Maybe the tone is missed due to the fact that its in print, but do these people think they all deserve $20 - $30 hour jobs? I am a junior accountant and I barely make the top end of that after 4 years off paying for school (and $20k of debt) and 2 years of being paid in the $12 hour range. Good incomes are not a right, they are earned. I think the unions have warped the minds of some people.

That said this is devestating for PG as I think this mill and Isle Pierre may have been the only two mills in the area not to take significant downtime. I sure hope they rebuild rather than shift production to other plants.

Does anyone know how many plywood plants are out there. I think that there is one in Dawson Creek but I think it is Louisiana Pacific.

Yamchargers

$20-$30 an hour jobs are what have been negotiated between the workers and the company. That means that they agree that is what the workers will be paid for their work. You have trouble with that?
Whatever you chose to do with your education is your business. Nobodies fault but your own that you had all that debt.
Perhaps you should have thought about what your end wages would be before jumping into the pencil neck profession.

Good incomes are a right and most all are earned, with the exception of the CEO who earns millions each year for pretty much being no more than a figurehead.
I think the corporations have warped the minds of some people. Apparantly you are one of them.

Louisiana Pacific in DC is not a plywood mill. And you want higher wages. LMAO

Perhaps it's only how I perceive the comment, but it sounds to me like she understands that she was lucky to have what she did.

Good luck to all the workers with whatever is to come, although I think with the way the industry is these days, no one in the forest industry has a lot of job security, no matter what your job is. Might be time to jump ship anyways.

first and foremost should be the concern for the workers and their famiies Lets be thankful noone was hurt. Having worked in a plywood plant for 24 years, I realize the danger of dryer fires. Fast and furious. It sounds like yamcharger is bitter and could use a good union to negotiate for him.

Yamchargers/lost faith; the skill level for those jobs may not be worth 20 to 30 bucks an hour, but, the companies and the unions DID negotiate the wage levels. Deserved or not, that is the status quo.
I kind of agree with lost faith, one chooses ones own profession, usually. And I did not think you were necessarily complaining, you did not come across that way. If you chose a profession that is more stable, cleaner, safer, quieter, healthier, and requires more "book learnin" than a mill or construction job, then all the power to you. Unfortunatly, unless you are in the medical business, you will probably earn less than the folks who went blue collar.
metalman.

It isn't the hourly rate that union workers make that disturbs the rest of us.

It's the fact that they earn it with the absolute lowest levels of effort and the absolute highest level of mediocrity.

Countless hours niggling over lunch break allowances, who should pick up which hammer, which issue to grieve, etc. etc. etc.

The rest of us have to bust our humps for that $20 to $30 an hour, putting in honest days' work for honest days' pay.

Try walking through a pulp-mill one of these days, and see how many 'senior' unionized employees are sitting on their fat bums, complaining about their jobs, and doing absolutely nothing.

Yamchargers, as a jr accountant you think you are qualified to say what a mill worker should make? I don't think so. Why are they not deserving of making good $$$? Oh, because they don't have a degree or they didn't go to college? That kind of thinking is very pompous. I don't work in a mill, I work in an office and trust me I would much rather be in an office than a plywood plant. I am a lucky office worker who does make just a bit more then $20/hr, but lots don't. Mill workers are what drove this economy for years so why can't they make enought to be comfortable. I have a problem w/ you thinking you are more deserving. The work I'm sure is very physically taxing, and probably pretty mundane and you think somone should do this for what? Minimum wage? Well good luck keeping employees at that rate. Mills would be training "newbies" all the time only to lose them in probably a year at most. Why don't you think working in a mill takes skill? You should try it, I would bet my next pay check you would change your mind!

That's quite the generalization don't ya' think Moses? Gee, do you pay their wages w/ your taxes, no. why don't you complain about gov't workers who sit on their "fat bums, complaining about their jobs, and doing absoulutely nothing" because really, that is more your business than mill workers who are paid by the company - not the gov't.

Yamchargers, as an employee of NCP I can assure you we were all grateful for the high pay that we received. We are all wondering how we will replace that income in a town that's been hit so hard already. I think it's in poor taste that you would kick us when we are down like that.

'...why don't you complain about gov't workers who sit on their "fat bums, complaining about their jobs, and doing absoulutely nothing" because really, that is more your business than mill workers who are paid by the company - not the gov't.'

I'm an 'equal opportunity' critic of unions robie - private OR public sector.

Any system that ties an individual employee's paycheque to:

a) their accumulated duration on the job (seniority) rather than their performance, and,

b) what 'everyone else is making',

is seriously f*cked up.

I object to it in the public sector because it wastes my (and your) tax dollars.

I object to it in the private sector because it destroys the competitiveness of our local industries.

I object to it in principle because it's just plain stupid.

This is not the time to argue about unions.
The fact is these people are out of a job.
Hopefully they will rebuild the mill.
I wish these people all the best.

"I am a junior accountant and I barely make the top end of that after 4 years off paying for school (and $20k of debt) and 2 years of being paid in the $12 hour range"

So it sounds like you are only 2 years out of school? Not bad dough all things considered. Here's some advice though, if you go on to get an accounting designation and you're still only making that type of dough after you have more experience on your resume, you can look in the mirror and see who is to blame. At this point in time, you should be making the lowest amount of money you ever will in your career. Sit back and contemplate that in comparison to the folks that just lost their jobs.

As an aside, at the end of the day, it doesn't much matter what anyone thinks is a reasonable wage, the reality is that Canfor and the unions agreed that these jobs were worth that amount of money. Case closed. I feel bad for the folks who have lost their jobs as a result of this, especially since it was a completely unpredictable event. It's got to take a toll the way everything went down. Let's hope that Canfor offers these people support in whatever way they can and that these folks can somehow find a way to bounce back. It's a very tough situation all around.

Yamchargers. That's exactly what you will be paid. No unions no money. The Campbell government wants just that lower wages, no unions and you pay ever rising taxes so the Liberals can make their friends and their corparate friends rich while you are paid nothing. Do you remember the big raises the Liberals gave themselves? Well mister, it's from the low wages you get paid. Join a union and get paid what you are worth.

Jimmy is a union hater, he's probably glad to see NCP burn down. That way he doesn't have to go through the layoff procedure or tell workers to take a drop in pay.

Come on union haters lets get at er.

I hope there is somrthing left out of this mess for NCP employees.

Well Moses, let me be the first to congratulate you for bustin your non-union hump. Well done. Now get a life and have a little compassion for those who have lost their livelyhood - both union and non union - doesn't make a difference when a trajedy like this occurs. have a good rest of your life.

Yamcharger Your a tie.When was the last time a tie made anything that we use.They like to sit back and control money.If it where not for steel toes you would be walking to work in bare feet,bare a$$ed,and sitting on the ground writing with a stick.Education is not what is knocked up to be.Just look at the labour shortages there not in accountants ,lawyers,or government officials as much as they think they are.Try to find a welder,pipefitter,try being a chef I know first hand certified chefs 2yrs out of school making plus 6 figures. but they get dirty and work long hours.I hate to see this happen to anyone it really is going to turn peoples lives upside down. Now does canfor reopen it"s plant in ft nelson.

I have some insight into this.

I worked at Neatherlands Sawmill next to NCP for 6-months before it closed, which was announced after I'd been there for a couple of months. I couldn't handle the repetitive task, so I was lucky and got on clean up and might have stayed there had they not closed... but I got insight into what it is like to work in the death throws of a large mill employing over 200 people (some have hard feelings for sure in those situations).

I also worked for a warehousing company that lost its contract after I'd been there a lot of years and lost 95% of my pension money because the company never had it and the union needed what was left to help those closest to retirement... and that didn't include me. I didn't appreciate that much and it soured me on unions.

I also worked at NCP in 2002-03 for about 6-months working on the lay-up line mostly. That is a job I could not handle even for $25 dollars an hour. I choose to quit and find a way any way to pay my way through school for far less in the way of income simply because I could not work in a boiling hot environment, standing over a lay-up chain covered in cows blood (used to glue plywood), staring at a line of ply-wood going by looking for holes to fill with little pieces of wood. But the job paid good, the people were great, and the benefits were excellent, so turn over was generally low and it could take as much as 20 years just to get on a fork lift. I couldn't wait that long on the lay-up line.

Those people that work at NCP earn every dollar they made through hard work that is repetitive and very difficult to continue to motivate yourself for more. It is not no lazy pulp mill job and I would say is even more difficult than a saw mill job. It takes a patient person with a need for the income to do those jobs IMO.

I now have a university degree and I understand the cost issues involved with that as well. That is a cost of choice to become eligible for bona-fide requirement employment, which now days is restricted through financial means to those with rich parents, scholarships, or an ability to finance through other employment or debt. I guess you can view it as a means to restrict people from joining your profession of privilege and driving down the wages, or you can view it as an injustice that makes you resent other people earning a living wage for doing hard work rather than bona-fide work.

Personally I think everyone that does work that generates value should be compensated for the value they generate in a way that is fair of the value margin for their input regardless of where that transfer equation is negotiated as long as it is above the minimum standard otherwise the enterprise should not be in business. That is how good solid businesses are built and not through discounting the value of your inputs.

If you work for a company that discounts the value of your input, then I suggest you help the market out by finding a company that does value your input and compensates accordingly.

first and foremost should be the concern for the workers and their famiies Lets be thankful noone was hurt. Having worked in a plywood plant for 24 years, I realize the danger of dryer fires. Fast and furious. It sounds like yamcharger is bitter and could use a good union to negotiate for him.

Wow. Union bashing in a redneck town will always bring out the responses.

In a first world nation such as Canada with labor laws and agencies such as WCB the unions have become useless dinosaurs. Unions don't build economies, they tear them apart.

In 5 years all the untrained local labor will be screwed and the tradesmen will have to move to (gasp) Alberta. Its gonna be a mess. And it will all be Campbells fault and the unions will say how they got screwed.

Metalman
Millwrights, mechanics, pipefitters, electricians, carpenters, equipment operators are all worth the high wages.
You have a trade and you reap the benefits.
Like I said these wages have been negotiated.

Posted by: robichal on May 27 2008 5:58 PM
That's quite the generalization don't ya' think Moses? Gee, do you pay their wages w/ your taxes, no. why don't you complain about gov't workers who sit on their "fat bums, complaining about their jobs, and doing absoulutely nothing" because really, that is more your business than mill workers who are paid by the company - not the gov't.

Robichal
Perhaps you could enlighten us as to who and where these no good, lazy, complaining, overpaid and underworked gov workers are?
You know the ones that make it possible for you to get your drivers license, pick you up in an ambulance, fight forest fires, patrol your neighbourhood preventing criminals from ripping you off or killing you, city firefighters and the many many others employed by our gov that help make your life better.

Please remember what you have said here next time you need a gov employee's help.

Eagleone
Sorry but I have a hard time believing you lost your pension due to what you said was the reason for the loss. No one can arbitrarily deny you your own money, including pension funds you have been paying unless they have lost those funds due to bad investments. No union can say we are keeping your money for someone elses benefit.

Yamchargers
You sound like a business owner or a person that was never skilled enough to acquire a good paying union job.
Campbell and all his greedy corporate buddies are on a union busting rampage and it will be the demize of many people that have busted their asses building this province into what it has become.
Corporate greed is what is killing this province not the people that built it.
If not for WCB we would have a very unsafe province to work in due to employers cutting corners for increased profits at the employees risk.
If not for unions fighting for what is really fair in this world, everyone would be working for nothing.
Wake up and smell the bacon.

I will add, at one time I worked for people with the same attitude as you have.
(USED TO)
Now I work for someone with the exact opposite attitude you have and I really enjoy what I do and where I work.
It's great going to work and not hearing my employer crying.

It won't be rebuilt.

lostfaith in 1999 we found out we lost our contract as an agent and the parent company would be taking over keeping some senior employees and outsourcing the regional work we previously did. Same union for both companies, its just the employees that stayed went to work for the new company.

The Mr Assman that owned the agency terminal employing us had our pension money going into a group account managed by his parent company. Apparently they made some bad investments with the money when he lent it or something to another company he owned to purchase a large trucking company out of Alberta. All I know is I was asked to vote for a package that saw a 25% cut in pay and my pension contributions went from $9500 down to $600 so that what was left of the pension account could be distributed to those closest to retirement. Some lost as much as $25,000. My pension for 6-years service was enough to have a weekend trip to Jasper. The new contract that I did not vote in support of, because our negotiator was drunk and I had no respect for him, at the very least saw a new pension scheme set up with personalized accounts with a 3rd party financial institution. Its all the union negotiator could get for us... other then getting us all drunk with our unions dues.

The moral of that story is to never allow your pension funds to go to an account controlled by the company you work for... or it will be abused to make empires for others while you have to find ways to make up for it later. So I moved on to better things because I wasn't going to work for a contract I couldn't vote for even under a new employer.

Later the Assman gutted his union from his parent company and they took a 50% cut in pay (but all the union people were gone), because this was his way of staying competitive in an industry he dominated. Within 5-years his business model failed because he didn't have a dependable work force in an industry that requires that. The Empire paid for with other peoples pensions and jobs was lost and he was back to square one.

Wow,that sucks.
If I understand this right, the company more or less ran off with your pension contributions and the union couldn't do much to get them returned?

Correct. I think the union was able to recover about 20% of the original contributions and a few were only a couple of years from retirement after paying into it for 40 years.

Ok so it was the company that screwed you but you blame the union.
The union didn't steal your money and would have little or no power to get it back for you, would they?

You're such a knob

This ain't the place. You're the knob. How does 20% go to 5%?