Is the city looking to spend $5 million on an ice oval before investing in a performing arts centre downtown?

When did that become a capital spending priority over an arts centre and downtown revitalization?

We don't need to attract tourists nearly as much as we need to recruit and retain skilled and talented people that drive the new conceptual economy (Read Richard Florida's Rise of the Creative Class and A Whole New Mind by Daniel Pink).

A vibrant downtown and first-class arts, entertainment and cultural facilities will do more to support and grow our economy than another sports facility.

Shawn Petriw

Sorry Shawn, I disagree. I know you are a huge advocate of a performing arts centre, but unfortunately, you should cater to the majority of the population. The art gallery is a prime example of what happens when you cater to the minority.

I'm not too sure if I buy into the argument that we will attract a certain type (more educated?) of person to the city with facilities like a performing arts centre. People will come based on the opportunity afforded to them, not whether we have a performing arts centre.

That being said, I don't support this particular initiative (how many people would use an expensive ice oval?).

I think if anything, we need more ice rinks and possibly an indoor soccer facility before an ice oval.

Mr PG.,

I’m afraid you have it backwards.

Businesses will move to Prince George because of the people here, not like the old days when people moved to a city because the business or job was there. Job one for us should be to become a city people prefer to live in vs. our competition such as Nanaimo, Kelowna, Kamloops, etc.

A perfect example of this new economic development reality is the news today that Doepker Industries chose to locate in Salmon Arm instead of Prince George. Why? Access to the skilled people they needed.

The economy today is increasingly run by skilled, highly trained, talented people, and this is especially true in the forestry, construction, oil and gas and mining sectors. While these industries will continue to be the economic base of our economy, the type of people needed to make those industries work is changing rapidly. And those people are in demand and can choose to live anywhere. Why should they live in Prince George? We need to have a good answer for them that addresses the needs of their soul as well as their wallet.

Businesses will locate to areas where the fundamental ingredient to thier success is located. Today that ingredient is skilled, talented, creative people and a community that supports and values increasing conceptual output.

To answer your question, yes, we do need to be attractive to a new class of people because that is what our economy is dependent on. The economic development and employment issue today is not quantitative, it’s qualitative. After you’ve read Florida and Pink, go ahead and read Alvin Toffler’s Power Shift. The future he was talking about in 1990 is happening now.

Shawn Petriw

This issue is not about revitalization of the downtown, it is about getting a piece of the Olympic pie while we can.

Shawn, I respect your position, but I still disagree. A performing arts centre will not appeal to the vast majority of this town... I'm not sure an ice oval will either (especially after the olympics have come and gone).

Maybe in Victoria you would have support, but here in good ol' PG, people come here (mostly) because there are good recreational opportunities, not because there is or isn't a performing arts centre.

I came to Prince George over 30 years ago from urban Ontario. I was an avid skier and when my first friend here showed me Tabor Mt. Ski area, it very much reminded me of the size of hills north of Toronto. He was all enthusiastic about the ski season coming up. Even though the weather was cold enough fro snow by the end of October, I did not get to go skiing till after the New Year since there was not enough precipitation and the weather got warmer around Xmas as it so often does here.

I could not for the life of me understand why there was no snow making equipment in place. I still cannot fathom how a place like that goes from one down year to another, from one owner to the other trying to make a bit of a living from a passion, without snow making equipment. Surely that is a no brainer. We have the cold nights to make snow by November and the season would last through to April with ease, no matter how often it rains or how dry the season. On top of that, the city taxpayers would not be on the hook since there were always plenty of people willing to pay the price to ski or now snowboard.

Here we are, putting over $30,000 into a feasibility study for building the second artificial outdoor ice arena in Canada in PG for even less people that are interested in skiing/snowboarding in this town. And the facility is supposed to cost $5 million.

There is a reason why there is only one such oval in Canada. And we have to pay our taxpayers money to find out what that reason is. Is there any wonder this community is ill managed when we keep on seeing such utter stupidity?

Here is the schedule for international competition:

http://www.isu.org/vsite/vcontent/page/custom/0,8510,4844-130788-132096-31712-131800-custom-item,00.html

So we get an oval and we get on the circuit – one event a year at best. Notice that one event is held in Sainte-Foy, and one in Ottawa. Ottawa has a natural oval, not artificial. I know, I know…. we have the oil and gas and forests and Ottawa does not. Even Davos Switzerland (and you can bet they have tons of money there for those of you who have ever been there) has a natural oval. And notice that Portland Ontario, a summer community the size of Vanderhoof at best, which services the cottage community along the Rideau lakes, is on the circuit. They use the lake. What is wrong with Tabor Lake? I know, the same thing as with Tabor Mountain.

I guess what I am saying is that it does not take a $5 million facility to put on an international speed skating competition. It takes a zamboni, some work to lay out and maintain a proper track, some timing equipment, temporary stands, or permanent stands which can be used for summer events as well, and some praying to the weather god.

Of the 92 events, 14 are in North America – 11 in Canada and 3 in the USA. The rest are in Europe. Of the 11 in Canada, 8 are in Calgary. Calgary is known as one of the best ovals in the world and this shows it. The others in Canada are in Ottawa and Portland, both outdoor ovals, and of course Sainte-Foy with the artificial outdoor rink.

So, we get PG on the map and get one event a year and a few local circuit type events. How long to make back the capital investment plus the maintenance and operating cost of the oval???? 20 years???? … Never?????

I back Sean up with the notion that a performing arts centre would be a better investment in this community. I bet you that the number of locations where the events are being held which do not have a quality performing arts centre available within a one hour drive can be counted on the fingers of one hand. In fact, I would be surprised if there were more than 2 or 3.

Saskatoon:
http://www.city.saskatoon.sk.ca/org/leisure/facilities/oval.asp

Portland:
http://www.portlandoutdoors.com/speedskating

Ottawa:
http://www.ottawapacers.ca/Oval/Oval%20Info.html

North American outdoor ice skating facilities list
http://members.valley.net/~ice/namsa/pistes

World ovals list:
http://home.quicknet.nl/qn/prive/cvanstaaveren/schaatsen/links/OVALS.htm

I agree, it is not about revitalizing downtown, it is about making this a well rounded community to allow for the diversificaion of industry ....

BTW, the so called Olympic pie very much includes culture .... having an olympic event in a country and region highlights the history, culture and geography to the tourists of the world as they tune in their TVs .....

Here I am, giving my head a shake again!!!!
We get beat out by a city of 8000 for the Railway tours stop over.
Now we get beat out by a city of 15,000, (many retirees), and we probably number just in excess of 70,000, (not an overly abundant of retirees), due to the fact we cannot provide the skilled labor required for a manufacturing plant, and Salmon Arm can???????
I say, "There is more to all this than meets the eye." We appear to be side stepped repeatedly, and our reputation must precede us as being a city not really open for business.
There has to be a valid reason. Anybody out there know what it is?
Just curious!!!!

Owl, your usual long winded post fails to justify why you feel a performing arts centre would be better for this community.

The lack of attendance at the Art Gallery should be a big hint that this town wouldn't adequately support a performing arts centre, and you and I would be footing the bill every year to keep it in the black, just like the Art Gallery, the Orchestra, etc.

Sorry, I already pay enough taxes.

I'll try ....

there were two other reasons given for not choosing Prince George .... proximity to market and building or facility ready to go.

as with many businesses, it is location, location, location .... and in spite of hearing that umteen times, people still do not seem to get it.

Everyone knows labour is relocatable and can be accomplished with a 2 to 3 month lead time .... a building could take as long as 3 to 9 months, including any manufacturing equipment required .... location is fixed for a long time, with slow movement of accssibility if you need air transport ... which this place would not be that dependent on other than parts posssibly..

Salmon Arm is on the Trans Canada and has a railway line .. all they need .... Salmon Arm has low industrial site costs - this City has always been one of the highest in the Country and probably still is. ...

One more thing I am wondering about .. these are welders and metal fabricators ... that is a trade, this is still a union town, and I am wondering whether that was a factor ..... cost of moving labour in is cheap compared to having to pay higher unit rates over the life of a company .....

Anyway, the accolades given to Innitiative PG are not uncommon for a company who was helped along to get information, and can be used by OPG as a smokescreen to the real problem rather than putting the problem at the feet of the training system ....

That being said, people have been talking about skill shortages coming for at least a decade if not longer ... well, like the end of natural oil deposits, the time is nearing and the first place it is going to be felt is not in Metro Canada, but in small comunities such as PG ..... and that is something I have not heard anyone mention yet at all ......

My posts may be long winded Mr PG .... but they are full of material to back up a position ... you simply provide an opinion without upport ....

anyone can do that ...

You are just one individual, just as I am just one individual .... I for one am willing to pay 20% more taxes every year if it were spent on bringing the facilities in this community up to the next level, that of a real city rather than a one industry dirty mill town .....

the community is made up of many people like you and I ..... and some in between .... and we all have an equal right to be accommodated ....

A performing Arts centre does not mean an Orchestra automatically .... a centre such as that goes way beyond, and the orchestra may very well fold because the centre would make more money from road shows .....

So, this notion that a place with retirees has no money .... why does Vernon have a centre? .. Nanaimo ???? Kamloops ???? Kelowna ???? all places which are have a much higher proportion of retirees than we do .... we have the higherst per person income of them all .... and we spend our money where??????

Certainly not the soccer fields, tennis courts, walkways, ice arenas, library ,etc. etc .... because most of those are free and those that are not are heavily subsidized .....

And not in resturants since they are hurting .... and not in stores, since we have fewer square feet of retail per person than any of those I named ....

so what is it ??? crack? ... Alberta??? ... Palm Springs ??? .... motor homes ????? ...

Where does Prince George spend its money compared to those in other places Has anyone ever asked the most basic of questions forthose who might want to provide what it is people want and are spending their money for in other places??? .....

If anyone knows, I would sure like to have the answer .....

Well owl, I wish I had as much time to type in longwinded responses and cruise the 'net as much as you apparently do... but it doesn't make me any less entitled to my opinion as to where tax dollars should be spent.

You are correct, we are two individuals with differing opinions, and my opinion is just as valid as yours.

some people are good at welding, others at research and typing ....

experience is the key to effciency ...

Mr. PG,

If we want to grow our population from 75,000 to 100,000, we must also appeal to those who do NOT live here.

And as far as appleaing to those who do live here, a performing arts centre does. Look at the subscription base for Theatre North West (2x Cougars). Look at the popularity of musical theatre productions despite flawed venues. What about the opportunity for more (smaller) musical acts in a better environment than the cavernous and accousticly dead CN Centre?

Shawn Petriw

Shawn, don't get me wrong, I'm behind a performing arts centre IF it can support itself and doesn't become another yearly taxpayer handout. I have my doubts about this.

Besides, it takes more than these kinds of facilites to attract people. They won't move here unless they have a job to move to.

Chicken or egg situation ...

forestry jobs got PG to where it is .... forestry jobs have declined with automation and will continue to do so as with all manufacturing jobs ....

this is not much different with the switch from an agriculture based economy to an industrial based economy ....

I realize many people still wonder where the heck will the "wealth" come from ....

Answer .. from the same sources as before but much more efficiently ....

so what are the work intensive "industries" now??? ... look around at large urban areas and yu will see them .... a single word covers them all ... service .... but actually much more complex than such a simple word ...

So, create those opportunities which will crete those kind of jobs ...

BTW. I am not too sure how many want to become a city of 100,000 .. 150,000 .. 250,000 ...then again, it may just happen, it is just a matter of time ...

Local jobs ....

We don't have welders and steel fabricators here so the sotry is that we lost a new plant as a result ...

TNW has imported a set and costume designer for Ontario to work for them for two or three shows ...

so, we have no welders and no set designers ...

what else do we not have???

I know, people who can do studies to line city hall office shelves ...

we have the jobs, but we are exporting them ....

What is a mobile home plant-or should it have been called a manufactured home plant. Either way-the skilled trade is not all welders and fabricators. Very little actually. The skilled tradespeople would be carpenters, roofers, floor and carpet layers, drywallers, painters, craftsman for cupboards, plumbers, etc etc. The same tradespeople as required for an on site stick built home under construction.
So-here we have a city of, let's say, 70,000 to 75,000 people. Cannot draw enough tradespeople off this type of population for a plant. Then we have Salmon Arm, a city of 15,000, of which many are retirees.
Now this company is moving to the 15,000 population to establish the plant, and citing the city of 70,000 plus cannot provide adequate workers.I presume they are under the impression Salmon Arm can!! Make sense????
Does this ring true????
Could it possibly be Prince George has a reputation of not being open for business???
Do all the vacant buildings make an impression on newcomers????
Just what are we lacking???
I am tired of the comparisons to the Okanagan and Kamloops, or Nanaimo. Look at those areas realistically, and in no way do we even come close to measuring up.
Those areas have far more to offer than this city, as the people thinking our visitors will be impressed with our art gallery and museum are just busy fooling themselves.
Get them to float down the Nechako-thatll be enough excitement for them. Slap some mosquitos, wave away the hornets and wasps, and they will be only too happy to wave Good bye to Prince George.
Do not talk shopping to me. Tourists are not arriving here to buy the latest fashions for their offspring to return to school.
We have in this city what the residents require, no more and no less.
And we do not need to spend 5 million on an ice oval.
Let City Hall pay the bills they have run up, and leave it at that for awhile. One would think they had buckets of money-but it is OUR money, and we have only so much to give.
Stop all these damn studies-as we are in no position to go anywhere when the study is received-it will just have to be paid for and shelved with a pile of previous studies that went nowhere.
I do not know what the answer is-but somewhere, somehow, this Mayor and Council have to be held accountable for the dismal situation this city is in at this time.
The parks looked pretty darn good this year, and the cemetary has improved.
Some of those workers are doing a good job.
Always nice to at least have one plus!!!!

Gypsy ... the company manufactures transport trailers, not moble home trailers ... it is a welding and metal fabrication intensive operation ...

http://www.salmonarmedc.com/default-e.html

"Doepker's President, Gurcan Kocdag, stated that there are four key reasons for choosing Salmon Arm as an expansion location: the proximity to the markets, the cost of business operations, the infrastructure, and the access to an existing/ skilled labour force."

Notice that location is first on the list and skilled labour is last ....

I think we are getting a spin on the story here ...

Here is the comparative cost of industrial land in the Shuswap ...

http://www.salmonarmedc.com/pdf/5.pdf

If Initiatives PG says it was lost due to lack of skilled labour, then they should rethink the intor page on their site ...

look at the #1 reason for making PG a prime location .....

ever hear of false advertising?????

http://www.initiativespg.com/ipg/business/

find am industrial manufacturing property for sale in PG .. then salmon arm

http://english.icx.ca/map.aspx

enter industrial property plus manufacturing on the lower left, plus community ....

I find none in PG .. and one in Salmon Arm ...

then try kamloops ...

Sorry all. Heard Skakum on T V and he said manufacture mobile trailers, so assumed a plant for either mobile travel trailers or mobile home units.
My mistake.
My only consolation is it is not the first-nor will it probably be the last. ho hum!!!!

IMO, that Jerry Offett at initiatives P.G. couldn't catch us a cold here in ol PG. He seems to be able to line up the odd call center, whoopee! They ran him out of Winnipeg and now we are stuck with him.

later...

I vote for the ice oval. I know my family would use it a lot on weekends, and hopefully its open 24 hours and people can go at all hours like any other outdoor rink. Organized people could have their time slots.

As for this trailer building business. I figure PG has a vary capable work force in this area. Look at Danchuk Trailers one of the largest dealers in the country. You also have Dynamic Decks, CC Industries, Titan Industries, and a few others.

IMO the Richie Bros building would have been perfect for a manufacturing outlet manufacturing chip truck trailers and trailers for hog fuel, as well as logging trailers. There is a huge market in PG for this kind of stuff; its very simple to make; and yet at a few hundred thousand a piece it is all farmed out of town.

Rail car manufacturing is another thing PG is well situated for. With something like that on line you then get more suppliers and maybe even a steel mill or an extrussion plant and from there its a home run that takes care of itself.

Time Will Tell