they can resign, the same as anyone else.

If there is a good reason why we should have more Police that other Citys with more crime and larger populations, then the City should be telling us why. If not then we should be looking at downsizing and using the money that is saved for other projects.

Grumpy. I can see why you picked that name.

Firstly the police we are talking about are the Prince George Detachment, and have nothing to do with the Police that look after Hixon or Bear Lake. Those police come under the Regional District, and Provincial Government and are entirely separate from the City Police. Their office is located in the Brand New Police Station at 5th and Ospika. (They used to be located above the post office on 5th)

No one disputes that Police Officers are busy, however on a per capita basis we have more police than other Cities of similiar size and the same or less crime. That means that all these other Citys are under staffed or we are over staffed when it comes to Police.

There has never been an instance in Canada that I am aware of where any individual was forced to become a Police Officer. These people apply for and receive these jobs the same way as a Railway Engineer, or a School Teacher gets their job. We pay them a salary (A good one I might add) to do a job. If they are not happy they can resign, the same as anyone else.

If there is a good reason why we should have more Police that other Citys with more crime and larger populations, then the City should be telling us why. If not then we should be looking at downsizing and using the money that is saved for other projects.

They are being paid a reasonable sum for a job they asked to do, however you feel about it. With that pay, comes reasonable expectations of how they will do that job, whatever they can and can't do. The job comes with a great deal of power and authority that the average person does not have, and that has to be managed responsibly too. What we have to do is stop relying on the police to solve our social problems. Their job is to uphold the law, and keep the peace. Investigate and report, not cure all of societal woes.

When was the last time you needed to solve a conflict by hitting someone with a stick, spraying them with chemical, or zapping them with electricity ?

Answer: You haven't ever, you needed to rely on your social skills. Don't you think it would just be much easier to pull a trigger or press a button to solve conflicts, than it would be to initiate dialogue ?

Would it be financially feasible for the city to start up its own police force? I can't answer that question although the infrastructure is there. However, would the price of aquiring all the necessary equipment and manpower be as cst effective as having the RCMP do the job? I know lots of seasoned members with 20+ yrs of service who would without hesitation jump at the chance to return or remain in prince george on a municipal force since they are fed up with RCMP bureaucracy.

As for statistics, they can be misleading. I know an officer who went to courtenay from prince george and to them, it was a cakewalk compared to PG. There are only 60 cops in courtenay and over 100 here. The courtenay area polices over 70,000 people in the comox valley but with only 60 officers its obvious why the case load is listed as it is. It would be cut in half if they had as many members there as there is in prince george.

And the violent crime here in PG is way higher than it is in courtenay. Police here are much more stressed as compared to courtenay. That's why so many of the younger police are wishing to leave...they are getting burnt out here. I'm not kidding...courtenay is the new lotus land for police and everyone would give their eye teeth to be posted in that area.

PG has a drinking problem and it is evident when the bars close. The police call it idiot hour. Traditionally, no police in pg can take a meal break during the hours between midnight and 3AM because that's when sh*t hits the fan. In courtenay Ive seen them all at the local boston pizza at 1AM chowing down and at 3AM theyre at the Timmy's next to their detachment. IN PG the boys grab a dinner or coffee when they can!

As for manpower going up to 128: Trust me, its only on PAPER. Ive heard it from the horse's mouth that the police are short 40 officers!! Due to stuff like being off on stress leave, and other types of medical stuff....transfers pending,,,etc... and they have tons of newbies coming in but until theyre trained and that could take a long time....they have to be paired up with a more experienced officer to be babysat.

SO what is the moral of the story: Don;t trust statistics.....sorry for going off on a tangent!

Imorg. Being on stress leave, transfers, training etc; would apply to all jurisdictions, not just to Prince George, so the bottom line is we have more Police per capita than most other areas of BC.

You can rest assured that areas like Ft St John, Williams Lake, Kelowna in the summer time, (and Winter) all experience the idiot hour, and that is part of the policing

My point is that when it comes to Taxes, and other services the City is quick to make comparisons to other Cities to show that we are better off, but when it comes to comparisons where we have more than other Cities, such as Police, or City Staff, then they remain silent of the subject.

Without civilian oversight of law enforcement it becomes possible for hidden government to use fear and violence on a population to influence democratic law making. Case in point is the anthrax attacks on the US Senators that questioned the 'Patriot Act' before it was passed in the days following 9/11. The anthrax was traced to an American WMD crime lab as its source, and then the trail went dry. Or so the FBI would have you believe.

-------------------------------------
Holt wants hearings on FBI anthrax investigation

AP

TRENTON --Rep. Rush Holt (D-Princeton) wants hearings into what he says is a lack of headway in the FBI's investigation into the deadly anthrax attacks of 2001.

"It seems to me this investigation is not making progress. I can't say for sure. They won't brief me," Holt told The Times of Trenton for Saturday newspapers.

"Not briefing Congress on the status of the probe into the biggest biological attack in United States history is inexcusable," he said.

The anthrax attacks through the postal system killed five people across the country and sickened 17 in the weeks after Sept. 11, 2001. Investigators have not determined who was responsible for the attacks.

Over the years, Holt has been a vocal critic of the bureau's handling of the case, especially because anthrax contamination was found in mail facilities in and near Holt's district.

Holt on Friday called on four committee chairmen and one subcommittee chairman in the House to hold oversight hearings into the investigation. His request may carry more weight now that his party is in the majority in Congress.

Several earlier attempts to receive information failed. In September and October 2006, Holt formally requesting that the FBI brief Congress on the investigation. He was denied.

In December, a bipartisan group of 32 House and Senate members called on Attorney General Alberto R. Gonzales to direct that the FBI brief Congress on the investigation. That request was also denied.

Richard J. Kolko, a bureau spokesman, defended the handling of the anthrax probe, saying it is "one of the largest and most complex" ever conducted. He said the investigation is still a high priority.

" .... and they have tons of newbies coming in but until theyre trained and that could take a long time"

That may very well be part of the problem. PG is part of a large network of places to work for what is essentially a single force. Officers have the right to ask for transfers, and they do. There are no guarantees for anyone.

So, while the work may appear to be similar in different detachments, the nuances of working with new people, under the supervison of a new person with their own special traits, in a new community with all the unique features that may come with it, are enough to make each location a new place of work with a learnign curve attached before one becomes profficient.

A police force which is truly local - the PGP - would likely be more efficient from that point of view. If you want to increase staff by 4 you will likely be able to do it much more quickly rather than sending an order in to Ottawa or Regina for new recruits and not getting it since the whole RCMP is having problems getting recruits. That may be true for other police forces as well, but at least we would have better control and could take some different actions to resolve the issue.

Palopu: I was comparing PG to Courtenay. I know the other cities you mentioned most likely have their times. In the study Courtenay was listed as one of the highest case loads per member in BC.....with PG being lower in the stats...but I can tell you it is far busier in PG.

And, the other things about 128 members "on paper" is true.

Wow look at all the emotions. Such a touchy subject. All I care about is having our money go towards good policing and punish the police that do a crime. (Don't be that ignorant and ignore that it doesnt happen) Reward the honorable ones. Get rid of the ones that depend more on their trigger finger than their brains. Make way for the best of the best only just like any job. I'll never ignore.
www.myspace.com/heidisstory

Wow is right! A lot of emotions and how the heck did anthrax get in there? I dont think there can be any downside to having more police. Have you need ed them recently? Have you talked to any of them recently? I have on both counts. These guys are trying to do their jobs. To paint them as homocidal puppets of secret govt is paranoid, scandalous rubbish! If you think these people went into police work expecting the treatment they often receive i think you are expecting alot more from them than perhaps you do from the public at large. They are NOT paid sufficiently well for the job they do when you compare it to the myriad of professions which pay more and which do not involve: danger to life and limb, the responsibility for the safety of the public, being spat on, insulted and accused of pretty much everything under the sun, being blamed for high crime, lax enforcement, over enforcement and the general lack of kid glove polite attention to the feelings and rights of all the drunks, druggies, wife beaters, thieves and killers that make their job so damn easy. I dont think there is any place for talk about trigger happy cops when, currrent cases not withstanding the local detachment has a pretty damn good record.
I think we should all take a step back and look at the original question. Is 200 bucks too much to pay for the guys that keep you safe? I dont think so. In fact, leave off twinning the damn bridges and crying about a few holes in the road and hire some more. Maybe with added cops on the street we really could rebuild the downtown core.

"I think we should all take a step back and look at the original question. Is 200 bucks too much to pay for the guys that keep you safe?" from caranmacil. Glad you noticed my trigger happy comment by the way :) Darn rights 200 bucks is too much for the ones that DON'T keep us safe and to the others it's not enough. Can't have a good recipe if you only have a few good ingredients to throw in the bowl. My point was to get rid of the ones that can't do the job and pay the ones that can as much as needed. Don't we all deserve that???

"To paint them as homocidal (sic) puppets of secret govt is paranoid, scandalous rubbish!"

Caranmacil, nobody has suggested that the RCMP are homocidal or homicidal as far as I can see. There is a lot of concern over two specific incidents in which young men were killed by RCMP officers. Those killings are fact, not paranoia and certainly not rubbish.

Whether they were scandalous is the very point that most of us are concerned about. That issue needs to be determined by some kind of independent inquiry, and I mean independent of both the RCMP and any level of government.

On those rare occasions when lives are taken by police there MUST be genuine accountability, and the general public must, at the end of the day, be assured that it was inevitable. In neither the St. Arnault case nor the Bush case are we at that stage yet. Until we are, this issue will not go away.

Bless your heart ammonra. :)

I agree that the Police have a diry job, and I certainly wouldnt want it, and that is why I am not a Police Officer. However those people who took the job must have known what it entailed, and if they didnt when they first applied, then they certainly would have been brought up to speed during their basic training. They made the decision to take the job, and they can live with their decision or quit, it not up to the general public to hire more police than necessary to do a job.

All of their work is not **dirty** some work in offices all day, some on traffic patrol, some worked for the past 10 or more years in community policing, etc; The City gets approx $980,000.00 in fines each year from tickets written from the RCMP so we can safely assume that some spend a lot of time running their radar traps.

There are more people killed in the bush, through logging accidents etc;, than there ever would be working as a policeman, so when it comes to endangering your life, loggers, fireman, fisherman,miners, etc etc are at much more risk than Police.

My point in all of this is that we need to understand how much policing is necessary for a City of 77000 people, when the average age is 39 years old. A large percentage are children under the age of 15, a large percentage are people over the age of 15 who are law abiding citizens. These people do not require any policing, so in effect it is a very small percentage of the overall population that is costing us Millions of dollars in policing, and this is what we have to get a handle on.

If putting them in jail is not the answer then what is???