Just a heads up to anyone that likes to hike. The Ochakwin Creek waterfall is running pretty good right now. It’s the creek that drains off Cranbrook Hill when heading south on Foothills Blvd up the hill a few hundred meters from the run-off catchments just before Cranbrook Hill Road. The waterfall is about 60 feet high and the little valley its in is like an exotic oasis as if one is 500 miles in the bush, but only a 5 minute walk to the city bus stop. Right now the water is really flowing a lot… during the summer it almost dries right up, and during the winter it freezes in cascades, which is also kind of neat.

I think the whole area should be a city park. How many other cities have something like that right in the city? Most people don’t even know about it. Recently land was sold around the top for a house going in as I write, so I would think it won’t be long till the public will no longer have access to this spot either....

To share some of the web sites I visited this week that I think have important information that I think everyone needs to know about....

-------------------------

One of the best pieces of journalism I’ve seen in a long while. It’s a recent Macleans Magazine piece on Israel:

Why Israel can't survive - Sixty years on, the country is facing a choice of two futures: it can be Jewish or democratic -but not both http://www.macleans.ca/world/global/article.jsp?content=20080423_11237_11237&page=1

--------

One of the best most profound and fascinating interviews of all time IMO. Amazing how much these guys had figured out pre-internet:

Ted Turner interviews Carl Sagan (Part 1 of 5)
Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2zMa3unSN8&feature=related
Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acBqqe61WjQ
Part 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dj_MZ6i5Dr0
Part 4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35EROe20kWI
Part 5 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pqO1KFV0S8

---------

The most important news story of our time IMO with huge massive implications for Canada and our Canadian natural resource sector that is stolen by the banksters without ever a shot being fired in our defence. We pay every time we fill up at the pump because of these non regulated Intercontinental Exchange outfits that are not regulated for futures trading... yet are allowed to use speculation to skew the market on things such as oil and food with no oversight. RIP Canada.

http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article4573.html

Why can't people use their ashtrays in their vehicles. They chuck em right out the window right in front of you. Not only is it littering but the habit could start wildfires as it did in the Kamloops area 5 years ago. In Kamloops you take the license number and report them, the cops do go issue a ticket. Should be the same here.

I am fairly new to town, so could someone expalin how the city gave the golf club some land quite a few years ago and now the city is paying 15 million to buy the land back. Seems like a pretty good deal for the golf club. Too bad they didn't look adter what they had. Raise money and plant trees- I am sure the membership could afford it.

This is a response for Trudy, a little late but I couldn't manage a retort earlier.

Posted by: pisspulper on May 1 2008 8:25 AM

Let me humour you for a spell. How is this an international flight? Are we not a state of the US. Our policies and trade are governed by them, not our House Of Uncommons. I would suggest that this is merely a temporary charter flight to facilitate inspection of futher mineral investments. Is PG considered an exotic travel destination for southerners. They must like the high crime rate and particulate laden air. :)

Posted by: pisspulper on May 1 2008 8:27 AM
Oops I forgot the Beetle Kill Bus Tours.

Posted by: trudy on May 1 2008 10:21 AM

If some of you won $10 million in the lotto I'm sure you would complain that the money was too heavy.
Pisspulper, what a sad life you must live, getting up every morning and trying to find something to complain about. How sad that your life has reduced itself to that point.
Try for a moment to understand the importance of trying to establish international travel out of Prince George, if it is not above you, or do you think if you complain long enough the rest of the world will step forward to help you.

Trudy, you are probably not aware that I have been a regular poster on this site. While some of my posts reflect some negativity to some issues, I prefer to asses it as if brushed with some sarcasm, unfortunately I had failed to illustrate that for your benefit.

The comments' intent was not to bash PG, but perhaps that was your interpretation. Nonetheless, one has a right to express one's opinion as much as you have the right to NOT read it.

Your reaction to my comment makes me wonder who has the sadder life.

Mr. Meisner may also have issue with posters comments, their rhetoric, sarcasm, attacks on issues, and retorts to his opinions. But as the other regulars suggested, negativity (sometimes sarcasm) has a viewpoint. Maybe those readers know my style and condone it. Others just brush their opinions in a different format, whether they mesh with your ideological standards or not, hardly is it indicative that someone is leading a sad life.

Mr. Meisner also makes his living offering opinion through this site. We have a choice to respond and comment. If Opinion250 chose to moderate every comment, they would certainly be too busy too offer opinion. Now how fun would that be?

Now if you have issues with any form of media, you could always close your eyes or turn it off.

acrider54...the last two vehicles I have owned did not have ashtrays. I don't think they are standard in a vehicle anymore. I believe you have to order them if you want them. Correct me if I'm wrong anyone who may know. I'm not a smoker so I'm just as happy I don't have an ashtray. You are right, I see it all time, people tossing their butts out the window.

Exactly how much does $10 million dollars weigh? I for one most certainly could manage toting it around, at least for awhile.

Filthy assess (butts) littering the roadside. I can see the cartoon depiction. :)

Posted by: acrider54 on May 9 2008 5:54 AM
Why can't people use their ashtrays in their vehicles. They chuck em right out the window right in front of you. Not only is it littering but the habit could start wildfires as it did in the Kamloops area 5 years ago. In Kamloops you take the license number and report them, the cops do go issue a ticket. Should be the same here.

So people are getting fines because someone said they saw something.
I don't think so.

My rant (first of the day) 05:30 CBC radio news; The 82 year old man in Kamloops hospital who was tasered?
THREE rcmp, TWO security guards, vs. one frail* old man, clutching a knife with a THREE INCH BLADE! Oh my god! those poor cops! they must have to go for post near incident trauma debriefing! By the book coppers, no common sense, no courage, totally gormless! This incident smells a lot like the death of Mr. Robert Jycanski in the Vancouver airport.
(*his daughter says he is frail, in an interview with a reporter)
Very disgusting.
metalman.

the best I can do for your "cartoon vision" pisspulper ......

http://www.treehugger.com/no_butts_3_2_550.jpg

;-)

You are right metalman,it IS disgusting!

Eagleone writes...."Why Israel can't survive"


Isreal won't survive because religion will not allow it too.
Religion is the cause of most of mankinds ill's.

Very funny Owl!! I was envisioning butts perched up along the highway akin to bicycle racks.

Heard this on the news the other day.

Transit cops in Vancouver armed with tasers say they will not tase people for not paying their fare.
But they will tase you if you run away from them for not paying your fare.

Obviously, one has to ask why any patient in a Kamloops hospital is allowed to have a pocket knife in his possession and why the staff did not wait to take it away from him when he was sleeping. And, of course, one has to be in disbelief about the Royal Canadian Mounted Police tasering an ill and confused senior citizen (who was connected to an oxygen breathing tube) into dropping this *enormous* *lethal* weapon which he was brandishing at all of them!

"Religion is the cause of most of mankinds ill's."

I completely agree, lostfaith! The amount of bloodshed and hatred in our history (and present) in the name of religion is astonishing.

"Obviously, one has to ask why any patient in a Kamloops hospital is allowed to have a pocket knife in his possession and why the staff did not wait to take it away from him when he was sleeping"

What is obvious these days, or obvious to some, was not obvious in previous days and a previous social norm I grew up in.

A swiss army pocket knife was something many people carried to file things, to cut things with little scissors, to core apples with the blades, to open a bottle of wine at a picnic and just generally to show off to others how many little gadgets were between those two red plastic covers.

It was not an item one had to surrender. It was not considered a weapon when taken on board aircraft, into court houses, hospitals, etc.

Strange times we live in.

It was a time before tasers and people in uniform who were not educated well enough to understand the meaning of appropriate force.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2008/05/08/bc-kamloops-man-taser.html?ref=rss

Just reading the story .......

"Whether the person is 80 or 20, we are dealing with a person who had a deadly weapon in their hand," Cpl. Scott Wilson told CBC News.

Nothing in there of whether he was in a private room, or whether there was another patient in the room this fellow might have been able to take as a hostage so that he could get the orange juice he ordered .......

I mean really ...... if he was in the room alone, get out, shut the door, and let the guy go to sleep ......

Once more, we need more information .... when will the media learn?????

I have an issue. Why do folks have such a tough time flushing toilets? It is so disgusting to go into a public wash rooms and go to use the toilet and find it not flushed. This is so gross!!!!
I am told by a lady that is a custodian in a downtown facility that it happenes most frequently in the ladies room!!! Shame shame shame!
That is my opinion!!!

"We could not deploy our … pepper spray, because we could potentially contaminate the entire hospital."

oh wonderfull .... so someone has a disease that spreads by air and contaminates the rest of the hospital .... never mind the pepper spray .....

"I am told by a lady that is a custodian in a downtown facility that it happenes most frequently in the ladies room"
Then it really isn't a 'LADIES' room is it?

Not just a pocket knife guys! It was a THREE INCH BLADE! Lands sakes, it would have taken the combined might of Mighty Mouse, Atom Ant, and super chicken to subdue and disarm this dangerous and deranged man! and they only sent in three RCMP! What were they thinking? I am not a big movie buff, or even a small movie buff, although I was once buff, but I remember a movie (terminator?) where they revived a cryogenically frozen bad guy and also a cop to catch him. The cops in that movie of the future were non violent, as that sort of thing had been bred out of us I suppose. The cowardly taser operators of today remind me of the cops in the movie. Maybe that is our future, the cops are trained mediators and citation writers.
metalman.

Did anyone here attend or hear anything from the union meeting last night for Pope and Talbot? There was suppose to be more news today

oh yeah, and the reason people do not flush toilet or through there butts on the ground or litter in general is because they are disgusting pigs with no respect for anyone or anything! Just my opinion... but smarten up! (they should be the ones volunteering for spring cleanup, but I'm willing to bet most of you are not out there, cause once again no respect)

Owl, I just read the CBC story you linked, and learn to my dismay that the man is not just 82, not just frail, not just dragging an oxy bottle around, but he is IN A FREAKING BED!!!!!
I take back my first statement, now I am no longer just disgusted, I am outraged, incensed, and furious! How can those cowards look in the mirror? One post on the cbc site suggested that the rcmp uniform yellow stripe should be moved from the trouser leg to the back of the bullet proof vest, I concur, that would be appropriate.
A thoroughly disgusted metalman.

Ain't it the truth metalman...absolutely pathetic!

I suspect after the 82 year old patient saw the menacing officers arrive he recollected Robert Dziekanski's death and armored himself with a non-stapler weapon in self defense.

I agree about the ashtrays and butts. There is an idiot pig woman who m/ts her ashtray onthe road about every 3 or 4 days at the stop sign where riverview road turns on to Nechacko road. She does this as she waits for the traffic. I saw this happen app 2 or 3 years ago and at the time did not get her plate number off the red car.I assumed that it was a one time deal but was very wrong.One day I will see it again (just missed this am)And when I do her car will be filled with stuff dirtier than cig butts....

Posted by: metalman on May 9 2008 8:23 AM
My rant (first of the day) 05:30 CBC radio news; The 82 year old man in Kamloops hospital who was tasered?
THREE rcmp, TWO security guards, vs. one frail* old man, clutching a knife with a THREE INCH BLADE! Oh my god! those poor cops! they must have to go for post near incident trauma debriefing! By the book coppers, no common sense, no courage, totally gormless! This incident smells a lot like the death of Mr. Robert Jycanski in the Vancouver airport.
(*his daughter says he is frail, in an interview with a reporter)
Very disgusting.
metalman.

Metalman, I not only agree with you 100%, but add that I am sure that I an I alone could have nicely taken the guys knife away, then I would have asked him if he wanted a drink, and gotten him one.

Say some nice refreshing apple juice or something.
To taser anyone regardless of age or for any reason when there is 5 against 1 shows bullying, and also extreme cowardice IMO.

Even if that had been myself with a WHOLE 3 inches of knife, you mean to tell me 3 cops, and 2 security guards are incompetent to handle such a situation.
If so they all need to quit, and go find jobs stocking shelves at walmart or something.
Try getting an area where the items to be stocked are light in weight, we would not want you hurting yourselves say lifting a heavy item like a 10 pound box of lego up onto an extremely high 5 foot shelf.

Maybe you could handle putting vitamin pill bottles on shelves, they are mere ounces each.
Disgusting animals is what that act was....go bully the Hells angels or something if you want to feel all tough Mr.coppers.
Leave the regular people alone, and that includes everyone thats a regualar Joe.
And stop making crappy excuses like self defence when you shoot someone in the BACK of the head to.
No damn way on earth I could shoot someone in the back of the head and say it was self defense, thats just pure BS if you ask me.
I seriously think we need to restructure the police unit on the whole.
I have called the cops twice in my life, and both times it was to report an obviously drunk driver I was following.
I was flat out told once that they had no one to respond, so despite my following said truck for another 20 minutes before my turn off, he just weaved along down the highway, onto the shoulder, into the other lane, and he was never stopped by the rcmp, that day I decided to never call them again for anything.
Either i would dal with an issue myself, or just let it go on, and do nothing....because calling the cops to me is as useless as me trying to sing opera in Russian.....I don't speak Russian, and I do not sing opera either..........

Isn't this a wondeful world we live in??? All of the negativity and complaining that goes on day after day. It would be really refreshing to hear something positive for a change, maybe it would put a different spin on everyones day.
On a positive note, today is a good day, I am alive and healthy! What more can a person ask for?

I agree about religion being the main root of conflict in this world.

It seems the RCMP and law enforcement just don't screen members like they used to. I remeber when I was in school and I spoke with the RCMP about joining(80's), it was pretty tough unless you had very specific qualifications. The reality of today is a bit scary. Try to find competent trades. The scary thing is it is only going to get worse because of the large portion of our population near retirment age.

"It would be really refreshing to hear something positive for a change, maybe it would put a different spin on everyones day. "

O.k. I'll say something positive: I drove the Hart Hiway 500 today and there were only half as many tailgaters and speeders as one encounters usually - and there wasn't even a cop car in sight anywhere!

Eagleone, we have been talking about the falls here at work and no one have heard of them. We will try and get into to see them.

This is the problem of PG and area, we have so many "hidden jems" that should be parks and advertised. Some mentioned some caves east of PG and another great waterfall west.

I finally found the canyon that is just great, but the locals keep it quite as they are afraid of people that would trash it.

Turbocat
I too have followed drunk drivers down the highway and called it in and received the same response from the RCMP.
I stopped at Bednesti one day and happened to get in the middle of a gas and dash. Bednesti called it in and I chased down and followed the perp into PG.
While following this guy with Alberta plates My wife kept calling the cops on the cell and giving them the perps location, etc. This guy was passing on corners and hills and cutting people off all over. Lucky no one was hurt.
The first cop we had contact with was at hwy 16 and 97. If I hadn't taken it upon myself to do what I did, this puke would have gotten away. Why the cops waited for us to drive all the way into town before pulling this guy over is beyond me.
To top it all off, the cops let the guy go after he called his mother in Alberta and had her pay for his gas with her visa.
Never got any kind of TY from the cops.
However the good folks at Bednesti had the wife and I out there for dinner on the house.

If you're looking for hidden gems and amazing hiking around PG I recommend Mike Nash's book "Exploring Prince George", It has guided me to some amazing places.

http://www.heritagehouse.ca/press_releases/explorePG_press.htm

Posted by: sportsman on May 9 2008 11:34 AM
Isn't this a wondeful world we live in??? All of the negativity and complaining that goes on day after day. It would be really refreshing to hear something positive for a change, maybe it would put a different spin on everyones day.
On a positive note, today is a good day, I am alive and healthy! What more can a person ask for?

You have a good point there Sporty.
However some people are absolutely fed up with all the BS that is fed to us on a daily basis and this is how some of us get our feelings about it off our chests.
Maybe someone could start a site here called "Everythings Just Peachy" and forbid and delete any negative posting.
I myself am looking forward to this weekend so I can blast up and down the local rivers in my jetboat looking for blackbears. Spring bear on toast is great for breakfast and I can harvest two if I decide to. LMAO

sportsman ... you want to hear something positive?

Join the optimist club ....

Better still, since there does not appear to be one in PG (please do not look at that as a negative comment, just as a factual comment)

Here are the clubs in BC .... that gives you a start .... hopefully that is a positive thing I did ...

http://www.optimist.org/default.cfm?content=clubdirectory.cfm&district=32

What is it about some people and their dogs? PG is the home to some of the worst dog owners anywhere.

Living in a residential neighborhood, why do some people think it's perfectly ok to leave their dog penned in the back yard all day (and night) barking at anything that moves? Do they not realize that people are at home during the day and would like to have a reasonable amount of peace and quiet?

Talking to the irresponsible owner does no good, all you get is attitude. Talking to bylaw services does no good, they won't do anything about it.

Having common consideration for your neighbours is a lost concept apparently -- when people feel they have the 'right' to let their pet do whatever it wants as long as it's in the backyard.

Hmm my beef is peoples cats wandering all over and ripping up the flower garden every night and doing their do.
At least a dog leaves it where you can se it...

How about our phone service... anyone find it a challenge to get good service since they farmed out the work overseas?

On a good note snow is gone...

Why is the Hart Highway particularily bad for agressive driving?

Perhaps the abitrarily set speed limit is just too low for the natural flow of traffic in that area, making those who are actually following the law the problem?

I'm not defending those who drive unreasonably, nor pointing the finger at those who are following the rules, but maybe something on that road should be changed.

Hi Everybody. Positive Smositive.... I hate pot-holes. I'm embarrassed when my family visits from the lower mainland to see such a shytty town. It's the worst place I've ever seen for pot-holes. Why is it so tough to keep them filled. All you need is a dude with a asphalt truck a few pylons and a shovel. Drive aroud 8 hrs a day filling holes. There's a man-hole cover on Stuart st. near Rainbow park that's set in asphault about 8 inches deeper than the surface of the road. Why not make it flush with the road...no that's too tough. It's best to leave it recessed down so your suspension can take a whopping, slamming, smashing when you drive through it. I e-mailed the city about that one. Did I get a response? NO....

How about the immensely deep and long ruts near the CN centre on Ospika? What's that about? I say we go without a mayor for 6 months and use those funds strickly for road repair. How about getting one of those paving machines that you see on the hwy sometimes. Just run that thing around all the major roads and resurface Ospika, 5th Ave, 10th Ave, 15th Ave, Central, and then move on to other streets that need it. I'd way rather see that then tons of cash poured into a new bridge.

rant over.

Well, the real truth is that religion is not the basis for all wars... "money", in whatever form it takes, is the root of all conflict.

Okay, here's a positive stand for you... I am declaring an immediate STOP to the use or carrying of all electric stun guns, Tazers, or similar devices... put them away at the end of your shift. I'll let you know when you can have them back.

Blessings ;-)

Oh... sorry... one other thing... that little lever on the left hand side of the steering column in your vehicle is purely for "OPTIONAL" use... it is NOT AT ALL necessary to use it when you are going to change lanes or before you attack a corner.

I just realllllllly enjoy guessing at which way you are going to turn...

Goodtimes !!!

Raspberry of the week goes out to the gentleman who hung on my bumper all the way from Ahbau and Rainbow through to Rainbow and Kerry......Yes ....the speed limit through these 2 school zones is 30 k /hr as posted. Guess you don't usually pay attention to school zones. Thanks for unpleaantly verbally my attention to school zones. It must be the warm and sunny weather that brings that stuff out in some people.

RRrabbit writes...
"Well, the real truth is that religion is not the basis for all wars... "money", in whatever form it takes, is the root of all conflict."

You should read up on all the wars we have had in history and see what the truth is before guessing.
Religion IS the cause of all war.

"Why is the Hart Highway particularily bad for agressive driving?"

The speed limit is 70km/h. I talked to the RCMP about this being too low. Answer: It is 70, so everybody will go 80. If we raise it to 80, everybody will go 90, if we make it 90, everybody will go 100, etc.

"...making those who are actually following the law the problem?"

You can't be serious. If one drives in the right hand lane, going the speed limit plus 3 or 4 clicks faster (just in case the speedometer is reading a bit too fast) how can one possibly be a problem when there is another passing lane for those who want to speed?

However, judging by the amount of tailgating that goes on in the RIGHT hand lane, some people obviously want to force others to go faster then they wish to go.

Are those tailgaters going to pay the speeding ticket for you?

Steeliepete: "Hi Everybody. Positive Smositive.... I hate pot-holes. I'm embarrassed when my family visits from the lower mainland to see such a shytty town. It's the worst place I've ever seen for pot-holes. Why is it so tough to keep them filled."

I call them Kinsley Krunchers. After the election in November I will have to come up with a new name...does anything rhyme with Zurowski?

Can you please point us to some sources that support your ridiculous statement, LostFaith? I cannot seem to find anything that indicates that World War One, World War Two, the Cold War, the Korean War, the Vietnam War, the American War of Independence, the American Civil War, the Napoleonic War (need I continue?), were caused by religion.

Also, religion is not a negative force. Atrocities committed in the name of religion are committed by institutions of organized religion.

Okay Lostfaith... point taken... "religion is the cause of all wars" .... but lift your gaze a few levels higher... what do think is the cause/reason of all religion if it is not "money"... ("money" being any shape or form of power, greed, dominance, control, manipulation, etc.)... ??

Blessings....

My mother always told me, don't argue about sex, politics or religion. She was wise because it's a huge waste of time/breathe. It's completely pointless. Instead, debate the complexities of pot-hole dis-repair, aka Kinsley Krunchers. It's far less intense, but still an important topic to discuss.

Oh dear... Steeliepete... talking about potholes in your town is like ... like... well ... "kissing your own sister in the shower while wearing your good shoes without any socks on" ... according to what my Mother used to say.

I'm sure if we just wait long enough... those potholes will fix themselves !!!

Goodtimes !!

Posted by: Lewis Prothero on May 9 2008 3:13 PM
Can you please point us to some sources that support your ridiculous statement, LostFaith? I cannot seem to find anything that indicates that World War One, World War Two, the Cold War, the Korean War, the Vietnam War, the American War of Independence, the American Civil War, the Napoleonic War (need I continue?), were caused by religion.

Also, religion is not a negative force. Atrocities committed in the name of religion are committed by institutions of organized religion.

How about you spend your time proving my statement incorrect if your so sure about it.

Good point Rabbit.

I will gladly spar with you over this matter, LostFaith. However, I will likely not get a chance to do so until at least next Wednesday. Shall we limit our debate to these Friday Free For Alls, or do you wish to correspond via email? I am always available, to you or anyone else, at prothero.lewis@gmail.com.

Keep in mind, my friend, that for this to be a proper debate, you will also need to produce evidence in support of your statements (you seem to have ignored my previous request for such material).

Kinsley doesn't wanna run again IMO cause it sounds like he will be trashed come November. Plus he will most likely be outa town when the airline comes to city hall lookin' fer their $400 thousand. If I had ten million dollars, I would most likely be able to hire someone or two to tote it around for me. One last thing. I was driving my truck west on Rainbow Drive. Starting at the old folks home some kid on a trail bike, was following me closely with another car behind him. No license, no insurance, no registration. I turned left on Ospika, he crossed Ospika and rode down the road. No big deal, eh? Don't get me started with the old folks and their four wheeled electric wheelchairs turning left onto 15th at Ospika. Where are the cops? Grrr.

thanks ben for the soap box,given the nobilty, the clergy,the commoner and the media, we know we fall into the common class but get to use your internet media which is more powerful than the first three estates put together, now if we could only bring back the guillotine for some of the noble politicians and bureacrats we would get somewhere!

I think to determine whether strife which caused a war was primarily for religious reasons or not one would first have to agree on some definitions.

For instance, the war between the two Irelands would, would it be considered as strife based primarily on religious grounds or social class grounds? Can the tow be the same?

How about Algeria? A clash since 1992 between islamic militants and a secular muslim government?

How about a clash with communist countries? Some would look on those countries being atheistic governments. Is atheism a religion? Is non religion a religion? Would a clash between a non-religious country and a religious country be a religious conflict, or one which is in many ways promoted due to the difference in religious zeal?

When a Southern Baptist preacher preaches against communism, is she really preaching against the atheist nature of the country?

A war may not be caused by religion, but it may certanly be caused or furthered by the clinging of the leadership to religious dogma.

The enemy is subhuman since they are not Christian.

Fnally, one needs to determine what is a war ..... I have read that it is 1,000 deaths per year on the battlefield. What about tens and humdreds of thousands of deaths through plain old genocide?

Can anyone post the coordinates of Ochakwin Creek waterfall so I (and others) can find it on a map?

Can anyone post the coordinates of Ochakwin Creek waterfall so I (and others) can find it on a map?

"War is the pursuit of policy by some other means." In other words, "You will believe as I believe ~ or I'll kill you! Oh, and by the way, "Peace on Earth, and goodwill towards men". But remember, "God is on the side of the big battalions", and my army's larger than yours.

Personally, I think religion, as it's practiced, has had quite a lot to do with wars. Since this exchange seemed to start with Eagle's reference to a McLean's article on the choices for Israel, it might be worth noting that the Jewish Zionism, to the extent that it is a 'religion', seems to have had a hand in promoting many wars. From the time of the Crusades on.

It's particularly adept at hedging its bets, which should indicate that its 'policy' is something other than that of the actual combatants.

You know, like "A" fights "B" for the benefit of "C". Who comes out on the winning side, whichever it is. But just what does "C" really want? An itty bitty piece of desert real estate so dry that you almost have to prime a man before he can spit? Or is the real prize ultimately inflicting some particular 'belief' in the superiority of a certain people to rule all others? Might be worth considering before we find ourselves fighting another war we might otherwise avoid.

Re: Israel demographics

My understanding is that the Jewish population of Israel is not in danger of becoming outnumbered by Arabs. I subscribe to MacLean’s magazine and I did not read the whole article because it appeared to be based on flawed data.

The UN and others take the word of their Palestinian sources for population numbers. There has been significant emigration from Gaza due to the violence there. The Jewish population of Israel proper (excluding the west bank and Gaza strip) has a higher birth rate than most western countries. Many Orthodox and religious Jews have large families.

Many Christians have fled Palestinian territories due to persecution. There is a significant Arab Christian population in Israeli cities like Nazareth and many of them would vote to retain the current Israeli borders to protect them from persecution under Palestinian rule.

When Israel fought the war in 1967 and the resulting cease-fire left their troops with the west bank and Gaza strip they did not want the majority of that land, with exceptions like East Jerusalem. They wanted Egypt and Jordan to annex and govern that land but these countries refused. The West Bank was primarily Arab people similiar to Jordan. The Palestinian people in refugee camps have been used as a pawn by their Arab brothers to bully Israel into making never ending concessions.

One source I found to support my opinion is from:
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/Flash.aspx/134668

“The last PA census, conducted in 1997, was criticized by Israel and American researchers, who said the PA overestimated the Arab population of Judea, Samaria, and Gaza by almost 1.4 million.”

http://www.madcowboy.com/

http://www.madcowboy.com/

diplomat - "You can't be serious. If one drives in the right hand lane, going the speed limit plus 3 or 4 clicks faster (just in case the speedometer is reading a bit too fast) how can one possibly be a problem when there is another passing lane for those who want to speed?"

Sorry, but the left lane isn't there for passing people who are going the limit (and especially those who are going 3 or 4 over!). It's against the law to exceed the posted maximum speed in any lane. The left lane has become a haven for those that speed, but he who drives 70 in a 70 zone in the left lane is not in the wrong.

I stand by my statement, the speed limit on the H.Hwy. is too low, making those who want to follow the rules the nuisance- and unfairly so, as they're doing the right thing.

Druidia, as per google earth you can find Ochakwin Falls (don't know if thats the proper name... I don't think it has any other name)

opps hit enter..
54.54.54.00 N
122.49.33.61 W
For Ochakwin Falls

Also if you like hikes to big water falls and are looking for a great day trip I highly recommend Muskeg Falls as a great 20 minute hike to a huge 150 foot water fall with a spectacular view over the valley below. Turn left at Bear Lake on the Muskeg Forest Service Road and then its just past Mertin Road at
54.35.59.41 N
123.17.51.59 W
Muskeg Falls is about an hour and a half drive from town max if your going really slow. You can drive there hike the whole hike, and be back to town in under five hours. If you do hike there do not get fooled by the first small water fall, you'll need to find the trail to continue to where you hear the loud water fall sound... and don't forget your camera. Best time to hike that hike is in about two weeks time because all the snow will be gone, the trees will be blooming, and the water will really be flowing.

My complaint about the Muskeg is that it has the potential to be a world class recreation site and yet it doesn't even have a parking lot on the road side, just an outhouse and a trail that is almost hidden from the road. Its such a shame especially when we have the world class War Falls in McLoad Lake that would make a fantastic rustic circle tour for tourists looking to hike great water fall routes and enjoy the wilderness back country. I drove the circle tour that is on the maps going in the back side of Carp Lake, but it is so over grown that even an ATV is going to scrape all its paint off much less an RV of some sort, but it can be done with a truck, although it really needs to be cleaned up especially when it is marked as a real circle tour on our tourism maps... So a warning that Muskeg Falls is a one way in and out route and no you can not do the circle tour that is on the map unless you don't care about your paint and you own a 4x4, but the road to Muskeg Falls from Bear Lake is very good all the way.

Also some good pictures of these places linked to google would be a great service for this area for anyone interested.

Rambleon I agree 80 is a more appropriate speed limit for the Hart especially for the loaded trucks trying to scrub their brakes for 10km with 60 tons down hill the whole way... at 80 the engine can hold back the load fairly nicely, and at 70 it seems the brakes are getting hot doing a lot more work.

The worst pot hole in town is at the top of Cranbrook Hill Road coming down heading towards Foothills. Its been there since fall and has been filled in with sand a few times, but never a pavement patch. The thing is so big it feels like it will rip off the tire of a full sized pick-up and I'm sure it's damaged my truck.

Nessy that is all fine. If that is the case then Jewish Israel has nothing to fear by granting full voting rights of citizenship to all its citizens whether Christian, Arab, or Jewish. I would argue if Israel was proactive that would be the best thing for their security because once it is a reality on the ground through no part of Israel then the animosity will last generations.

Israel on its anniversary next week needs to realize that its creation on the basis of stolen land for an ethnocentric cause was morally wrong and is in no way keeping with democratic values. The sooner Israel comes to terms with this the sooner the world will live in peace....