What Rob and the gang at the University need to do is get the moral of the employees back up there. The place is loosing staff in all areas at a great pace and then the expense of trying to find new qualified staff or as is done often they are just not filling positions and then overloading the staff even more.

The bottom line is that this University has bottomed out in terms of Enrolments.

It was obvious from the get go that there was insufficient people living in the North to support a University over the long term. We are now seeing the results. The continuing education program only gets you more part time students that you can use to get your full time equivelant numbers up. The FTE numbers are what they are funded on.

My guess is that when the dust settles, they will find that they have fewer students than in previous years. Lower populations, less people graduating, and of course less people registering in school district57 (500 less this year) and (500 less last year) does not bode will for the future.

Here are some preliminary figures from the same source taken at the same time last year for some of the smaller town Universities across Canada, minus the ones in the Maritimes since putting their enrolments into the mix would put the rest of Canada to shame.

As I have said over and over again when this topic comes up on Opinion 250, BC simply does not have the university seats anyone else in Canada has when it comes to seats per 1,000 population. We are very sorely lacking. We take our educated people from the rest of Canada and the world. We are net importers rather than exporters.

If UNBC wishes to grow and survive that growth, we need to address that successfully more than anything else. The more the other new universities in the province address it, the less will be left over for the UNBC pie. If they do, then their enrolment, based on Ontario standards, should increase say about 30% no matter what the demographics are. If they move to the standard of the Maritimes, they would have to grow by at least 100%.– PG

Here is the comparison based on 2004 enrolment and population figures – enrolled per 1,000 population
Pathetic from my point of view!!!! We simply do not value an education in BC, especially in the North!!!! It is the first thing I noticed when I came here 30+ years ago. There were finally some bright moments when UNBC was created and more good news when BC created thousands more seats in the past couple of years. Talk about natural resources!!!! Those are the world’s natural resources – a better educated population!!

British Columbia 20.5/1000
Alberta 27.3/1000
Prince Edward Island 28.4/1000
Ontario 32.2/1000
Manitoba 32.7/1000
Newfoundland and Labrador 33.9/1000
New Brunswick 34.1/1000
Quebec 34.7/1000
Saskatchewan 34.8/1000
Nova Scotia 47.8/1000

So, the question is what is UNBC's strategy for bringing BC up to the Canadian and Ontario average? And what is their strategy that UNBC will not only be an equal part of that growth but a leading part of that growth?

See the difference in your way of thinking about this topic Palopu and my way of thinking? I will criticize people and organizations for not getting to the meat of the matter and doing something about their bitching. I simply cannot accept attitudes of merely sitting back, taking the attitude that is the way it is, that is the way it was, and that is the way it always will be.

UNBC
2006 preliminary fall enrolment *
Full-time (undergraduates): 2,241
Full-time (graduates): 318
Part-time (undergraduates): 915
Part-time (graduates): 138

Lakehead – Thunder Bay
2006 preliminary fall enrolment *
Full-time (undergraduates): 5,600
Full-time (graduates): 450
Part-time (undergraduates): 1,450
Part-time (graduates): 100

Laurentian – Sudbury
2006 preliminary fall enrolment *
Full-time (undergraduates): 7,200
Full-time (graduates): 300
Part-time (undergraduates): 2,650
Part-time (graduates): 300

Trent – Peterborough
2006 preliminary fall enrolment *
Full-time (undergraduates): 6,690
Full-time (graduates): 220
Part-time (undergraduates): 1,360
Part-time (graduates): 60

Nippising – North Bay
2006 preliminary fall enrolment *
Full-time (undergraduates): 3,800
Part-time (undergraduates): 1,000
Part-time (graduates): 300

U of Quebec – Trois Riviere
Inscriptions préliminaires d’automne 2006 *
Temps complet (premier cycle) : 5 592
Temps complet (cycles supérieurs) : 970
Temps partiel (premier cycle) : 3 180
Temps partiel (cycles supérieurs) : 385

U of Quebec – Rimouski
Inscriptions préliminaires d’automne 2006 *
Temps complet (premier cycle) : 2 437
Temps complet (cycles supérieurs) : 473
Temps partiel (premier cycle) : 2 046
Temps partiel (cycles supérieurs) : 318

U of Quebec – Chicoutimi
Inscriptions préliminaires d’automne 2006 *
Temps complet (premier cycle) : 2 952
Temps complet (cycles supérieurs) : 630
Temps partiel (premier cycle) : 2 107
Temps partiel (cycles supérieurs) : 309

http://www.aucc.ca/can_uni/our_universities/index_e.html#Ontario

Easy for you to say Owl. However I was against this UNBC concept right from the start. I have always maintained and still maintain it was more about politics, and construction, jobs than it ever was about educating our children.

Someone in an earlier post suggested that it was about time that people in the interior grew up and faced the fact that this is a Province, and that we should support the whole not just different sections. I agree with that statement.

There was absolutely no problem with people going to Uvic, UNBC, Simon Fraser University, or the University of Alberta for an education. The argument put forward by those in favour of the Univerity in Prince George was that students could stay at home and get their education, and it would cost significantly less. However they failed to mention, or maybe they didnt realize that those people in outlying areas, Rupert, Kitimat, Terrace, Ft St John, etc; would still have to leave home to get an education, and it does not logically follow that they would automatically come to Prince George, and in fact a lot of them dont. In fact I was talking to a student this week in Quesnel who is going to Victoria for her University Education. I am sure there are many more. I would be interested to see how many people from the Interior that are registered in Universitys in the South, or Kamloops, Kelowna, and more specifically how many from Prince George go elswhere for their educatiion. This would be an interesting statistic.

In any event to equate the Northern Interior to some Universitys back East is a waste of time. The fact of the matter is this University has not increased enrolments in the past five years, and indications are that it will get worse not better. The projected graduation of grade 12 students from now until 2020 across the Province shows a continuos decline. This information has always been available to the Citizens of Prince George and to the UNBC people, however they chose to ignore it.

The people who supported and built the University, are the same ones who supported the Multiplex, the Sportplex, the Civic Centre, and are now in the process of supporting the Performing Arts Center. Each and every one of these enterprises were over built and are under utilized, and cost the taxpayers millions of dollars to maintain. Not once has anyone of these people ever stepped up to the plate and admitted that maybe, just maybe they were a little over exurberant and make a few mistakes. Not bloody likely.

I have asked this question once before and I will ask it again. At what level of enrolments would UNBC have to fall before any of you sky gazers would admit that their is a serious problem. The budget cuts last year was the first indication that there is a problem, however it will not be the last.

We have a Mayor who wanders around shaking his head making statements that the 2006 Census is wrong. He made the same statement about the 2001 Census. He doesnt understand how the population can be decreasing when employment is up, and housing starts are up. These are the same people who build monolithic structures on projected population growth that never materilizes.

If there is one bright spot in the near future, it is that almost everything is built with the exception of the PAC and the New Police Station,and the Cameron St., Bridge, after that the City will have to concentrate on paying the bills, and beleive me by that time the bills will be hefty.

As the economies in the rest of the world get better, there is less and less reasons for people to come to Canada, and more specifically to the North. In fact some people in Canada are now returning to their homelands. The trouble in Lebanon awhile ago should have given you some indication, when it was determined that in excess of 40,000 duel Canadian Citizens were living their. In addition the estimated number of duel Canadians living elsewhere is in the Millions.

The old ways are dead. You would have to offer a pretty spectacular deal to someone to get them to uproot and move to Prince George.

"The projected graduation of grade 12 students from now until 2020 across the Province shows a continuos decline."

And this has waht to do with my position in the argument and thefacts which prove my argument that BC simply does not educate its homegrown people?

Your arguments of the old ways are dead very much apply to your argument. Youra are the olde ways all the way. So give the old ways a break.

BTW, Cozetto does not seem to be the person to grwo anything, yet alone a university which can compete in today's society.

"However I was against this UNBC concept right from the start."

And this adds what to the argument? The fact that you will defend to the death that you were right from the start. Not a good debater are you? You do not deal with a single one of the points I have made.

Does anyone in opinion250.com land happen know approximately what percentage of the courses and degrees that UNBC offers, have real economic value to the taxpayers that are funding this university, ie: are there jobs out there for people who are taking these courses and degrees offered by UNBC.

Wrong Owl. I dealt with the point that you feel that if the people in charge of the University, and others in the community take the right action, then the University could in fact increase its numbers to compete with others in Canada.

What I meant by **The old ways are dead** is that there are fewer people coming to Canada from Europe, Britian, Austrailia, etc; mainly because there is no need. So in essence we have fewer people available to attend Universitys etc;. In addition the so called average Canadian family are having something in the area of 1.5 children. Hardly a number that will build up the population and eventually fill the Universitys.

When you have the whole world to pick from to get your University education then I suspect that Prince George would be a long way down the list. In addition your implication that the more people who have a University education the better, is not necessarily a good idea. The system works best when a smaller number of the people are fully educated, for the simple fact that you will never in a million years have enough high paying jobs to look after all the University graduates if we all went to University. Who would drive the taxis. fall the trees, dig in the mines, milk the cows, shovel the s---, work in the slaughterhouses, build the houses, fish the oceans, etc; etc; etc;. We already have enough people in this Province who are over educated for the jobs they hold,and in fact if we didnt fudge the system, and make it mandatory for teachers from grade 1 to 5 to have a University education we would have a hell of a lot more.

Higher education is a good thing, however it is not the total solution to all our problems. You dont need a higher education to pick berries or sling hash, however if you had it, then you would not want to do these jobs.

People who go to work every day doing mundane jobs that keep this Country running are just as important or more important than some green sweatered, pipe smoking, philosophical, tenured, University Professor who lives off the sweat of their brows, and crows continously about the life span of the *tsetse fly**

I dont see how we can have a situation where this University is in trouble, and then go to the same people who created the monster and expect them to fix it. It was these people who first and foremost wanted a stand alone University of the North. Well now they have it, and guess what? If the enrolments continue to decline, then the Government will have no choice but to make some changes. The main change will be that UNBC will become UBC or Simon Fraser University, Northern Campus, much like Kelowna, and probably this is what should have happened in the first place.

The big mistakes came when the Liberal government decided to increase university seats in Kelowna, Kamloops, Squamish.

We wanted to grow doctors here , so there's a medical school here, and hopefully docs will stay. As far as the economic impact of the university it undeniable. From their web page - FORTY NINE MILLION DOLLARS IS GENERATED BY SALARIES TO LOCAL GRADUATES.

http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/070125/d070125a.htm

"The main change will be that UNBC will become UBC or Simon Fraser University, Northern Campus, much like Kelowna, and probably this is what should have happened in the first place."

What kind of nonsense is that? I thought you said the UNBC enrollemnt was declining due to declining cohort of graduating secondary students. What does that have to do with whether it is UNBC or UBC or UVIC or Quest or Piled High and Deep U?

Palopu, try to stick to the points you are making and not defeat them with additional information you come out with after you have made a relatively reasonable point that defeats the point you made. That makes it way too easy for me.

;-)

BTW, you seem to be on this board fighting one old battle after another. This "CNC should have become a University College rather than having an independent gradute degree level University" discussion of some 20 years ago and the "BCR should never have been sold to CN" argument. How long do you keep fighting old windmills?

Move on with life. It may be fun while you still have it.

;-)

"The system works best when a smaller number of the people are fully educated, for the simple fact that you will never in a million years have enough high paying jobs to look after all the University graduates if we all went to University."

Ah, the olde "keep them dumb and down on the farm" philosphy. Great one! I always thought that was a real winner.

"You dont need a higher education to pick berries or sling hash"

True, but picking berries is a very short term job. The rest of the time will be spent ... on the dole????? And when it becomes mechanized, what happens to the berry picking job? How many berry and fruit pickers do we have today per tonne of product versus 40 years ago? Get the picture? The technical and educated people are doing the uneducated out of a job.

You also do not need a higher education to plant trees. Interesting thing is, the majority are post secondary students who have a drive to work hard.

"People who go to work every day doing mundane jobs that keep this Country running are just as important or more important than some green sweatered, pipe smoking, philosophical, tenured, University Professor who lives off the sweat of their brows, and crows continously about the life span of the *tsetse fly**"

Who says they are not? I certainly did not, nor did I imply it. The proportion of university grads who become those professors is very small to those who become other well rounded additions to our society in all walks of life.

Just think, if we did not have educated people we would not have been able to fly to the moon and back and have high definition, flat-panelled TVs and cell phones, and Ipods. Our whole economy would be in the garbage if we had needed to rely on ripe berries to pick.

Sure Owl flying to the moon was great for all the working people. We get a benefit from the Moon every day. (Cheese I expect)
High definition, flat-panelled TVs are great and go well with beer and hamburgers. Cell phone are wonderful especially for those people who are driving and have convinced themselves that they are so important that they must phone **now**. Ipods are stupid.

If people had not allowed the Government and the Lumber Co.s to go to Clear Cut logging you wouldnt need anyone to plant trees.

A University Education for everyone doesnt and wouldnt work. I know that and you know that. The cost would be prohibitive, and the education gained for most people would go unused.

I have never in all my posts ever mentioned CNC, and probably wont. Insofar as the sale of BC Rail goes I have always maintained that it should have been sold but not to CN Rail. It should have gone to either the CP Rail or Burlington Northern, and we therefore would have had a competing railway with the CN operating out of Prince George.

I said that UNBC would become part of UBC or Simon Fraser only because if enrollments keep falling how else would you operate this University? I am presuming that with less students, you could operate as some sort of a campus and still keep some semblence of a University here. What would be the alternative, to continue to operate with a bunch of part time students. Once you run out of part time students, you are looking at a significant drop in enrolments.

Trueblue. Insofar as the Medical School goes. I agree that this concept is good, however they are already having some problems. Most people are not aware that UBC has a limited number of spaces available for doctors and I beleive something like 25 are established in Prince George. What this means is that some people in the lower mainland if they want to become Doctors have to come to Prince George. I understand that this does not go over well on the Coast and people dread the fact that they may have to come up here. So its not all sunshine and ice cream cones.

"If people had not allowed the Government and the Lumber Co.s to go to Clear Cut logging you wouldnt need anyone to plant trees."

That is true for any harvesting operation. We are tree farming. That's why the licenses are called tree farm licenses. We should not be grafting grape vines, fruit trees, etc. etc. We should just be gathering like we did before the Egyptians brought farming into the "modern" world of the day.

Quest University ... the new kid on the block. It'll be interesting to see how it does. $100 million plus for infrastructure for a starting 160 or so students with a goal of 640 by 2010. $30,000 or so tuition, 50% or so international students, interdisciplinary courses in blocks of 3 week deliveries, market housing on univerity grounds to provide some income, etc. etc.

http://www.questu.ca/about_quest/brief_history.php

http://strangway.blogspot.com

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quest_University

Read the attached from Lakehead University.

The similarities of the economies, the remoteness to the capital of the province and the remoteness to the nearest larger Canadian urban centre is very similar (700+ km to Winnipeg and 1,000km to Toronto). In addition, it has a large community college population.

Geoffrey Weller came from Lakehead ot be the first president of UNBC. Fred Gilbert, the current President, was the first Dean of environmental studies, the individual who set up the forestry program at UNBC.

Reading his perception of where they are and where they are going could be written for here, even donw to the deficit they are (were?) running. That is how closely the two are related with respect to the environment they find themselves in.

http://magazine.lakeheadu.ca/page.php?i=6&p=10

• “We must grow our student numbers. To do that, we not only have to sustain our numbers in the region, but we also have to be more aggressive in recruiting southern Ontario and international students”
• “Lakehead is going to have a tremendous impact in transforming Northwestern Ontario’s and Thunder Bay’s economy into a knowledge-based economy. Just look at the work of our faculty, our Innovation Management Office, and the Northern Ontario School of Medicine. Look at the spinoff companies emerging out of our Paleo-DNA Laboratory and the Northwestern Ontario Technology Centre. There is incredible potential capacity here to develop biomedical and biotechnical businesses in Northwestern Ontario. And Lakehead will be in the forefront.”

I think main failure to date of UNBC is that it has been unable to generate a “technology park”. There were several early opportunities, but they never bore fruit. There is a new opportunity with beetle money, but I am not hearing anything. This community is simply failing to address new economies which are driving the world. We are mired in 19th and 20th century economies which have all been mechanized and have found ways of improving capacity and efficiencies in the standard way – reducing labour per unit of production. Also called “smarter” ways of doing things.

The thing society has not been able to figure out yet is how to distribute the value created with less human input back to humans so that they could have more leisure time.

I wouldn't have this computer to type this (bla bla bla) if someone didn't go to school to figure out how to provide me and Palopu with this service. Maybe Palapo has a point after all... maybe it would be better if society went back to hunter-gatherer society.