I am so sorry to hear of this sad news. My thoughts go out to all of you at Winton Global, who has been an honorable and integral part of our community.

Very bad news and my condolences to all those affected.
The sad thing is, it will probably get much worse before it ever gets better!
There are just no easy solutions on the horizon.

At least another year of this crap to go through!

Terrible news, good luck to those affected.

I'm tired of listening to Brink whine about the incompetence of the city. It sounds like he's gearing up to run for mayor. He has a point though;"This industry is in critical shape." Of course, the shape of the industry will not prevent outfits like Canfor and Abitibi from shipping raw logs down south to the States.

Well for the last 20 years or so the lumber insdustry has made nothing but big money. The unions have held the employers hostage and the good times are coming to a end. Ask anyone who has been involved with the forestry industry they have had good times big $$ per hour most people were envious of that industry. Now I'm glad I don not work for that industry. Oh by the way we are hiring now, but wages not as good.

"The unions have held the employers hostage"??? "After the last 20 years or so the industry has made nothing but big money".
Now just who do you think made this industry all this big money??? Now that the huge profits are not there these companies are shutting down and tossing all these people out on the street. These companies can stay in operation and keep our citizens employed, but due to corporate greed that will never happen. You don't think for one minute any of these companies are in business so the people that make them all these profit can benfit from it do you? Give your head a shake Monekate your living in a dream world. LMAO your hiring now but the wages are not as good, hmmmm, what company is that? Mcdonalds, What an idiot.

It is the unions of this province that have brought all the benefits we enjoy as employees. If it were not for unions we would all be working for companies like Wal-Mart and working 16 hr days and 6 days a week. Let me repeat that, What an idiot.

In the past unions did push to get high wages and yeah some guys were probably overpaid, but that is not much of an issue any more as supply and demand has pushed the wages for non-union comparable jobs higher than union rates. If you're good you make good money.

Union or non-union won't matter any more......most everyone in the forest industry will be unemployed.

With regard to the softwood lumber arbitration case (between the United States and Canada), the following is from the fxstreet.com web site.

"A ruling was expected Friday on the U.S./Canada softwood lumber agreement from the London Court of International Arbitration, but it was delayed, traders said. This left the market in a sort of limbo while traders awaited a decision, according to traders."

If anyone wishes to read the entire article, the following is the link to it.

http://www.fxstreet.com/futures/news/article.aspx?StoryId=ed7d8fcd-be48-4d83-8c88-40b706ec69cc

lostfaith writes "..These companies can stay in operation and keep our citizens employed, but due to corporate greed that will never happen..."

How there's an example of an idiot statement. I wonder how you pay your credit card, or does your Mom do it? It wasn't corporate greed that made the operating costs so high, or the low value of the product. What an idiot!

While I don't believe for one minite that unions bled to death another fine company, it does make one think about what union's need to survive.

A good steady, endless payroll source is the basis of union success today. The obvious target for unions would be the taxpayers living under any of the three layers of government. Now that is an endless source of money! If the unions want more money, just raise the taxes. The government is scared of the unions and the unions even have their own arm of government called the NDP.

Interesting. No wonder taxes keep going up and nothing gets better. Or maybe I'm just suffering from "corporate greed" and don't like tax increases. Heehee!

Lostfaith, the forest products companies make 'lumber', not 'money'. 'Money' is made in an entirely separate process, mostly nowadays by the banking industry.

All any forest products firm, or any other type of producer can do in regards to 'money' is to GET IT, and it has to be got from someone who has some and is willing to part with it in exchange for their product.

While it's true that Unions have advanced the cause of the working man, and, in my opinion, (and I've long been on the Employer's side of the table), are still very much neeeded in many industries, (particularly where there are layers of 'middle-management' people between the owners and the workers), the old "us-versus-them" adversarial relationships between management and labour should be supplanted by the modern reality that nowadays it's Management AND Labour together that need to confront 'Finance'.

The real problem isn't with the 'production' of lumber, nor that there isn't still a real demand for it. As long as there are people who are homeless, or poorly housed, there is a need for the product. And though the lifespan of any wooden structure is not indefinite, lumber still is one of the greatest constuction materials ever devised. And the real demand for it will always be there, but that real demand cannot currently be made fully 'financially' an EFFECTIVE DEMAND.

The problem is with 'money'. There is no real nexus between REAL DEMAND and REAL ABILITY TO SUPPLY THAT DEMAND that is currently properly capable of expression through 'money'. Because the 'supply' of 'money' is NOT related to anything REAL in terms of our capacity to actually 'produce', and our genuine need to 'consume'.

Setting 'management' against 'labour' and vice versa is completely counter-productive. They need to work together to "bake that bigger pie", rather than quibbling about who should get a "meal-ticket" for a slice of one that's always going to be artificially kept too small, and not going to satiate anyone's hunger.

Yama, in regards to your last, both 'unions' and 'management', (and 'government') make the mistake of trying to divvy up something which is insufficient in its totality in the first place.

That 'something' is MONEY. And it currently is not based on the realities of our ability to 'produce', as it properly should be, but rather on the whims and vagaries of what suits the banking industry, as it acts in a way in which it believes 'protects' ITS best interests. Not OUR best interests.

No one can ever make what is a chronic 'insufficiency' into a 'sufficiency'by simply RE-DISTRIBUTING it. That's always been the NDP's greatest failing. They don't seek to end poverty, they want to universalize it. Their motto should be "Misery likes company", for that's always what their policies, or anyone else's policy based on 'socialism', will ever induce.

The key is to make MORE 'sufficient', for everyone, what is now 'insufficient', and distribute it to all in a manner that allows us to fully draw on the capacity to produce that currently exists, but is grossly underutilised through lack of 'money'.

Sorry to all who lost their jobs :(
In May Northwood Pulp might go on strike we think?????

When the saw mills that have concessions with the employee's and unions to lower wages and stay in business what really is that saying, wages to high? Two mills in the north have done that and are in production today. Maybee the answer is lower your cost of manufacturing and stay in business, don't do this and close your doors. The over all answer is stay competitive, change with the market, then business might succeed.

Monekate: "Well for the last 20 years or so the lumber industry has made nothing but big money. The unions have held the employers hostage and the good times are coming to a end."

There is only one question that comes to mind when I read the above statement: Was it the wrong time for the unions to ask for decent wages and benefits *when the lumber industry was making nothing but big money for decades*?

Obviously then, supposing the lumber industry is making little money or no money - would you say that at THAT time the unions should try to negotiate decent wages and benefits?

All the factors (except for the beetle issue) are totally external in nature - and again/still we are getting side swiped with endless law suits and non-compliance with the softwood lumber agreement by our gracious neighbours to the south.

Hopefully mining gets revved up sooner rather than later.

If approved, Prosperity which is west of Williams Lake will have 500 direct jobs, that pay more than Sawmills. Promises to have 1250 indirect jobs as well. That is but one example. There are a pile of mines trying to get going, the sooner the better I say. Maybe Uncle Bob (Simpson) can do something to jump start the process???

Pretty much a sitting duck if you are a unionized hourly employee in the forest industry.

How come everyone is always down on unions. Now lets talk about the real problem, management. In my outfit we are top heavy with management. There are not enough real workers that actually produce the product, but a lot of managers. Managers hire more managers. We got a 3% raise, management got 8%, go figger. Workers are in short supply, but management seems to come by the gross. If there seems to be a problem, hire more managers, it goes on and on. Look at Lakeland Mills for example, it is about to collapse under the weight of management.
There is a real worker shortage but management seems to be a dime a dozen and that is about what most of them are worth.

seamutt.. If it wasn't for management, you wouldn't have a job. Clearly you have no idea about what it takes to run a company these days.

It used to be just the owner and the book keeper were needed to run a company, but not today. Everyone is looking over your shoulder and demanding money, certificates, audits and mediators.

Unions protect the bad employees and give the 90% who are good employees a bad name.

Very discouraging thing to see happen, but the reality of the situation is that if the government bought 3 billion board feet of lumber and burned it, it would hardly raise the price of lumber a nickel.

These corporations make millions of dollars in profits, when they don't make the same amount this year that they made last year, then they cry that they lost money.
YamapoodleDooDoo kiss my... and learn how to spell. One day you will learn how the corporate world really works, untill then perhaps you should keep your yap shut.

Oh great, lostfaith chewed through is straps again.

Oh great, lostfaith chewed through his straps again.

I don't think I make too much money. I am a union member. I have watch my wages go from $6/hr in the seventies to a current $27/hr plus benifits.

In the last 6 to 10 years my disposable income has been shrinking. Pay increase have been around 2% with inflation running higher. The government is not telling the truth about today's innflation rate. I don't know about you, but a lot of my money is spent on food and fuel and we all know where those costs have gone.

Deductions for the pension plan, medical plans, dsability plans and government CPP have outstriped my pay package for the last 4 years. I am taking home less actual money than I was in 2000 and costs are a lot higher.

You should also think about my upcoming pay cut. I am certain that is coming. If not now then in 2009 when the contract is up. What will happen as I make less money? CN Centre ticket sales will drop. Pizza sales will drop. Car sales will drop. Most of the money I make is spent localy. Unfortunately, corporate profits are not.

Union employees make good money, but the benitits come back to the community. There is a lot of current commercial devlopment in Prince George. How many of those buildings will be left empty with pay cuts?

I have never seen a Union hold management hostage. Management signs contracts because they think they can make more money running than not. The companies are about to hold the workers hostage. Do you want a job? Work longer and for less! If you think weekend shifts and 4:30 AM start and finish times are fun think again! I won't even talk bout the injury rates. Maybe we are getting danger pay.

I am 58 and my age 60 retirement is going out the window with my RRSPs. The Royal Bank just lost a pile of moey. How did they respond? They sent me a letter raisng my rates.

THE RACE FOR THE BOTTOM IS ON!! Think about the local effects!

Frank

I don't think I make too much money. I am a union member. I have watch my wages go from $6/hr in the seventies to a current $27/hr plus benifits.

In the last 6 to 10 years my disposable income has been shrinking. Pay increase have been around 2% with inflation running higher. The government is not telling the truth about today's innflation rate. I don't know about you, but a lot of my money is spent on food and fuel and we all know where those costs have gone.

Deductions for the pension plan, medical plans, dsability plans and government CPP have outstriped my pay package for the last 4 years. I am taking home less actual money than I was in 2000 and costs are a lot higher.

You should also think about my upcoming pay cut. I am certain that is coming. If not now then in 2009 when the contract is up. What will happen as I make less money? CN Centre ticket sales will drop. Pizza sales will drop. Car sales will drop. Most of the money I make is spent localy. Unfortunately, corporate profits are not.

Union employees make good money, but the benitits come back to the community. There is a lot of current commercial devlopment in Prince George. How many of those buildings will be left empty with pay cuts?

I have never seen a Union hold management hostage. Management signs contracts because they think they can make more money running than not. The companies are about to hold the workers hostage. Do you want a job? Work longer and for less! If you think weekend shifts and 4:30 AM start and finish times are fun think again! I won't even talk bout the injury rates. Maybe we are getting danger pay.

I am 58 and my age 60 retirement is going out the window with my RRSPs. The Royal Bank just lost a pile of moey. How did they respond? They sent me a letter raisng my rates.

THE RACE FOR THE BOTTOM IS ON!! Think about the local effects!

Frank

Damn good post frankgeoreson!

Well said, frankgeorgeson. Except Unions have, and can, and do, hold Companies 'hostage'. For the simple FACT that Companies HAVE to maintain a rate of profit sufficient to repay the capital costs of their equipment. Generally, those costs have been incurred from 'borrowed' money, and the repayment schedule is based on 'time elapsed'.

If there are no profits, say from the result of a strike curtailing operations, the company can find it not only unable to meet the terms of its existing loans, but unable to secure any future financing that may be subsequently needed.

This is one of the main factors that has led to the continual increase in 'consolidation' in the whole forest industry. And the push for a 'monopoly' position over tenure to the resource itself.

A 'monopoly' is always viewed by Finance as being more 'credit-worthy' than a number of independent producers are. And it is, since it's in a far better position to command a price for its product that will always be in excess of its costs.

As that position is achieved, you will likely see the remaining companies increasingly try to 'contract out' more and more of the actual stages of manufacture involved in turning logs into lumber.

Eventually, the remaining dominant player(s) will control the resource and do the marketing of the finished product, and possibly maintain a 'super-mill'or two of their own that will produce some high volume product at a very low cost. And it's against that 'very low cost' its 'contractors' will have to compete.

This has already happened in many parts of the USA, where Weyerhaeuser, for instance, already contracts out much of its lumber manufacturing to the lowest bidder, but still markets the finished product and controls the log supply.

It is definitely a 'race to the bottom' so far as labour, and independent businesses are concerned. It will definitely de-stabilize and deprive many now still viable smaller communities of their future prospects for prosperity.

And, in so many various ways, it is so completely 'self-defeating'one would think that those who'd 'lead' us would long ago have seen the pitfalls. Of course, and this applies equally to both the BC Liberals and the BC NDP, if they're 'leading' us like "lambs to the slaughter...", well, maybe we should start to question why they haven't?

Do they really serve 'us', or do they just do the bidding of a 'higher authority' called FINANCE?

Perhaps a mill job to the next generation of young people, will be what a mid level retial job is to the current generation. Times change, people will adapt. People will get hurt during the transition period, just like they have throughout history.

I'm not trying to be crass, but there are people all over the place who made decisions to get out of the "mill towns" and pursue other options instead of following in the footsteps of their parents, who were able to make a good living working in those environments. What did they see that caused them to go that way? I can count on one hand the number of friends I graduated high school with that actively work in the forestry industry today.

Yes, we can see many of those people on the streets of downtown Vancouver, (and, to a lesser degree, Victoria), any day of the week). They are the 'homeless'.

We can also see them, if we look when we're in the area, in their hours long daily commute from the outlying suburbs to the downtown core of that big city. Where they 'do' God only knows what.

Live by trying something akin to taking in each other's laundry, I'd say. Since there's precious little there that's 'productive' anymore. But still we try to pack more in, for that type of 'growth', in that type of area, is a cancer that must be constantly fed.

Whatever happened to the old common sense notion that "the solution to pollution is dilution"? Not 'carbon taxes' imposed with one hand, while we continue to concentate more people than any area should ever have into it with the other.

I am a union member, but only as a condition of employment. That out of the
way, in a heavy industry environment wages
acccount for a relatively small portion of operating costs. Maintenance, fuel, parts
etc. are far more costly than wages.
In today's lumber market most companies are only covering the costs of getting the
logs out of the forests to the log decks.
Anything after that is debt. Is it any wonder that we are seeing massive layoffs
in the forest industry? Wait a week, we haven't seen anything yet. Canfor has mostly been concentrating on their northern
facilities, I would hazard a guess that PG will see at least one Canfor mill go down &
hundreds on "temporary layoff".
On a lighter note, we could all go to FT. McMurray, the only place in Canada where the homeless make $47/hr.

Good post detoe43.

I dont' know how solid these numbers are but I have heard that the typical mill in the north sees about 70% of their costs come from logs.

The only problem with making $47 / hour in Ft McMurray is.... you have to live in Ft McMurray. A buddy of mine is moving up there in April. He bought a house, nothing too fancy, probably would be 300 grand in PG.... 775,000 in Fort Mac! Crazy! He is going to make great loot sure.... but.....

PS. I heard one of the Tolko mills that are off for 2 weeks lost 35 trades and production workers during the shutdown. No idea where they went but would guess Gibraltar or Polly Mines?