Gee what a surprise! I would have thought that they would have seen the err of their ways and stayed out of trouble until their court date. But I guess they have not had the opportunity to become rehabilitated by our fine prison system. Probably won't even have to go to jail anyway, just a fine, after all their crime is 'only' spreading misery, breaking up families, indirectly causing a high rate of b & e thefts, and beating up and maiming other human beings, it's not like they are'nt providing a service, right? These people should be dealt with HARSHLY, just the way they deal with people who cross them. They are crossing us, and the law, with their illegal trade and misery. I know! let's do this: when a pusher is caught, lets get them hooked on their own product, show them a good time for a couple of weeks, don't let them sleep, keep them high, and don't feed them. Then, lock them in an unheated outhouse for three weeks, no food, only water. No lights, no blanket, no human interaction. If we keep hammering away at the middle man ie the pushers, the kingpins would have no one to spread their filth, then maybe we could give them the same treatment as their underlings. Sometimes I amaze myself at the amount of hate I have for the perpetrators of the filth and misery that some have the gall to call 'recreational drugs' Do they have their heads up there where there is no sunshine? Or are they simply naive? (stupid) Even marijuana is no longer a relatively harmless intoxicant, and it carries with it the taint of organized crime, the so called "bikers" a.k.a. 'Purveyors of misery' Once a year toy runs do not mask what these people really are; CRIMINALS who are above the puny laws we have to protect our children against their greed.
Sorry, this topic really gets me going.
metalman.

"The two occupants were released for a court date next month."

By whom? Again? What kind of spineless legal *specialists* are in charge of making such idiotic decisions?

It just goes to show that common sense is not a very common commodity - a few *deciders* seem to be unable to wrap their brains around even a small serving of it.

Lock them up for a few weeks at least until the court date comes around. Or are the authorities afraid that these habitual law breakers would pass on their considerable expertise to the other *innocent* inmates?

In Saudi Arabia drug dealers have their heads removed by the blade of a curved sword.

I VOTE "METALMAN' FOR THE NEXT POLICE CHIEF.

BEN... PLEASE FOLLOW THIS STORY AND TELL US WHO THE JUDGE IS, SO WE CAN KEEP TRACK OF WHO ARE ENEMIES REALLY ARE.

I have been saying the same statements as metalman.
I hear repeatedly there is a growing drug problem in Prince George, and the law appears to have no control, as the pushers and users are never contained, but back they go to sell that much more to recover their losses due to seizures of their profits. If they do go to court they will be represented by lawyers paid from the public purse, so we, the taxpayers, are on the hook for their defense.
They appear to be basically untouchable.
The misery a user bestows on his or her family is absolutely horrifying, and a user is so self absorbed they do not care.
In my opinion, there is no such thing as a "recreational" drug.
Only by strong law enforcement can there be a solution to this growing problem.
Why are they immediately released to carry on destroying users and families?
The present judicial system is failing us all.

MIGHT HELP IF JUDGES WERE ELECTED AND HELD ACCOUNTABLE. WISHFULL THINKING.

I'm thinking of applying for the full time job at the courthouse which involves keeping the revolving door on the front well oiled. Cheaper than jail, eh?

Some very thoughtful and very emotional posts here, for sure today. A nice change to hear some really well thought-out analyses, raher than shots from the lip. Nice work you guys, a great read.

I don't know exactly what the "right" approach to hard drugs should be, but you have definitely made some very good points and backed them up well.

I think, for one thing, that you need to keep separate; hard drugs from soft drugs. You are dealing with different sets of social issues along with different sets of solutions required, if at all.

Secondly, I think that we don't get to choose how everybody lives their lives, or judge how they choose to live them. We don't get to make one lifestyle choice illegal as opposed to the other, that's the church that does that.

The state only makes laws to protect people from accidental and undue harmto themselves and/or others. The act of using and selling are separate and distinct from each other socially and in law, and for different reasons. They are separate acts, and separate circumstances. You can't lump them together any more than you can hard and soft drugs.

I'm not guessing. Remember that we don't arrest adults (not talking for kids) for indulging (or overindulging) in: alcohol, gambling, sex, eating food, prescription medications (soft or hard), using tobacco products, and a whole whack of other things that may or not be harmful in small or large amounts. None of these are illegal, some of them regulated. Some people's individual choices, however, are "none of these", and also illegal, but are not necessarily needed to be. So there are moral arguments galore, about one bad habit vs. another.

So why don't we come up with new and more interesting solutions ?
Remember, we're not running around in horse and buggy anymore. What was a good solution at one time, has to continue to evolve. I think we need a new way of defining what type of solution we need, based on defining what kind of a problem have we really got ? What's the key issue, really ?

I think to myself, "What {did we/do we} really intend to accomplish with these laws and systems?
Let's do what accomplishes that.

I think what we really intended to do, was accomplish the following tasks:

1). Prevent from being available to people, things that we readily accept as being seriously harmful to them either physiologically and/or socially. Everything else becomes a personal choice afforded to educated/informed adults (opposed to minors).
Remember we are trying to "steer people from danger" not steer their whole life for them. Not everybody has the same life experiences nor lifestyle preferences. All we are trying to do is prevent them from being exposed to extreme harm.

2). How do we regulate the rest, (if and where necessary or as necessary) so as to impede, or make difficult, it's ability to become a serious risk of harm, whatever the choice of habit, indulgence, or overindulgence ? How do we just try to keep everybody and everything well and good, while allowing them the freedom to make their own choices and be themselves, without a seriously significant risk to their immediate lives, or their immediate health and safety ?

I think we need to find new solutions based on the thoughts and ideas, produced by that line of thinking. That's my thoughts.

The reasonable man makes the best case for his opinion in my opinion. Excellent post.

From my perspective hard drugs include things like ecstasy, cocaine, heroin, lsd, and anti-depressant over the counter drugs. Clearly treatment should be the first option with removal from society at large the next option.

I do not however consider marijuana a harmful drug to person, or by extension to society, and I hate it when people with no knowledge make the assumption that their opinion should control someone elses life in this regard. I believe in the facts.

What I do not understand is how society has evolved to consider sodomy by an adult on a junior is now legal to the point where society will sanction their union by calling it a marriage (blasphemy). Clearly the pursuit and act of sodomy is abuse of the highest form, and yet a person that smokes a joint before bed time to relax their worries and open their minds is considered a heinous criminal to society, while at the same time the sodomist is considered an enlightened person of the new age.

I blame media perceptions created for the anti-society twist that turned the tables on what was acceptable to society for thousands of years in all societies prior to this century. Obviously cotton is more profitable to influential law makers, and a break down of the family unit is advantageous to a new world order that would like everyone to be a dependent of the state and not their family. The perception is created and righteous fools do the dirty work with mindless dogma.

I agree when it comes to crack dealers.

Revolving door justice is a joke.It is done to save the system money because it cost's big money to keep people in jail.Once again it is all about politics and the bottom line.Judges are in fact politicians to a degree, even though we are told they are above all that.They are not.
Unfortunately the criminals understand how it all works as well.Very well.
I have no problem with giving people a second chance.One chance only...one time only, providing you have shown you really want to change your ways.But screw up again and you get the full extent of the law.As hard as we can make it.Criminals are capable of understanding that as well.
And I don't give a rat's butt what kind of broken home you came from.(lots of us did)You still understand right from wrong.
Dope is the worst type of crime.Dope dealers and maufacturers are nothing more than accessories to murder and they should be treated as such.
The people who insist we need more programs to help these people need to get a life.These programs are failure when you consider how many actually clean up their lives.(in my opinion)And they also cost lots of money.
Maybe it's better we spend that money on building more jails because the system is failing badly.Tougher penalties are the only real deterent that has a hope of working, and I for one have had enough of this put them back on the street crap!If it takes elected judges to change the system,let's go for it.

When people keep on breaking the law with similar type offences, then they are, legally speaking: continuing the offence. They should be held in custody for court as public interest is not satisfied. That is, unless crown counsel is telling the police to release them for a future appearance.
The criminal justice system is not a system at all...none of the parts are working well together.

Letting the alleged criminal go free after setting a court date keeps the judge comfortable as in "job security". Who ever heard of a judge being laid off cause the crime rate went down. Silly geese!! Nuthin will change, betcha!

I think the reasonableman is a judge. There is no other reason to applaud a judicial system that is totally out of control and cannot see the forest for the trees. As a citizen,you no longer have the right to protect yourself or your property. I see no reason to admire a law like that. Our charter of rights and freedoms begins outright with protection for criminals.

What a complete waste of time money busting these people and forcing them thru the court system!

The cops time is better spent standing at a 4 way stop (in pairs of course) handing out $130.00 seatbelt fines in 50 km speed zones. At least most of the general public pays their fines and carries on their lives, thus not straining the courts and yet generating the funds to support the RCMP salaries.

just more bs.

I have read the comments by the reasonable man and chadermando, both are thoughtfully composed, however, I find that I must take issue with at least parts of their comments, as they are similar to others I have heard. "separate hard drugs from soft drugs, different issues" "not harmful to society"
Okay, I think I know what you are getting at here. Pot is a soft drug, so is hash. Both are relatively harmless in themselves to society, right? But who controls the "soft drug" trade in British Columbia? Right, the "biker gangs" Who controls the "hard drug" trade? Gee whiz, it is the same thugs that are distributing the so called harmless drugs. That is, organized crime.
SO, to treat pot as a separate social issue does not make any sense to me. The substance itself MAY be less harmful, but the same criminal organizations are distributing and profiting from it, and people are still getting hurt, laws are being broken. I have been of the belief for decades that pot should be de-criminalized, in fact regulated, and put on par with alcohol, complete with all the same restrictions.
The real, and growing, problem is with crack, crystal meth, ecstasy. The filth of society are hooking our kids into this junk at younger ages than ever before. When people talk about not regulating the lifestyle choices of others, I get angry. They are only thinking about themselves, and others who are presumably mature and intelligent enough to know right from wrong, harmless from harmful. How much life experience does a twelve year old have, in order to make informed decisions on whether or not to ingest a toxic substance? What good is all the 'reasonable discussion' and free choice when these kids are wrecking their future, and ruining other peoples lives at the same time. Look at the theft rates around this town, don't you think that letting people have free choice about doing drugs is having an impact on all of us? Even before this drug problem (crack)took down someone close to me I felt this way, had these opinions. I knew about the problems, now that I have seen the other side, I am even more dismayed at how little power the cops on the street have to fight this crime, it has made me bitter, and angry. My comments are in no way meant to seek sympathy for myself, rather to illustrate that I know something of the problem. The thing is, this is affecting so many people, at so many levels, that I sincerely believe it is undermining our society. The police have more time and authority to keep the rest of us in line, than they have to combat a problem that is affecting the future of many. NOTE to POLITICIANS: ask youselves who will be paying the taxes that keep the police force, and keep you well fed and your gold plated pension plan topped up, if half of your citizens are hooked on drugs? Thus far, what have we done about
it? Like the pine beetles, a few were sounding the alarm long before it was too late to curb the resulting problem, there were some who saw this drug epidemic coming, and tried to warn us. I too am guilty of ignoring the problem, until it began to affect me and mine then I was jerked into reality. I do not pretend to know the solution, but it seems obvious that our laws have to get tougher.
metalman.

I too think "thereasonableman" is perhaps a judge.Either that or he has never been a victim of some of these losers the court system seems to push through the system, only to see them back in short order.
He shows a lot of forethought and wisdom and I respect his opinion.Unfortunately,we should be starting to see that it is all great in theroy, but unworkable in real life.
The missing ingredients here are human nature and greed.Greed understands nothing of compassion and a desire to help ones fellow man.Greed is a part of human nature and it always will be.Anything that can be viewed as profitable will be vulnerable to greed.Always has been,always will be.And human nature is driven by the desire for money and power.So why don't we just accept that and deal with repeat offenders harshly? Perhaps the ones who we can actually help are so few that it is just not worth the trouble? Maybe we need to be more selective as to who we help?
I for one am fed up with new and more interesting solutions that continue to fail.I haven't always felt that way,but I do now.The failure of the court system and our judicial gaurdians of law have done that to me and many others.Let's try a little real old fashioned justice for change!We may be suprised at the results.IMO.

Andyfreeze says we need a little more justice. Hmmmm? That would involve finding a few of them "hangin'judges". They are as extinct as the dodo bird. A guy like Saddam wouldn't have tolerated this crime crap. Now would he?

Put me in charge and there would be no hard drug problem in PG within 6-months. The problem is not people who smoke pot, but rather the low lifes that use children to make their profits from hard drugs. Nab those people and you nip the whole industry in the bud so to speak.

When I was in high school I was aware of people that did running for the big boys. They would go to the local high schools and recruit youth to make runs to Vancouver for them (a cops son that I knew was one such character). Supply them with guns and give them a $1000 bucks per trip. For a 17 year old kid this is a lot of money and makes them feel powerful. The money they make brings others into the gig. The guys that control this never actually touch the drugs themselves, just collect the funds and direct the funds through their many juniors that get sold on the lifestyle.

If the police would arrest 5-8 people in this town there would be no hard drug problem. Finding out who those people are should not be very hard if you arrest a couple of the youth runners (usually middle class wanna –be’s) and make them turn. I knew of one guy who made 3-4 trips a week to Vancouver. No matter what I said, I could not get him to realize the harm he was doing to others, because a kid just likes to make money and doesn't care about others. I stopped talking to him when he wouldn’t listen to my advice. I would say that almost every night one of these runners is on our highways. A road check near Cash Creek looking for lone youth in the middle of the night with a $100,000 in cash for a check-up would probably go a long way to stopping the trade. Better yet following them to Vancouver and getting the top guys down there could also end it very quick if done properly.

A common misperception is that the guys running dope are the same ones running the hard drugs. This is not the case. Sure the guys running the hard drugs will dabble in the weed, but not anyone of significance. Why risk a hard drug operation on a low profit high risk marijuana operation? The guys running hard drugs are going to stick to what they do best and limit their exposure due to the harsher penalties. The guys running marijuana are going to stick to that so as to limit their risk of being associated with the higher penalty hard drug charges, while making money off volume in a lesser crime.

This is why you have two affiliates in PG; the Renegades, which deal solely with the marijuana, and the Crew who deal solely with the hard drugs. Both are affiliated with the Hells Angles. My old neighbour was a Renegade and they are the only people that polices (violence wise) the Crew, but do not like to be associated with the Crews drug dealing activities, leaving that to the Hells Angeles down south. Historically our police have focused on the Renegades who control the commercial grow ops in this region, while giving the Crew a free ride. This priority is the wrong approach as it weakens the only controls in place for the Crew and strengthens the Crews position in our city. I have never yet heard of a single high profile arrest in this city dealing with the hard drug element at its core.

The focus should be on taking down the Crew and their ring leaders if we are to ever win this war on the hard drugs in our society. If we can rid our region of the Crew and regulate marijuana, than we would have no profit incentive for organized crime and probably save a lot of lives while making our society a better and more just place for all.

Time Will Tell

I've been told that my rights end when they begin to over ride the rights of others. So, who is going to enforce this?

Thieves walk into my back yard and steal my bikes, my lawnmower, my tools etc. and walk away with them. The only purpose of this is to sell the items and buy drugs with the money. I have no basis for a claim, as my deductible is $1,000. So, I continue to eat my losses.

The pawn shops and whoever it is that buys all of the stolen property are just as guilty and responsible for the thefts as the thief. If the thief can't dispose of his bounty, he will stop stealing and find another way to get his money.

Has anyone thought of raiding all of the pawn shops in town? They must be absolutely full of stolen property. I believe they only contribute to an illegal economy in our city. It's not the solution, but it's a start. Chester