Why don't the natives buy the Pope and Talbot pulp mill, and then utilize their treaty fiber supply to generate all sorts of spin off benefits to band members?

I'm sure if the natives took it on they could have the ability to make it a far more efficient operation, especially if more then one Band brought their regional and specific strengths to the table. The looming forestry crisis if managed right could be the best opportunity the natives have ever had. It wouldn't be that hard to utilize the considerable land value (cash flow potential) of the natives as equity in any deal backed with the right kind of guarantees.

I suspect most will be looking for the hand out rather than the opportunity, because that is the way it has always been.....

An excellent idea Chad... but it just doesn't seem to work. There are at least a dozen examples of that concept that have failed in NBC... all with the common denominator of non participation after zillions of dollars have been spent to put everything in place.

It seems that long term committments just fizzle after the initial enthusiasm evaporates... sometimes it takes less than a full season to flounder... and it is always someone else's fault.

Very frustrating.

And also no word about the sawmill in Ft. St. James? Or has that community already been written off the 250 Map?

Actually Chadermando, i think you have an excellent idea there. Especially if the you consider that by logging treaty lands, the stumpage fees could be eliminated. A very sustainable and profitable operation. The First Nations could operate many profitable business ventures by escaping some of the tax burden.

It never seems to work because we not only continue to treat the "Natives" as a "group" rather than as "individuals", we encourage retention of all the aspects of their outdated 'culture' that does the same thing amongst themselves.

"We" assume "we" know what's best for them, and in doing so re-inforce their historic, stone-age, communal 'culture' that's based on an outdated perception of 'scarcity', and continues to discourage 'individual initiative'.

Do we ever see any INDIVIDUAL Natives opting to start small businesses that might serve the needs of their people, using their own resources, and run on a main-stream 'commercial' basis? As an 'individual' entrepreneur identifying a 'need', of which I'm sure there are many, and setting out to fill it?

In some enterprise where he has an opportunity to either "go broke, or make a million bucks" based solely on the type of service he actually provides? Same as any non-Native does.

Would a Native wishing to do such a thing on his own First Nation's territory receive any encouragement for his 'initiative' within his own 'tribal' culture?

I would contend he would NOT! Instead of starting small, gaining experience, and growing if necessary to maintain or enhance success, a Native making such a proposal would likely be told by his "Chiefs" that such is not the 'Native' way.

That rather than 'owning' a business, where the success or failure rests on his shoulders and his alone, the best he might hope for would be to 'manage' a business, a 'Tribally owned business', that will invariably be too large, too complicated, and too capital intensive to ever succeed. In spite of having an endless stream of highly paid non-Native 'consultants' to 'advise' him.

Fort St.James has been P&T's cash cow.
The rumour is that much of the money from that mill was going to susdize their other mills elsewhere.
They are probably holding out for big bucks for that mill, but they have huge debt and a lot of it is owed locally in the Fort.
Two logging/trucking outfits in the Fort have leins on the wood in the yard, so I would think they will have to be paid before anything happens.
Watch them try to get the contractors to go back hauling and then screw them over again!
That is assuming that the mill even starts up!
What a mess!

Socredible, you have some valid points, nonetheless i do also believe in culture and do see the need or desire to maintain ones identity. Whether we like the first Nations ideology or not, I prefer to live in a world that embraces that we are different and we don't all have to be capiltalistic greed mongering whores.

I agree with both of you and socredible pisspulper,however,with the amount of money being given to 1st.nations people every year,they really should be doing better for themselves.
The problem is not the people themselves, but more with the poor band managment.
Not much different than our culture I suppose.
The rich get richer and the poor get poorer, and many band members will tell you just that!

If the natives have an opportunity to generate real jobs and substantial amounts of money they will find a way to integrate their culture into it. Isn't there a band in alberta that controls land on the tarsands whose chief manages the businesses etc....they are indeed very wealthy. The chief travels all over north america and gives seminars to other native groups on how to be profitable in business enterprizes based upon his model or work ethic. (saw it on W5??)

I don't think native people have any particular problem maintaining their "identity", nor really in having pride in who they are. But their 'system' is really holding them back. I've worked alongside many native people and they're every bit as good at any job they turn their hand to, and even better at some, than any white man.

But my point is, when these fellows learn something their 'system' discourages them from putting it to good use, within their own 'culture'.

Some I've know have gone into businesses for themselves in the 'white-man's world' and done very well. And no, they're not 'greedy', they were just darn fine businessmaen who provided something that somebody else wanted. And did it better than the next guy.

But they COULDN'T have done the same thing within their own culture, even though there may have been a genuine need for the services they provided successfully outside of it right there. That culture is too 'communal'. Which was fine in the 'stone-age', when life itself was hard, and life-expectancy a fraction of what it is today. (That's why there never were very many 'natives'.) Nowadays there should be plenty of opportunity to utilise the resources which have been transferred to the Natives. And there would be, and sustainably, too, but not so long as the 'communistic' aspects of their culture continue to hold sway.

Thank you Socredible for enlightening me as to why the natives will never do better. In your opinion it's because they are communist. That,s a fair leap that you make from communal to communistic in your post. Are you suggesting that the Quaker commune on Kootenay Lake is a communist community. i hardly think so. My mother used to attend "afternoon socials" If I just jump from social to socialism then I guess she would qualify by your line of reasoning as a communist. That never happened either. Once a Socred , always a Socred. As the old saying used to state "Better red than Socred"

Camoose, I think there's a big difference between people like the Quakers 'choosing' to live in a 'commune', and working together of their own free will towards some common objective, and the system that an ordinary First Nation's person is born into and subject to. Does he have any choice, or even any say, in how that 'system, one that's becoming well endowed with both cash and resources as a result of the Treaty settlements, is going to benefit him? Oh, he may get a 'job' out of it, for awhile, but is that what he really wants? Did anybody ever ask him what he really does want? Or does the "Chief" and the relevant 'politboro' make all those decisions for him?

Campbell and his crowd are just salivating at the prospects of dealing with a few "Chiefs", whose new sovereign 'First Nation' won't be subject to any of the restrictions or annoyances that now pervade Crown lands outside those transferred to these groups.

His big monied cronies are already 'joint-venturing' with the "First-Nations" Chiefs. They'll log and strip mine the resources off those territories faster than the ink will dry on the next Treaty. And the poor natives, the many who aren't "Chiefs"? They're in for a scalping worse than any ever visited on the white man!

And to prove my point, the 'nuts and berries' ditzbrained "Environmentalists" are all so convinced that the 'natives' are going to be so in tune with 'Nature', they won't even see what's happening already with the few Treaties that have been settled. Just look at the Tsawassen, and the coming 'pave-over' of some of the best agricultural lands in BC for another 'container port'.

As if we need one, to unload more junk from the Orient to further clog up our already overloaded landfills a month or two after it's been bought.

Pope and Talbot, by former CEO Peter Pope's own admission, had been reduced to being primarily a 'commodity speculator' in recent years. There's really no money to be made in producing lumber or pulp, per se, any more.

Their most valuable core asset, their huge tract of private forest and residential land on Washington State's Kitsap and Olympic Peninsulas were 'spun off' into a separate timber management and property development 'limited partnership' years ago. Much of this property is prime residential waterfront, and they're on at least the third crop of trees down there, which grow at something like an average of 13% a year, (better than anyone will ever make running a saw or pulp mill these days up here).

Interfor seems to be the 'liquidator'for many forest products firms that get themselves in trouble. Strange, since it was once quite financially troubled itself.