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Yes Sir.. Those Back Yard Fire Pits Are the Reason For the Poor Air Quality In Prince George

By Ben Meisner

Thursday, December 20, 2007 03:45 AM

        

Here we go again. , The Air Quality Implementation Committee takes a shot at the individual home owner, but when it comes to the air quality, the word "industry" barely warrants a mention.

You could have almost guessed without looking at the report who would get targeted, those pesky people who decide to have a wiener roast in their back yard  during the summer have to quit that practice. It is according to the report causing air quality problems. How much does the practice contribute to the air quality in the city…. Don’t know but we hope to know in a few months.

Of course there is no mention of the back yard Barbeque which, when roasting your hamburger, contributes more to the quality of the air shed , that's simply to tough to sell to the public.  

Just what does the back yard fire contribute to the air shed? 1% or less because every report that you read suggests that before we start hammering on the individual home owner we should be tackling industry, but of course, industry has the money and they will take you to court, the average Joe can’t afford the cost of the court action, so we can hammer them all we like.

Would someone have the guts of conviction to start with the major problem of air quality in this city, industry? The problem has been and  continues to be, that we go after the flea on the elephant instead of the animal itself. This practice has been going on for the past 2 decades and until we muster up the courage to meet the problem head on would those involved please quit hammering on the average Joe?

We weren’t told the last go round just how much the back yard wiener roast contributed to the air quality and so far after several years , they still haven’t been able to come up with a figure, except to say , outlaw the practice.

There is also another issue the group might want to tackle first and that is the matter of just what is a public nuisance?  If the courts say that you don’t have the right to decide the issue then any by law is doomed to the same ash can as other by laws in this city that were good and nothing more.

If the city wants to pony up the money for new wood stoves in homes around the city, fair and well. There is an argument to be made in that regard. But in the final analysis put your money were it will do the most good and so far over the past two decades no one has done that.

 I’m Meisner and that’s one man's opinion.


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Comments

They're just copying Kamloops new bylaw which has people up in arms there.
Why always harp at industry? Most of them have spent millions upon millions of dollars in reducing the pollutants they must release into the air. Without these industries you wouldn't have a community...so suck it up or move out of the bowl to where the air is cleaner.

Maybe the Healthcare providers, teachers, socialworkers, communitee employees (people that receive their wages from tax revenue)get off industries back. We need industry in this town otherwise we won't grow, without growth we have nothing. Mind you we will have a town that is to big to be small and to small to be big a real conundrum.
To grow this town we need a lot more Forestry, mining and manufacturing, a real solid tax base, unfortunatlly these industries affect the airshed, the watersheds the very environment around us. These industries need to be policed otherwise they will ride roughshod over the environment, but they have to be encouraged to set up shop here and they have to be encouraged to grow.
Is industry to blame for the quality of our airshed? Yes. Are backyard firepits? Somewhat. Are shutting down backyard firepits the answer to the quality of air? No. Is regulating the industry to death the answer? No. Ask Mackenzie what happens when an industry shuts down. You won't pay much of your mortgage at $9.00 per hour.
I thought the Third Reich was defeated in World War 2 but i was mistaken!!
I thought the backyard weiner roast fires were only banned when the air quality index was at dangerous levels. My understanding is that most of the time you are free to have backyard fires. It does make for attention grabbing news headlines though to keep bringing up the fire pits.
"Why always harp at industry"

Because they are the primary contributor to the abhorrent air quality that we have to deal with.

"We need industry in this town otherwise we won't grow"

Partially true. What we really need is CLEAN industry. The industry we currently have is doing nothing for growing the City. In fact, it's likely holding the growth of the City back.

As you guys are fond of pointing out, bylaws are seldom enforced. Summer is only a month long in a good year anyway, not much chance of getting fined.
The City can not regulate industry when it comes to air quality. That is a Provincial juridiction and comes under the Ministry of Environment.

Our friends at City hall are just spinning their wheels and trying to make us believe that they are green minded when they don't have a clue as to what they are doing.

Cheers
We slam industry for not doing enough, but then we should not turn around and recommend to flaunt/ignore existing city bylaws! Death: "As you guys are fond of pointing out, bylaws are seldom enforced. Summer is only a month long in a good year anyway, not much chance of getting fined."

Sure! Bingo!

It would be interesting to see the fine particle readings today seeing that both Brink and Winton Global are not working. The reading should be lower, you can see the fine particles in the air from the mills when the light hits the right way and other times so much is going in air that you can take photographs.

I was told be a staff member at MOE that we were better off with the beehives as the particles were larger and did not get deep into the lungs.
The City may not have the power to regulate emissions, but how about a new business license class for heavy industry? It could cover all operations who's emissions are over a set limit for particulate, etc.

Make the cost of the license 1M per year. If that doesn't work, keep raising it until it gets to the point where it's cheaper for industry to clean up their facilities than to pay for the heavy polluter business license. Nothing will change until you hit them where they feel it. In the case of these businesses, that's the bottom line . . .
I will not respect misguided regulation & I am prepared to deal with the consequences.
What would be the optimum growth for a liveable City?

Anyone know?

I think there are University cities in England and the rest of the world that are just beautiful and unpolluted.
The right way is to work towards changing regulation that is felt to be *misguided* although I personally prefer clean air over air that is full of woodsmoke, no matter where it comes from, so I am o.k. with the bylaw.

A propane barbecue does a fine job of roasting wieners and burgers and it is still perfectly legal to use it.

Woodsmoke is a carcinogenic substance, i.e. a health concern.
Once legisltion is enacted it is never repealled. Speed limits, for instance, have been artificially low since the 70s.
I live in the bowl, btw, & smoke from backyard fires would seem to me to be a minor factor a best. Woodstoves/fireplaces in the fall are another story though....
Wood, propane and natural gas are all carbon but propeane and natural gas also add sulfur to the airshed that wood does not.
I decided some time back that the city was a waste of skin, moved out to the country and never looked back. What a bunch of maroons.
I for one will not be changeing my habits of haveing a fire in my back yard. I think the greenie that was on the radio this am does not have a clue what is causeing poor air situations if she thinks backyard burning is it.We do need industry in this town to survive. I have heard that Carcross YT is a very nice place to live and has very clean air. Mabey the idiot greenie should move there....
Yes but the only time the fire pits are banned is when the air quality is really bad. The rest of the time go ahead and roast your weiners. Is that so bad?
I quote Jim
"...so suck it up or move out of the bowl to where the air is cleaner."

You do realize Jim that the "bowl" subsidizes you so that you have the privilege of living away from it.

We have to build bridges and maintain roads so you can get into the bowl.
Yes and some of us who live outside the bowl also pay very high taxes. Remember Carcross...
Parrothead... "maroons" ?? Are you saying they are a bunch of raspberry colored folks ??

Or maybe you are thinking they are part of the larger group... the "Morons" .. that special club that has such high standards for membership !!... (No, not Mormons... that is another gang alltogether...)

Help me out here... I'm kinda confused. :-)

Buzz... you are looking at the current bylaw that says no fires on bad air days... the new regulations will mean no backyard fires on any day... good air or bad air.. no fires at all.

Goodtimes..!!

:-)

RRabbitt we must organize to put a stop to this bbbbbbbbbbb...
"We do need industry in this town to survive. I have heard that Carcross YT is a very nice place to live and has very clean air. Mabey the idiot greenie should move there"

Care to explain why we need to be reliant on heavily polluting industry in order to survive? Why it is that most every other City in Canada can have better air than us (significantly in most cases), yet they still manage to survive and in many cases prosper?

For the record, I'm starting to believe that this whole "we are SO dependent on heavy industry" is a load of bunk. I've yet to see any evidence, other than purely anecdotal, that would support that statement. It sure sounds good and I'm sure it makes people tremble in fear at the prospect of a mill having to shut down because of the "evil greenie's", however, when you look at employment by sector, manufacturing and natural resources represents about 15% of the labour force in PG. Just for comparison, the provision of health care, social assistance and education represents about 20%.

In a diverse economy, we need a little bit of everything to survive. That also means that we shouldn't pander to one sector at the expense of everybody else who wants to set up shop here or live here. The air quality here isn't exactly a minor inconvenience. It's a bloody ridiculous state of affairs.
Okay Dozer... I'm all over that idea... but don't try to sucker me into marching alone... it's no fun dragging a two-person banner by myself... been there a couple of times.... the last parade of our Moron chapter was a big embarrassment....

:-)






NMG, how many of those 20% jobs would still be here if the 15% got up and walked away. Then there would also be 15% less jobs in the grocery stores and malls and etc etc. The town would rely on the University to support it. Good luck with that they just cut back a bunch of programs because of funding.

Back to the camp fire topic. It is ridiculous. How about a bylaw prohibiting people from idiling their cars for 20 minutes every morning for a cup of coffee.
Not to mention the fact that the public sector (social work, health care etc.) is bloated & inefficient by nature.
"NMG, how many of those 20% jobs would still be here if the 15% got up and walked away"

Given that for every 15 people working in manufacturing and natural resources, there are 85 people who don't, I suspect many of them would still be here. Would there be a ripple effect of sorts? Of course there would. Would it be a death blow? I think not. Other stuff would eventually fill the void. Besdies, not every manufacturing job is going to dissapear. The point was to try and reiterate that the majority of people in this City DO NOT directly rely on these heavy industries for their livelihood.

"Not to mention the fact that the public sector (social work, health care etc.) is bloated & inefficient by nature"

That may be true, however, the reality is that there are far more people employed by the Public Sector in Prince George, than by industrial operations. You simply can't ignore the fact that a significant amount of economic activity in Prince George is tied to public sector funding, much of which is not terribly impacted by the forestry sector. That's a pretty nice luxury to have, unlike smaller centres that don't have that type of funding pouring in for various services.

But yeah, I agree that banning backyard fires as a solution to our air quality problems is ridiculous, LOL.
It certainly is ridiculous, and if they try to pass a bylaw we should raise hell.
I am sick and tired of Joe Citizen getting it in the ear for every problem caused by industry and the City who are the biggest pollutors.

The City prides itself on having idle free zones, however once their vehicles leave their yards they idle all day long. (What a bunch of BS)

In addition their refusal to get the Cameron St. bridge up and running in a timely manner caused huge back ups at 5th and Highway 97. This congestion over a 4 year period caused more pollution in the airshed because of idling traffic than back yard burning would do in 100 years.

They were lackadasical about street cleaning until they were pressured, and they still do not do a stellar job.

Last but not least its time for these vested interet groups to quit sucking up to City Hall to get money for their pet projects at the expense of the taxpayers.
"NMG, how many of those 20% jobs would still be here if the 15% got up and walked away."

Guess what .... that 20:15 ratio of today was more like a 10:30 ratio in the late 1960's when mill employees were thousands more and they were producing considerably less on top of that.

In 10 years that 15% mill employess will be dwon to 10% due to further efficiencies plus the reduction in feedstock.

So, get your head out of the sand and see how we can increase the 15% jobs by adding jobs in cleaner industries and adding facilities outside the bowl for putting any new heavy industry in place.

Why are people so dense that they think they need to fill up the BCR or River Road?

Travism, you of all people with a University level education ought to know better!!! If we can't count on people like you to be able to move into a more modern era rather than becoming a Ludite, I think we are doomed.
Be prepared for this folks. They are going to be coming at you with the idea that 25% of the PM2.5 in this city is produded by home based wood fires, whether outdoors or with wood fired appliances in the homes.

The preliminary figures are in. It is likely those preliminary figures they are betting on when they came up with this plan that appears to be premature. In the spring they will unvail it, and will say "we told you so, here is scientific proof."

If you do not believe me, ask the folks in the implementation planning committee about the Sonoma Report. The industry latched righ onto that and is running with it. They could not have had a better Chritmas gift.

Problem is, the report is so full of obvious holes, it is not funny.
Nothing like a hot summer night with the windows closed due to the weenie roast/camp fire and sing along next door. Fires within city limits? I have never understood that since moving to Prince George. Time to let go of the past and move into the 21st century. Just gather up your friends and head out to one of our many natural spots for a weekend of camp fires. Enjoy these great activities in a more user friendly environment, we live in a region that you can access such great spots in minutes. But I guess it is your right to get a big smoking fire going in your own back yard as much as it is mine to turn up my stereo so it can be heard 10 bocks away or better yet I can purchase 40 chickens and 40 turkeys to raise for in the fall. Nothing like the smell of poultry poop on a hot summers day! In either case the police and bylaw folks would be over to turn me down and remove my poultry.
I guess my only recourse is to move out of the city into the country. Better yet get the heck out of this "bush bunny" town and move to a more user friendly city that lives in the 21st century.
We need to grow up in this town.
IMO if you don't like the neighbours fire pit... then I would say its time to find another place to live.

As for animal farms in the city that is an entirely different question dealing with completely different circumstances.
>>>>>I quote Jim
"...so suck it up or move out of the bowl to where the air is cleaner."

You do realize Jim that the "bowl" subsidizes you so that you have the privilege of living away from it.

We have to build bridges and maintain roads so you can get into the bowl


We made a choice to not live in the bowl area of Prince George based upon good common sense. If your health [or sense of smell] cannot handle the air quality in the bowl then may I suggest a home on the Hart Highway? Read: the air quality is so good they don't even measure it. We lived up there for over 18 years...and I dont' think that the 'bowl' as you describe it subsidized a damn thing for it.

It's simple really, which I know for some is a challenge. But if you don't like the smell of cow poop....don't buy a home next to a cattle ranch.
Very creative vision Jim.

All the people that live in the bowl can move out to where the air is cleaner.

Don't know why I didn't think of that.

Just think, of how the taxes would go up on the Hart Highway as they would then have have to pay for the slums created by such a move.
Isn't most of the Hart already a slum?
Owl,

I agree that transitioning to lower impact is worthwhile, however, as you pointed out, it is happening on its own anyway. Instead of kicking an industry when is down, give them a break.

And if it wasn't for forestry I wouldn't have my University Education.

"Isn't most of the Hart already a slum?"

Most certainly the part that is visible from the Highway. Sand mining, pubs, slum motels, a house or two here and there, a few trailer parks .... it's a great example of what happens if no one cares what is built where.

Zoning???? what zoning?? It will take decades more to clean that up since one cannot force building users to change uses and improve their properties..

As an entrance to the city, it is the worst of the four until you start going down from the plateau and the view of the City opens up ....
"And if it wasn't for forestry I wouldn't have my University Education."

Guess what, my father was an accountant for EB EDDY in Ottawa/Hull. I could say the same thing. Much of Canada was/is dependent on Forestry. That does not mean we have to continue doing business the way it was done when we got that education. Part of the education was received in order to participate in improving the systems around us rather than repeating the same things over and over again as we find out new information.

I grew up with the "smell of money" in Ottawa so nobody has tell me what it smells like if forestry=money.

However, for those who live in suburban urban areas of such cities, areas with research parks and light industrial parks, the money generated there really does not smell. It is an intersting phenomenon.

Just about the time when they built the pulp mills here, they removed the paper mills from the middle of Ottawa/Hull and rebuilt them in Gatineau removed form the centre of population and to a much higher standard of emission and production.

I do not think it is too much to ask for PG to move into the modern world standards 40 years after Ottawa and others such as Cornwall later did as well.

Industry just invested some $20 million or so to build a pellet plant that is producing more PM2.5 than any other single source in this City other than the Pulp Mills and they are producing it closer to the city than the older plant which is being decommissioned is.

If we had a policy in place last year such as what is being tlaked about now, and if we had had a heavy indutry park ouside the bowl ready to go, the same investment would not have impacted people living here. That same pellet plant is not even using the electrostatic precipitators that other plants using wood fired generators are using.

Inustry is not interested in the health of the people in this community, the City is not interested in helpng new indusry such as that plant, and the MOE is too week to exercise its responsibilities and duties to our health, and the Ministry of Health is not even involved other than to sit on the steering committee and twiddle its thumbs.
Electrostatic precipitators (several stages, if necessary) must be followed by wet scrubbing if the PM2.5 particles haven't been removed by then.

If the company is financially unable to meet these standards for the sake of the health of the community is must be asked to apply for loan grants from federal and provincial sources or, if that is not an option to relocate to outside of the airshed.

Who goofed so pathetically to issue them a license and permits in the first place?

The pulpmills have spent hundreds of millions already but must be prompted to go one more step and eliminate the PM2.5 emissions altogether.

When will we ban private woodburning in the airshed and take the old clunkers off the road that pollute 30times as much as a modern vehicle?

Anything more than two decades old should be scrapped.

It's coming, to be sure. The only question is: when?

Carbon emission taxes are coming not only for business and industrial users, but also for private consumers.

Expect a carbon levy on gasoline, diesel, natural gas and electricity generated with coal and natural gas.

It will hit everybody in the pocketbook. Harper already hinted that it is going to become a reality, as did B.C.'s Finance Minister.

Ouch!

"Who goofed so pathetically to issue them a license and permits in the first place?"

The MoE, that is why the permit is being appealed.
In one word 'Husky Oil'. OK two words.

That bloody place makes me almost puke every time I drive by it. The thick carbon-sulpher like smell is so strong it penetrates the vehicle with all the windows up and air on recirc with the fan off. I don't know how anything survives within a kilometer of that place. I can actuall feel how deep each breath penetrates the lungs. It feels like breathing cancer to me.

I am at a loss as to how that Huskey Refinery was ever allowed to be built in a bowl airshed a mere mile from a major population centre. The last few days its been blowing straight into the bowl and I can taste it as far as Pine Centre.

The pulp mills are small pollutors IMO compared to the Huskey plant. I would say IMO that 90% of Prince George pollution problem is Huskey Oil.
"Expect a carbon levy on gasoline, diesel, natural gas and electricity generated with coal and natural gas."

Thed Europeans have been paying environmental taxes on at least gasoline for decades. That is why their prices are so high.

The fuel extracted through the oil sands has to be the highest carbon producer in the world. That should be accounted for. Compared to some of the oil in places like Iraq, where it is "sweet" with little refining needed and little energy required to pump it out of the ground since it is under high pressure, the source should be considered in setting the taxation.
To cook oil out of the Alberta tarsands by burning huge quantities of the non-renewable resource natural gas makes no sense whatsoever.

It is a political taboo to question this, of course.

Alberta will go nuts if Ottawa changes the existing rules.

The Liberals didn't dare, Harper doesn't dare and even the NDP (if in power) would not touch the subject because any party that does would commit political suicide.

The Americans don't care - they buy the oil that we export to them!

It's our Canadian problem if we remain in non-compliance with Kyoto our whatever replaces Kyoto in the future as long as they get our crude oil from us to maintain their wasteful habits!



See today's province headlines: Prince George has BC's deadliest air!