Gee whiz, I guess our fearless leaders could not have seen this coming, huh?
Maybe ask a few commoners (that's olde english for 'taxpayer') for an opinion on the choice between underground and overhead. And by the way, I would be very interested in learning what the difference in price would have been between the construction method used (cast in place concrete) and a big corrugated galvanized culvert, with a level concrete sidewalk and exterior bitumen coating. Maybe they went with cast in place because they knew it would be flooded several times a year?
And why not put in a$$#@*e proof lights to begin with? End of rant, for now.
metalman.

Who provided the specifications for the lights that were installed? I hope they were aware this structure was going to be buried!

The city was told that flooding, graffitti and other problems were going to show themselves if this was built, they could care less and built it anyways...
I have a loonie that says we have not heard the last of this tunnel and its problems.

Daaa…lets build a tunnel so the drug dealers and pimps have a place to hide and do business. What moron ever thought this was a good idea. All normal people still go above ground and cross the highway so they are not mugged in the tunnel. Just plain stupid on the City of PG.

No No your all wrong.... They did a study. Studies are always right we all know that..... ha ha!

Not like we didn't tell you so!

I had no intention of ever entering that cave like contraption so Thanks! for showing a picture of what it looks like on the inside!

Hidden cameras and remote-controlled tear gas canister launchers. That's the only non-lethal way of dealing with destructive persons in a tunnel.

Go ahead, flame me. ;-)

The City has a committee called the Design Committee. One of the key issues they are supposed to look at in building designs which come in front of them is the public safety and vandalism aspect of the public spaces parts of buildings.

However, they do not get to see everything that gets built in the city. I suspect that this tunnel never crossed their desk, and if it did, the committee, which includes RCMP on it, should be disbanded or people on it replaced for ever approving such a structure.

Since only 4 of the 5 lights in the tunnel are visible in the picture, the picture also does not quite represent the full length of the tunnel.

BTW, a simple suggestion of how to make lights like that a bit less vandal proof is to put them into the ceiling of the tunnel; even raise the ceiling by another foot or two in the centre; finally, protect them from direct access by positioning them so that they are indirect lights. Giving the ceiling a low vaulted shape would also strengthen the roof of the tunnel, requiring less reinforcing steel and less concrete thickness.

But hey, what do I know, eh?

IN DETROIT THEY BUILT THESE TUNNELS YEARS AGO..HAVEN FOR THE DRUGGIES. THEY SET UP DISTRIBUTION CENTERS ALONG WITH ARMED PUNKS TO SELL DRUGS. WHY OH WHY CAN'T WE TAKE A LESSON FROM OTHER JURISDICTIONS.TIME AFTER TIME POLITITIONS AND CIVIC WORKERS HAVE TO LEARN FROM THEIR OWN MISTAKES. THE SAME MISTAKES HAVE BEEN MADE OVER AND OVER BY OTHER CITIES.DON'T THESE PEOPLE EVER READ THE NEWS. IT'S A SIMPLE FIX....JUST ASK QUESTIONS AND LISTEN TO THE ANSWERS.

Install 2 spring loaded trap doors on each side, make sure you hide them from unsuspecting culprates. Place sensors that detect paint fumes which will trip the spring doors to close. Place a big bag of crack rocks on a another tripping device that sets off the doors. Forget patroling all night and just check the trap in the morning..

Well, I'm not sure what you do know Owl... but the tunnel appears to be made from precast concrete box culvert with keyway jonts, which takes its' strength from the sidewall compaction at time of install.

A "vaulted ceiling" is not possible for this type of product, nor is raising the roof by a foot or so.

The electrical conduits and fixtures should have been recessed and installed on the backside of the ceiling. Vandleproof lighting is so simple to acquire. This probably wasn't specified on the drawings.

Unless things have changed, the design panel only looks at plans for projects that are NOT owned by the City... they consider the City to be competent enough to build "proper" and acceptable structures.

It would seem that if a project needs to be fixed after completion, it usually becomes boring, old maintainence money instead of high pofile, capital money... so nobody pays attention to those costs.

Here is a picture of a relatively "safe" short tunnel in a high income subdivision of Kanata in Ottawa.

When it comes to vanadalism, neither overpasses nor underpasses are safe. However, underpasses are notorious for clandestine activities.

http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=1828513683&size=o

BTW, on looking at the picture of the local tunnel again, I am not sure why the electrical conduits are exposed the way they are. They should have been poured in with the concrete. You would think people in this age of communication would be able to seek out better advice of how to address such a need properly in the first place. Instead, some seem to have to go through the same learning curve at cost to the taxpayer and the purchaser of services and goods.

I actually know quite a lot about construction. It is the first time I heard of the term "sidewall compaction" in 40 years of being either in or associated with the design and construction buildings.

The walls are in compression forces from the top and in bending forces from the side. The ceiling, which is what I was referring to, is a flat structure and would have to overcome bending forces which creates tension on the bottom of the slab and compression on the top. Since concrete is in tension at the bottom, steel would have to be introduced there to overcome the tensile forces.

If you have ever looked at roman concrete structures as well as masonry structures, you would notice that they spanned distances with arches and domes. Arches and domes are shapped in such a fashion that the entire structure is under compression. Thus, they did not have to use any tensile members, which they really did not have access to anyway, to bridge large spans.

Metalman was actually right on the money when he spoke of using a corrugated structure, similar to the upland street underpass of HWY 97. That structure takes structural advantage of the curve shape. A concrete curved roof over the walls could have been built with some meshed steel for temperature reinforcing and a thickness of 3 or 4 inches rather than the 8 inches which was likely used.

The Italian and Spanish engineers are excellent at such uses of materials. They come by it honestly, having had two thousand years of history to show the way.

This tunnel can be designed and constructed by any junior technician ... which it obviously was.

"A "vaulted ceiling" is not possible for this type of product, nor is raising the roof by a foot or so."

I am not sure how much background you have in the design and manufacturing of precast components.

I am not 100% sure whether this was precast or not. However, if it was, it is a shoddy job of precast. If you look at the enlarged version of this pciture, you can see a cold joint pour mark along the entire lenght of the wall at a foot or so below the ceiling. That should not happen in a precast concrete section unless they were precast in someone's backyard operation. Also, if you look towards the far end, at the base, the sections do not quite fit. Precast, keyed (as you say) sections should have been aligned much better than that.

Again, cannot say 100% for sure, but if it is precast, it is a poor precast job in both casting and placing, and with precasting such section, a variety of shapes can be cast including a vaulted ceiling as well as a gutter at the wall face of the walking surface so that the surface stays relatively dry with surface water movement from one end of the tunnel to the other.

Notice the puddle of water on the ground towards the end. Seems like there is no slope to the ground surface at all.

We learn something new every day... keeps life intersting... even after 60 years in the game....

:-)

Owl, that's NOT a puddle of water... thats a puddle of urine. :-)

The "pour mark" is actually a slip form mark from the shaker tray.

If we assume this was precast in BC, there are only two places it might have been made... and both of them are very legitimate plants. There aren't any "backyard" precasters here.

Box culverts are not meant to be "works of art"... they are cheap and simple... well, relatively cheap anyway. Like most other things, you get what you pay for. The cost for a structural form change would have been pretty rich.

If the City had wanted something more esthetic and exotic with respect to vaulted ceilings or curved internals, they probably would have considered something more delightful.... however, it would seem that timing and costs were dominant considerations.

Cost comparisons with CMP will show you that concrete is actually much more reasonable in this application... not to mention availability..

:-)

It's a good thing that all the *positive* comments here are never read by anybody who gets paid to make final decisions because another one of these monstrosities is in the final planning stages for the By-pass, half ways between 5th and 10th Avenues.

The problem is that so far a real low spot hasn't been found, low enough to ensure constant flushing every time it rains a bit or when the snow melts.

;-)

Oh well,it seems nobody really cares about this tunnel very much right now,but I'll bet it sure gets lots of attention after the first mugging takes place!
Wait for it!

A mugging might actually not have to take place. There are many less violent steps which will render the tunnel a failure by an increasing number of people choosing to continue using the on grade route rather than the below grade route.

Also, people may choose to alter their normal pattern of use by only going in groups rather than individually. So, they will gather near their place of origin and wait till there are 3 or more people who will travel together.

1. Those who are uncomfortable using it will simply continue to cross the road at grade.

2. Those who do begin to use it, may eventually be placed into situations where they are approached in a threatening way without being otherwise harmed and will either stop using it or eventually stop using it when it happens again or they hear from others that it has happened to them.

3. Those who may be physically harmed may not be harmed bad enough for them to actually call the police since they may fear retribution.

There are more complex dynamics at play in such situations. Without someone looking inot the actual use pattern and speaking to some people who cross the street at that location, it can be difficult to tell how well the tunnel actually works.

So, a mugging will most certainly raise further alarm and to a new height, but there may be less violent but unacceptable conditions at play right now already.

I could be wrong but it seems to me that this underpass is part of the trail system and that the City got matching money from the Province, and that was why it was built. Had there been no matching money there would have been no tunnel. It has little to do with common sense.

Much like the Kin Connector Millions of dollars for a facility that is rarely used. Once again matching funds.

This town loves Concrete. It only uses lumber (laminated) for show, however for day to day usage Concrete is the in. Look at the huge monolithic seating at the new ball park at Carrie Jane Grey Park. Concrete.

We expect our customers all over the world to use wood but we avoid it like the plague. Look at the New Sports Plex on the Hill. You would be hard pressed to find much wood in that barn. Lots of concrete, and some cracking already.

If the City is going to put an underpass on Highway 97 they must be getting money from the Province, otherwise they would do diddlysquat.

Owl - "The City has a committee called the Design Committee."

I've been before that committee twice and I can confirm they are idiots! Talking about your project to anyone is always a thrill, but the problem with this group is they make recommendations that get wrote down and go to people that cause trouble by holding up the project. You can point out how stupid some of the DC ideas are, but that doesn't go over too well, because the city made the DC and has to support the group. It is a terrible way to get input, or be able to give it due consideration without creating trouble for yourself. Nobody vets the DC ideas!

If the DC was involved in this case, then the lights were probably the DC recommendation!

With that underpass situation as bad as some people say, here is a chance fer an entrepreneur to make a buck. Fine line between extortion but here goes. Why not obtain a baseball bat and have a lemonade type stand at either end of the tunnel. Warn people there may be trolls in the tunnel and suggest it may be best if you went with them. With your bat. For a fee, of course. Better make that a donation. Sounds better in court.

Another few million to fill this trouble spot in?

hey ... YDPC .... we agree on something!!!! I just mentioned the DC, because they should be looking at security/vandalism problems .. but agree that they do a lousy job ....

:-)