"Foster Mother Says Harness Only Used A Dozen Times"

They teach you in First Aid classes NOT to restrain someone who is having seisuers or fits under any circumstances because they can seriously hurt themselves from panicing and fighting the restriction.. My question is why would it be any different for children? Why didnt they give her an open space to freely have the fits from the nightmares?

Questions and more questions!
Now,it is who put the big hole in the baby bottle?
It just keeps getting worse, and I seriously doubt there will ever be any satisfactory answers to ANY of those questions.
For that to happen,someone would have to assume responsibilty for at least SOME small part of this?
So far, all I have seen is a bunch of people ducking any responsibilty whatsoever.
It's always somebody else's fault.
What WILL be interesting is what the final verdict and recommendations will be.
What a mess and what a very,very, sad state of affairs!

How many more tragedy's like this that are currently in the making while people are sitting back and not taking action. Savanah will not be the last one to suffer that fate.

Perhaps if enough people sit up and take notice of what went wrong in the death of THIS little girl,maybe,just maybe, something will get done?
But I doubt it,because for that to happen,somebody has to assume responsibility for past errors...and that just isn't going happen!
I can see it coming.

If you really want to know who is at fault
read this. It is not the ministry or the foster families. Its Society itself.
We have grown to lax in the way we live our lives. Parents are not allowed to help or intervine when their kids get hooked on drugs or alchol.Don't forget the ever popular they have "rights" to do this stuff and mess up the kids when those kids have kids leaving us with Fas, Fae, drug addicted, neglected, mal nourished, uneducated in primal functions, children.
I am a believer in rights are earned not freely given. What happened to the rights of these children to be born healthy and to have good parents.
So I think its time for society to start taking reponsibility for themselves, their actions and quit putting it on others like the foster parents and Ministry, who are their to pick up the slack where you failed.

I tend to agree that the responsibilty has been taken away from the parents.
Why this has been allowed to happen,I am not quite sure.
If you drink,do drugs,hang out in a bar,or are abusive etc.,it seems that the Ministry just comes along and puts the kids in a foster home and the parents are relieved of their role or oblications as a parent!
On with the party!
And the kids pay the price.
What would be wrong with nailing the parents for their failure to look after their kids?
I am sure they could come up with something instead of letting them simply walk away from their kids.

And another thing,if the Ministry does come in and put someones kids into care,they then have an obligation to see that it is done right.
They also have an obligation to investigate each and every complaint in regards to foster homes OR parents neglecting their kids.
No excuses such as understaffed,too busy,or lack of funds.
Most foster parents are top notch,but SOME do it for the money and that has to be watched for at all times.
The ministry is no different than anyone else and if they drop the ball,then they have to answer for that just like anyone else.
If everyone ducks the responsibilty,then nothing ever gets any better and that is exactly what is happening now!!!
SOMEBODY has to be responsible!!
So who is it??
Well,my gut instinct tell me it is the parents in the first place.
We can't fix a problem from the middle,it has to be fixed where it starts,at the begining,and if we can't fix it there,then go to the top and work down!!

Andyfreeze: Let me say this. Either way the parents get away with it if the ministry didnt take the kids they would suffer worse by being with the parents to continue to be neglected, beat etc.

I know this foster family, and let me tell you, they didn't do it for the money, infact they spent more than they were given on these kids they cared for. Their whole house was set up for kids. Not for adults. If there was a toy you could imagine they had it.
I agree if the ministry drops the ball they should be responsible. But they shouldnt pass the buck onto the foster family like they do all to often to cover their own butts, which is what they did in this case. Things were okayed and then something went wrong not even relating to what they okayed ie: the harness, they used this to cover their ass.
This harness had nothing to do with how the girl died.
Remember they kids are messed up(not normal
as we see kids should be). Their perseption is very off. IE: A bar of soap could really be toothpaste. It bubbles up like soap and if the kid doesnt like the taste they may think its soap.

I agree there are many GOOD foster homes and it isn't always easy.
My own parents took in a handful of foster kids after myself and 2 brothers were grown up and gone so I know a little about how the system works.
And I have known some foster parents who ARE in it for the money and it can happen when the ministry is not paying attention.
It is well known that if there is a problem,the ministry will start downloading onto the foster home right away.
They make damn sure they don't get any of the sticky stuff on themselves!
It is the kids who are in the middle of the crap.They are damned if they do,and damned if they don't.
But I still say that it is the PARENTS who should have to answer for the mess,and the way thing are now,they don't!
It's time to go after them for their actions!

We can all agree that parents are responsible for their children. We can even agree that they should be able to enforce some (non violent) discipline.

What happens when the parents refuse to take their responsibility? What happens if parents buy beer with food money or, as mine did, gamble it away on greyhound racing or some other form of gambling? Do we let the children starve for the rest of the week or month? The sad fact is that in families with that level of dysfunction, the children will pay the price no matter what is done.

Before we take stands based on black and white control of what other people should do, consider how you would get them to do it if they refused. Never forget that compulsion scenarios focus on the parents and invariably exclude what is happening to the children.

The present system may not be perfect, but it is better than 50 or 100 years ago. It needs improving not destroying. The Ministry could start by paying foster parents better and recognising that they may bond emotionally with the children. Show foster parents some respect, most of them really deserve it.

I agree its about time these derilict parents need to be held responsible. If your kids are taken away perminetly you shouldnt have the right to even see you kids. As I see it you didnt want to change for them before they were put into perminent care you should lose all rights to them. Quit putting the kids through hell and termoil with each visit, or lack of the visit that had been promised. Quit trying to manipulate your children in care
against the foster parents and ministry, because of your own guily feelings.

If all foster parents had to be specially educated to foster, i know for a fact that there wouldn't be many foster families.
When you parent kids, your own or otherwise
they don't come with a book of instructions
on how to build them. Its trial and error,
and a lot of hope that your doing it ok.
Don't add in to that mix alcohol and drugs.
at all. It just mixes up the pieces or makes you loose some of the pieces to the puzzles needed to raise proper and responsible adults. Otherwise they will pass this on to their kids and so on.

I couldn't agree more sams!
If and when the final verdict comes down today,it will be interesting hear although I think there is little doubt what it will be.
No one will accept any responsibility and that will be the end of it.
May Savanah rest in peace.

Not all kids in care a permanently there. I really must agree with Dr. Earl about the medical management of kids in care. These kids have complex medical issues, and little kids dehydrate far quicker than most realize. I would rather have a little kid come in and be told it is a cold than have to deal with a little kid who is critical. I suspect that Savanaugh should have had follow up and support from Children's Hospital long before she died there.

I wonder if Savannagh's seizure-like issues were not also indicating serious differences in physiology....that a simple infection is really critical? Who is following up medical? Ask some social workers..they will say the doctor...but most of us know that medical follow up is the responisibility of the patient, or the guardian of a minor patient, to seek medical advice by going to the doctor. Kids in the system do not have people following up with Individual Education Plans, nor do we have people following up on medical well. I find that there is a systems ignorance between medical and mcfd that needs to be addressed. A lot of kids, whether it is FAS or not, with mental health issues, end up in the system for one reason or another, and are not tracked properly. These cracks in communication and understanding the roles of these people in the lives of kids in "public" or "government" care need to be addressed. This ignorance needs to be followed up with medical pros and social workers and foster parents getting together and talking about roles and needs, and what information each needs to do the job better for kids in care.

As far as the blame, or not accepting responsibility part...it is the irony of the system. The political structure of mcfd is built on that kind of thinking. "It is not my fault"...it is the family, the clients not cooperating, etc. that is always blamed. If a kid is born with a mental health problem, are their parent's responsible for that? No, but those kids will end up in care because there is no real children's mental health system to keep those kids in their own families.
MCFD routinely covers up its mistakes, or as it is sometimes put..CYA. Sadly, this behaviour only gets uncovered when a kid dies....and it does contribute to the communication and service delivery problems mcfd has in doing it job.

I suspect this kid was really special needs, and that reading her for signs of illness or distress would be difficult for most. Some foster parents do an excellent job...they make up a special group of people in our society who are professional caregivers. It takes a special kind of person to care for someone else, show them love and attention, make them a part of your life, and let them go someday, not knowing but hoping their future is better. Not all caregivers should care for certain kinds of kids, and sometimes, the true nature of the kids needs is far more and truly minimized in the file records of these kids.

MCFD likes scapegoats, and they will scapegoat their own if need be. The fact that the social workers involved were ignorant, the fact that medical did not seem to know much about Savannaugh, is tragic...and it would seem that it looks like blame the foster parent time.

The soap and other allegations made in the foster homes, like other complaints, should be investigated UNTIL there is a conclusive explanation. The fact they are not shows the weakness in the investigative process MCFD has. In other jurisdictions where the burden of proof is higher, the file information is far more complete and conclusive based on investigation techniques. MCFD does interviewing, not investigation. Perhaps if they trained with the RCMP on investigation techniques, they would have better information. They rely on recording allegations...but never on finding out if there is any relevance or basis in fact for those allegations. And, in this case, we need an inquest to know about Savanaugh's last days, rather than being able to read her MCFD file. That is what makes this worse. Too many things are left undone in files, and this is just one of several files that look like this.

"If a kid is born with mental health problems,are their parents responsible for that?"
Under "normal" circumstances,no the parents are NOT at fault in any way, and we all understand that.
A whole different issue.
However,if the parents are known abusers of drugs and alcohol and the mother is found to be using those same drugs and alcohol at any time during pregnancy,your damn right she/him are at fault!
If there has been involvement by the ministry of any kind and these factors are known or even suspected,,then they have an obligation to act in the best interests of the child.
And that is exactly why ALL allegations to the ministry MUST be investigated and no excuses for the usual reasons we keep hearing.
If there was a report of that kind of behavior then the ministry must act as quickly as possible to assist that unborn child.
That is exactly why the parents need to be held accountable if that is in fact found to be the case!
Filling your system with booze and drugs while carrying an unborn child is the same as abuse of that child AFTER it is born,and should be treated that way!!
And simply seizing the child and allowing the parents to carry on with their destructive lifestyles as if nothing ever happened, is not a solution.
Investigate as to why the child is in care and if the parents are found at fault because of irresponsible behavior,then nail them for it!
In this case,allegations made against the foster home/parents should still be investigated until a satisfactory conclusion is reached.
It has been my experience that kids don't normally lie about things of this nature,although there are exceptions and misunderstandings in certian cases I am sure.
To not follow up on any uninvestigated complaints because the child has died and the case is closed, is just pain wrong!
Again,nobody accepts any responsibility.
Also,the fact that the ministry likes scapegoats and will use their own staff as scapegoats is nothing new.
It is exactly why many social workers are hesitant to stick their necks out too far.
That also needs to be changed but I doubt it ever will.
In dealing with government agencies,it is NEVER their fault!

I just want to finalize by saying RIGHT ON
andy and jane. Now this is what needs to be taken to the ministry and the Government.
People need to stick their necks out so that change can be made. Write letters
to the legislators. Demand accountability
on their part. To bring in proper laws against these drug and alchol addicted parents. Not just accountability on the national treasure and budgets.
Lets put the blame back where it belongs
mom and dad junkie or batterer etc., whether is it 3 generations ago or 1

{Keene was asked if she had altered the nipple on the bottle that was filled with the "milkshake" and she said no. But an RCMP photo of the nipple shows a large hole. When shown the photo, Keene said "It looks like someone bit it off." Realizing what she had said, her eyes filled with tears, she turned to the lawyer and asked "Did she bite it off?" }

Now wait just a minute...when my daughter was an infant, she too was sick and wouldn't eat. I made a similar concoction from milk, raw egg, and sugar. You can't get a drop of it through a baby bottle nipple no matter how hard you try. I tried nibbling the hole bigger, I tried cutting it a little, it is very difficult to alter a baby bottle nipple. You need a razor sharp knife, like an exacto or something. Even then, it is difficult. The nipple manufacturers have already foreseen the consequences of babies chewing the nipples, so they have made them from near-bulletproof material.

I cut the hole a little bit bigger using an exacto knife. The result ?... as soon as I gave the bottle to her, and she started to drink, the fluid filled her mouth completely (too much, too fast) and she began to gag. I quickly took the bottle out, turned her over (face down) on my forearm, with her head in my hand and patted her back.

The reaction was immediate, and the immediate action remedied the situation quickly.

Something to think about.

You are right about the bottle reasonableman...
And I already thought about that, but you will notice that the question was ignored?
And that's not the only question relating to the foster home that was ignored!
The bottle issue is nothing illegal or criminal but it is just another question that will not be answered.
It might have been a big part of how and why Savannah died?
But no,nobody did anything,and it might have even been the kids own fault when she bit it off?
Sure.

What I'm trying to say is that it may have been accidental. She may have been trying to do good for the child, and unknowingly caused a problem and didn't realize it. I sat and fed my daughter. The foster mother was busy with the other kids, etc.

Here is what I am envisioning in my mind.

Busy foster mother gives the kid a bottled milkshake and runs into the same problem I did...no flow. She alters the nipple, it works. She gives the kid the bottle, runs around to look after the other kids, do her household stuff, etc., busily scurrying around, not realizing there is a problem, expecting that the kid is feeding contently. Too late the problem is noticed.

I do have other thoughts and opinions about other practices in this foster home, however, the death and cause of it may have been accidental.

We never get to the bottom of anything, though, because everyone tailors their testimony to benefit themselves or their organization, authorities especially.

The complete truth almost never comes out.

I am quite sure that this death was in fact accidental, but perhaps with mitigating circimstances?
However,if no one is singled out for making some serious errors in judgement or care,then how can there be any effective corrective measures taken by the parties involved?
There doesn't seem to be anything very specific in the jury's recommendations regarding the foster home itself or the people involved, and that concerns me greatly.
Was something missed?
You would think that someone would have picked up on something that wasn't done right or some element of suspicion that all was not well and at least given it some mention.
And your right reasonableman,the truth is usually tailored to fit the desired outcome.

was anyone of you in the court room?

do you know all the facts?

I suggest its easy to have these opinions if you dont know it all....and not easy for a juror, with all the facts, to make a decision that effects so many people and can in NO way help the child.

and why make recommendations to a family that is no longer a foster home?

It really doesn't matter if it is still a foster home or not...the allegations SHOULD have been investigated.
And they still should, if only to finish the process and deal with any doubt.
If they are unfounded allegations,then that is the end of it.
Now the speculation will go on forever, and the foster parents will never clear their name completely.
I don't think that is fair to them,or those that made the allegations in the first place.

the allegations were investigated and the home was shut down.

RCMP have no definate proof....and no definate cause of death...