There you go another rocket scientist that hasn't figured out you have to slow down for curves.....

Well if it was not a mechanical problem then it would most definitely be speed!

Doing 50km pulling super "B"s loaded it leans hard ........There are 2 units that tend to be heavy on the pedal, and they sure are making a bad name for the good operators.

Must be the same guys ,passing each other on Mud river Hill for the whole length, so no one can pass, driving the same trucks,same horsepower, two Kids in the Driver seat?

They should learn to load the wet chips first, then the dry chips.

;-)

My question is: Are these guys being pushed to stay on schedule to the point of having to take stupid chances, or are they just cowboys ?

thereasonableman"Are these guys being pushed to stay on schedule to the point of having to take stupid chances, or are they just cowboys ?"

Load times are scheduled and must be adhered to. There is continuous pressure from the sawmills to get the job done.

Trip rates tend to cause this problem more so than hourly paid drivers.

The turnaround times set by the SawMills/PulpMills are generally shy by about 1-2 hours of the required time needed to complete the haul safely.

This is not only a huge problem for chip haulers, but, also affects the log haulers.

Many hauls are based on ideal conditions and do not factor in increment weather, wait times loading and unloading ect. A trip may take 3 hours longer than normal however, you are still expected to head back and haul your 2nd or 3rd load regardless.

Unfortunately there are some heavy footed cowboys out there, however, most operators are true professionals!

We know the bad ones and as a collective sort them out on our own.

If you see any unsafe drivers take the time to contact their company!

You will need the following info
Unit number or trailer number,
Time and location,
What happened

If for any reason you do not feel that your concerns are being taken seriously contact PG South Weigh Scale.

Under the new Federal Hours of service regulations the shipper" Sawmill/Puplmill" can now be held legally responsible for any violation under the law. Jan 1 2007
http://canadagazette.gc.ca/partII/2005/20051116/html/sor313-e.html

A professional driver wants to be safe and will support the motoring public on getting these turkeys off the road.

What, nobody blaming road conditions?

Posted by: getajob on March 26 2008 8:51 AM
Well if it was not a mechanical problem then it would most definitely be speed!

Doing 50km pulling super "B"s loaded it leans hard ........There are 2 units that tend to be heavy on the pedal, and they sure are making a bad name for the good operators.

First off let me start by saying that I ran super-B chiptrucks for 3 years.
No where in the story did it state it was a super-B.
Loaded super-B chiptrucks can corner at higher speeds than any other truck on the highway due to thier very low center of gravity,trust me.
I have no clue what you mean when you say "there are 2 units that tend to be heavy on the pedal". What do you mean???

Posted by: owl on March 26 2008 9:17 AM
They should learn to load the wet chips first, then the dry chips.

Sorry Owl it doesn't work that way.

Posted by: thereasonableman on March 26 2008 9:47 AM
My question is: Are these guys being pushed to stay on schedule to the point of having to take stupid chances, or are they just cowboys ?

Chiptruck drivers over all, have the safest driving records of any drivers out there.
Most are on schedules but not all and none are ever pushed.

Getajob you are very misinformed. You say "The turnaround times set by the SawMills/PulpMills are generally shy by about 1-2 hours of the required time needed to complete the haul safely."
Thats total BS.

You say "A trip may take 3 hours longer than normal however, you are still expected to head back and haul your 2nd or 3rd load regardless."
Again total BS.

Unless you truly know what you are talking about perhaps you shouldn't be commenting on subjects you obviously don't know all the truth about.

lostfaith
How does 20 years of pulling chips hog and lumber in pg arae grab you for knowlege.
You have 3 years... well lets just say you just are getting your feet wet...so lad any other answers you need feel free to ask.and dont let the water get your ears to wet.cheers

Uhh i clued in i bet your in managment...Never run longs hours? allways on time you for real? Puplmill waits have been as long as 3 hours,loading at timescan be 1 hour if there is no wood...bad roads can cause delays.or do you have the hammer down no matter how bad the highways are? The 2 units i was referencing to are noth hauls and the corner is south of Bear Lk...do u pin that one at 70kms? so ya before you ask if i know what i am talking about be certain that you are. wisdom outweighs hotdoggers.

They will not hold the shipper responsible for Transport Canada violations........it will be the motor carrier aka employer who is held responsible.

The S corner south of Bear lake has a cautionary 80kmh speed sign. To take that curve at 70kmh is nothing in a loaded super-B chiptruck. Never said I never ran long hours, but 12-15 hour days and nights are pretty long. Never said anything about always being on time, I have been held up for various reasons alot of times. However if my shift is 12 hours and I should get 4-5 loads in that time but because of whatever reason I don't, that doesn't mean I have to stay out there for 15 hrs to get the 4th or 5th load. There is another driver waiting at dispatch for my truck and his first load time is the priority. If I am not back in time for him to take my rig then he will take a spare unit. Some sawmills have the capability to pour chips onto the ground as stockpile when the chip bins are full, most mills don't like that as stockpile chips are worth less money. The mills that can't dump onto the ground will have to shut down the mill when the chips backup. When ever this may happen, extra trucks are sent in to ensure it doesn't.
I still don't understand what you mean about the 2 units thing, doesn't make much sense what your saying there.
No I'm not management sorry.
I have had runs that allow you 4 hrs per load and I have very often beat that time and done so while in no way speeding or doing anything unsafe. I have never seen any trip times for any of the mills I've hauled chips or hog fuel from that have not enough time to do it safely. I don't know who you drove for but trip times being 1-2 hours too short has never happened to me.
I've waited 4hrs at times to dump at the pulpmills no biggy I got paid for it. I have waited 3 hrs for wood at the sawmill, no biggy i got paid for it. I have driven 4 hrs and found no wood and had to drive all the way back empty cause noone called from the mill saying they were shut down, no biggy I got paid for it.
Driving heavy trucks is not rocket science, however it is dangerous at times and usually due to unsafe drivers in passeger vehicles. You say you have 20 years experience in the trucking industry and thats great however it doesn't mean you know anything. I drove truck for 4 years in total and never had any accidents, damage to equipment or tickets.
I had to chain up once due to me stopping where I shouldn't have. How about you? I'm pretty proud of what I accomplished as a truck driver but it got old really fast and working the night shift really sucks. Now I have fallen back on the trade I was certified in back in the 80s and make more money in less hours than I did driving. I now get to enjoy my family again. As far as being wet behind the ears sonny, well for all you know I could be old enough to be your father. Heaven forbid

Lostfaith ...

Sorry, that was intended to be a cynical comment about making sure that you know where your centre of gravity is and coupling that with the turning radius and speed in order to know when you are pushing the risk of centrifugal force overturning the trailer.

For whatever reason, the combination of CG + turning radius + speed + tire/road contact/friction + curve superelevation caused the thing to overturn. Physics does not lie. The question is, which was it and should the driver have known through training and experience.

As in all these cases, I am sure that forensic inspection of the scene will come up with an answer to a relative degree of certainty. Comments on here are made with little, if any knowledge specific to this incident. But, its fun bitchin'. :-)

Watch yer language Owl Ya just might offend somebody.:)

Maybe that rollover was from trying to take a 10% cut? Looks like the road did not cooperate!

The new Hours of Service regs can charge the shipper. If it is deemed that driver was over in hours.The old regs only went after the carrier or driver.

So to be clear it is IF the driver was over in hours.

If you still are not clear call Susan Watson NSC in Victoria she wrote most of the regs.
And yes you can corner faster with a b train however my point was the curve at Bear Lk where this happened! 50 is safe more is not....

I heard from someone who works for the company involved that the truck broke a 5th wheel on the corner and that caused him to roll over. Apparently he was going fast into the corner, but that is not unusual for that corner, and no it was not a truck from one of the companies that runs b-trains in town. It was a 53' self un-loader, which have a high centre of gravity. The truck was a convert to chip truck from logging truck, which that company does often with its trucks, and the mechanical problem was with the installation of the 5th wheel.

A b-train however is low, only 4' inches off the road (lower than most cars), and as such has a very low centre of gravity (held down with 60 tons) that will out corner most pick-up trucks and cars on the highway. The only way to tip over a b-train is to drive it into the ditch.

Getajob does not know what he is talking about. If a chip hauler works over a half hour longer than their trip rate time for the day, then they revert to hourly. Working: being the loading and unloading times. The trip rate applies only to the driving time between source and destination and leaves plenty of drive time even in bad weather, although I'm sure a dozen sets of stop-lights going through PG doesn't help.

A log hauler on the other hand typically works a trip rate that includes driving as well as loading and unloading times and therefore is far more likely to try and put their foot into it to make up for lost time. Log haulers don't have on board electronic monitoring of the vehicles operation, whereas all chip trucks are tracked as to speed, over-speeds, brake applications, brake application pressure (sudden stops), RPM ranges (ie high on the RPM's, or low). So truly they are apples and oranges to be comparing as anything remotely similar on contractual positions. Getajob does not know what he is talking about.

Getajob sounds like someone that is intimidated by big trucks and therefore has an irrational fear of them, but tries to justify that fear as a safety issue for others as the resident expert compensating for his own incompetence.

The sign says 80 and the corner can be done at 100 in any truck regardless of trailer (at night). 50 is unsafe as it is 30 below the posted speed limit.

A professional driver would do that corner at 80, and a person that should not be driving would be spiking their brakes to slow to 50 causing hazard for those traveling behind them possibly in a blind spot or just riding their brakes needlessly.

Getajob sounds like he is working on getting 2-guys fired with his 50km stakeout. Trouble is the on-board computers don't lie and if the people he was talking about were really doing anything wrong their dispatch would know about it that day simply by bring that truck up on their computer and verifying the accusation as legitimate or somewhat suspect not verified by fact. I'm glad I don't drive north, because the last thing a person needs is a story teller fitting his story to his agenda on the lookout to make his case.

You b est talk with a few more drivers to understand what trip rates make drivers do. The turn around times are based on ideal conditions and give little or no room to loose time. How many chip trucks do you see pulled over eating lunch and having a coffee break? You don't why? no time!!! Eat on the fly....

And where would you propose a chip truck pull over. I saw one pulled over at Tim Hortons once in Vanderhoof and the cop was writing him a $80 dollar parking ticket for parking on the side of the road. Expensive coffee at 2am. Apparently Vanderhoof makes big dollars doing this. In PG as far as I know there is no place other than the Husky card lock or the Shell in Parkridge Heights where most trucks are allowed through company policy to pull over safely off the road. They are not allowed to stop on the highway for any reason due to the risk of a rear end collision. Most eat lunch while they wait to off load. Some will risk getting caught by dispatch stopping at Tim Hortons on Central or Mowhawk on the Hart. Not many options even if one wanted to have a coffee break. Bednesti was the closest thing to a truck stop anywhere near PG, but they were not run very well and went under. It has little to due with the time on the trip rate.

If anything a good argument can be made that the trip rate should be illegal because the very nature of a trip rate negates the overtime one would make after 8-hours. Canfor should be held liable for this retroactively IMO. That is why a lot of drivers will go home after 2-3 trips and refuse to pull the 3-4 trip because they refuse to work overtime hours for straight time rates. If they wait at the mill they do get paid, but it is not the overtime rate, but rather a straight time rate even if they are on overtime hours, because they are considered trip rate and unless they wait over 8-hours at the mill they are not paid overtime, and even then they still would not be paid overtime for the driving time. Its dumb because someone doing the same job at a mill that pays the hourly rate rather than the trip rate gets overtime for doing the exact same job. You won’t ever see the Steelworkers take that one up though because they are about collecting dues and not about ensuring pay equity between their members.

Hmmmm...sounds like trip times could be somewhat of an issue in some cases.

Eagleone

"And where would you propose a chip truck pull over"?
Most drivers pack a lunch. West you can stop at the mills to rest and do a safety check on units, Kal tire in Vanderhoof, Vanderhoof weigh scales, rest areas , break check ect.

East Rest areas, Purden, Dome dinner, Dome creek works yard, McBride has several places, Te-Jaune weigh Scales ect.

North Rest areas several of them all the way to fort Nelson, Windy Point, Silver Sands, Chetwynd” 7-11 break check at Pine river ect.

South same thing scales, Quesnel, Hixon, Break check near Williams lk many-many places to stop and stretch, kick tires and to check over load securement!

“If anything a good argument can be made that the trip rate should be illegal”

Lets go back in time if you will. Years ago it was all hourly” you got paid for what you did”
In all wisdom some carriers felt that it was being abused and yes i must say in many cases this was true. So.. they came up with a trip rate pay scale. Peace work, Flat rate whatever label you want to use.
So lets assume you got $100 a trip based on a turnaround time” calculated on ideal road conditions.
It was based on 5 hours however you waited 3 at the old Pulp Mill dumpers, THE OLD ONES. Most outfits did not pay wait time so now you are at 8 hours worked what is your rate? Not much is it? So in any case pressure is on to haul your 2nd load and it takes 6 hours... what did you earn for the day? $200 bucks.. divide 14 hours worked the rate is what? Nowhere near what hourly once paid.
Regardless of new or old dumpers wait times still occur and excessive unpaid hours still happen based on the trip rate formula.

This is an argument that has been a major topic in the fibre hauling industry for over 15 years. Trip rates tend to force drivers to hustle faster than those that are paid by the hour and for all hours worked.
Trip rates can create and has created unsafe working environments.

Back to Bear lk I am not looking to get anyone fired just that those 2 units do NOT have Ca-deck or Traxis units in them, as their whole company do not use them! It is not a true statement to say All outfits have on board computers! If you’re in the business then you would know that.
Good outfits have them.. simple and there are a few good ones still around.

A professional will not try to argue how fast he or she can pin a corner but rather what is sensible given the responsibility that he or she is in care of.

Ahh this is a good debate to get one thinking of why we stay in the trucking business.Cheers

Getajob says..."Regardless of new or old dumpers wait times still occur and excessive unpaid hours still happen based on the trip rate formula."

I had never had any unpaid hours for any wait time in the 3 years I did the job. Is there something your not telling that caused you to have unpaid hours?
Another thing to remember is that when a driver keeps beating his trip rate, for example he does his 3 loads in 10 hrs but is getting paid for 10.5, then the employer will usually not pay that .5 when you do have .5 of wait time. I thought it was a fair system when I was doing the job however the long hours for the amount of pay and the night shift every 2 weeks pretty much drove me out of it.

The reason the fella had a roll over was his fifth wheel broke.The truck stayed upright and the 53' trailer left the road and flopped over.
Be thankfull nobody got hurt.
Maybe the reason for the fifth wheel breaking could be due to the frost heaves on our highways and the stresses put on these parts.
Lots of SH*T can happen when driveing big rigs. Lessons to be learned here.

lostfaith"I had never had any unpaid hours for any wait time in the 3 years I did the job. Is there something your not telling that caused you to have unpaid hours?"


If you were paid for extra hours thats great...My point is clear or so i thought,some outfits do not pay the extra time so as a triprate hauler SOME drivers drive faster than they should to get done in a shorter time period....Its not hard to understand what i am trying say here.
Some do some dont pay it ..just that simple.

"Maybe the reason for the fifth wheel breaking could be due to the frost heaves on our highways and the stresses put on these parts."

I doubt it. I have seen truck accidents where the trailers have been turned into pretzels and the fifth wheel couplings have remained intact. They are incredibly strong.

A good friend drives a B train chip truck locally.
He has very long trip times, and sometimes has to worry he maybe completing his cycle time to quickly.
So unless he is delayed by an accident or such, he sometimes drives slowly just to waste a bit of time.
He was told to not break the cycle times as they are set.
So at least a company that operates a lot of chip trucks here in town, that i will leave nameless has more than ample cycle times to do a trip.

Ya the thing with beating your cycle times is that it shows the employer that it can be done in a shorter time than they pay for and they are then inclined to shorten the times.