Prevent these forest corporations from exporting raw logs out of this country and the problem will end.

precisely lostfaith!

Ya Tiny but it sure is strange how so many people here argue that putting a stop to it will do nothing. They must have personal interests in the raw log export scam that makes them money I suppose.

It starts with the small towns and gradually extends to the larger centres. The domino theory of economic crashes.

Lostfaith/tinyapplecork- what absolutely stupid comments- less than 3% of the logs in BC are exported- none from this area- zero""""""""""""""""- mostly from Private lands on the Coast where their is a huge undercut of Crown wood- are mills are uncompetive and unproductive on the Coast- the highest in the world in fact- No Scam re log exports- no money in at the moment- log exports are away down in 2008-even the USW will admit to this- Do not make stupid posts you piss me off""""""""""""""""""""""""

James: "We cannot sit back and pretend a loss of 1,300 jobs in a town of 4500 is anything but a crisis."

Well then, don't! NOBODY is sitting back, including the Premier, pretending that this is NOT a crisis!!!

James: "We cannot keep blaming it on outside issues."

Yes we can! Like the beetle epidemic and the extreme downturn in the US housing and construction industry, not to mention the federal signing of the detrimental faulty softwood lumber agreement!

Stop stirring the pot with useless misinformation, Madam!

So, what is the premier actually doing, then?

Dogs are you lacking your meds today?,wow what a freak.
Where are you getting your info, lets see some sources yappy.
LMAO, we piss you off? Like we care.

You see that Tiny, dogs is one of the ones I was reffering to.

Lostfaith- must be one of the USW brothers- what are you smoking if you thing exports are the cause of the shut down in Mackenzie- has nothing to with this area at all- tell me where and how many logs have been exported from this region (PG north)- the answer is zero. As Joe Friday said- just the facts.

Tree farm licences used to go to companies if they used the timber to create jobs in local mills in the area where the wood is harvested, that was the law.
The liberals put an end to that law when they first took office. The companies can now do what they wish with our wood, send it anywhere they want. Canfor and Westfraser have spent millions buying up mills in the USA. Why would they be doing that?
There are no tariffs on logs, but there is on softwood lumber. Companies profits go up big time when they export to their mills in the states where the workers are paid less wages than here.
3 mills in New Westminster just closed.
The owners of those mills applied to have the land the mills sat on rezoned to have condos built there. New West city council would not allow the rezoning, so the companies are sitting on land that is worthless to them unless they reopen or sell to another company.
Now the softwood lumber agreement is pretty much a meaningless thing in the life of these companies. They pretty much won't be exporting anything but raw logs in the future.

Dogs you need to go sit at the border crossing and count the trucks heading south with BC raw logs.

dogs you piss me off! If you think there is no export of raw logs from mackenzie and fort st james your absolutly blind. In the Fort a loaded log truck leaves town every 120 seconds for 18 hours per day 5 days a week,every season for years. With no raw logs tied to our comunities large companies with other operations stopped investing in their mills in Fort and Mack,and divert the raw logs elsewhere and blamed the small town mill as uneconomical.With the province still allowing out of province raw log export, there is little doubt multi-national corporations will exploit this discusting job export practice as they stop putting money in the next mill in B.C. and blame that mill for being inefficient.Rest assured it will be alot more than 3%. Not to worry dogs the corporation will find a way to make money for their Wall St investors.Hopefully dogs, you pull your head out of the sand to see it.

"If you think there is no export of raw logs from mackenzie and fort st james your absolutly blind. In the Fort a loaded log truck leaves town every 120 seconds for 18 hours per day 5 days a week,every season for years"

So in very specific terms, where are the logs going to be processed (i.e what mills and their locations)?

Unless they are being shipped to New Mexcio for processing (which I don't think is occuring, but if it is, please provide specific details), I fail to see how ensuring that the logs be processed in the area they came from, will make a lick of difference to the industry in OVERALL terms. The total capacity is not likely to change, it will just be spread around differently. For example, if 500 logs get processed in the Fort and 500 get processed in Mackenzie, why is that preferred to 200 being processed in the Fort, 200 in Mackenzie and 600 in Houston?

It's my thought that allowing processing to occur anywhere in the Province would actually make for a stonger industry overall. Afterall, if there are cost advantages to processing locally, the companies will do it because they'll make more money. Making more money is better for employees, taxpayers and companies. Do we do the same thing with beef? For example, if a cow is raised in Dawson Creek, is it allowed to be butchered somewhere else? What about salmon? Do the fish caught of Rupert have to be processed there? Is all of the oil from the Peace Region required to be refined there? What makes lumber special?

Are we to believe that if the wood had to be processed "locally", that we wouldn't be seeing these mill closures and layoffs? That would be a complete fallacy IMHO.

Trees are a renewable resource. Why don't we get busy cleaning up the mess we have and begin to aggressively planting more. We got to get busy doing something productive. Oh, do you think more trees would help with the greenhouse gas problem? Erosion? Future wood supply, when the market changes along with population growth? Wood is a commodity. Sometimes it's in demand, sometimes it's not. This is not a new concept. Why is everyone so shocked? Chester

lostfaith thanks...

dogs we are entitled to our opinionated posts as are you. I respect your disagreement please respect ours. As long as raw material of ANY resource is allowed to be exported, that removes jobs here and will decrease the ability to create value added manufacturing here. You may as well kiss our economy goodbye.

As for James' comments I expected more from her via concrete solutions rather than blasting the obvious by reiterating what others have said. Taxing raw logs?? Are you mad?!
I would have expected that she and her party would be wooing the right investors to fulfill what she preaches. I am tired of hot air from our politicians...maybe we can harness that energy to the electricity grid and bolster the economy simultaneously?

Instead of the Socialists demanding things all the time, why don't they come to the table with some solutions of their own?

Well NMG as soon as the timber was untied to our local mill in FSJ money was no longer put back into keeping the mill up to date. That company immediatly sent wood from the northern end [Baptiste,MacDonald Lk] of the FSJ forest district to their operations in Houston. The wood in the south end [teardrop] sent to Bear Lake and PG, and has increased every season. Haveing a raw log export is a slippery slope with rail and a super port built in Rupert. Do I hear the famous quote "Houston we have a problem".Make no mistake there is no reason wood cannot be diverted from your town NMG to Rupert and points beyond. An indication this may be happening is when you start to see no re-investment in your town mill, with the accompaning corporate retoric of old and antiquated plant, followed by raw logs loaded on the rail bound for Rupert. Who's plant is it perhaps the corporation should update and maintain, but thanks to untied tenure that is no longer nesassary. I keep hearing the same right wing excuse that it is all global economics for our forest woes. Remember folks we have some of the best forested land in the world, these multi-national companies are not going anywhere, but be careful how we let them profit from our, as a people who live and try and work here, resourse.

When the question of whether NCP will be rebuilt or not is not immediatly answered by Canfor as a definate yes is reason for concern. When we as a province can have forest companies work and profit from our forests but do not need plants to process is reason for concern. As far as the typical right wing global forest economic woes,we all know the forest will be globally profitable again, so why are Canfor not worried about haveing a plant in B.C. for processing. Perhaps one should buy some rail and ship stocks.

-Permit Milligan
-Permit Kemess North
-Cut forestry regs/legs so value added manufactuing enterprises can profit.

"Well NMG as soon as the timber was untied to our local mill in FSJ money was no longer put back into keeping the mill up to date"

And why is that? Why was it preferential to send the wood for processing to Houston, PG or Bear Lake? What did those locations have going for them that FSJ did not? Those answers would help explain allot . . .

As an aside, I don't consider logs leaving the FSJ area and going to Houston or PG a raw log export. That moniker would be reserved for raw logs leaving the Province or country for processing. Since the vast majority of wood being harvested from our area is processed in our area, using the export terminology is extremely misleading. When the average person hears export, they think of goods leaving the country, not being moved a few hundred km's for processing.

I would also predict that the industry is going to change so much by the time that the fallout from the MPB is over, that the export of raw logs won't even be an issue. If we can't continue to supply the wood that is needed, either someone else will (Russia or other jurisdictions perhaps?), or substitute products will be developed. The big concern I'd have if I were a forestry worker with many years left in their career, wouldn't be whether wood from my area is being processed in another town in BC, it would be whether external forces or advancements in technology were making my job redundant. It's a blunt prediction I know, but it's the way I see things going and I don't think there is a lick that the government can do about it EXCEPT look for ways to CHANGE what we produce, how we go about producing it and finding ways to sell it to the world. 2x4's or plywood won't cut it in the long-term and having Carole James talk the same ole rhetoric won't do it in the short-term.

Russia has put a huge tax on log exports and its going up again. The result: manufacturing facilities being built in country to get value from resource.
Are the Russkies thumbing their nose at the global banksters? I hope so.

NMG did you not read my entire post, we the people of B.C. should have control of how our forests are marketed. Corporations have no business manipulating politics for Wall St as this is of no value to the people of B.C. Right wingers will no doubt cry that the number 1 thing politically is we have to ensure corporate profitability.I think we ensure politically the people are #1, the corporation will as you say change so much in the fallout that they will remain profitable. The forest is here ensureing business will remain here, perhaps politics should recognize that and put the people first.

Posted by: dogs on June 11 2008 8:41 PM
Lostfaith- must be one of the USW brothers- what are you smoking if you thing exports are the cause of the shut down in Mackenzie- has nothing to with this area at all- tell me where and how many logs have been exported from this region (PG north)- the answer is zero. As Joe Friday said- just the facts.

Dogs I am not a steelworkers member, allthough I am a very strong union supporter.
No where did I say that the mills shut down because of log exports. So whatever it is you're smokin I would ask for your money back.

NMG writes...
"Are we to believe that if the wood had to be processed "locally", that we wouldn't be seeing these mill closures and layoffs? That would be a complete fallacy IMHO."

If logs were illegal to export they would have to be milled here.

The liberal gov in BC changed the law. Logs used to have to be milled in the area they were cut.
The liberals changed that and now the logs can go anywhere.
Such as to Canfor and Westfrasers newly purchased mills in the USA.
No tariffs on logs like there is on finished softwood lumber products.
A forest corporations dream come true.

Posted by: NMG on June 12 2008 10:33 AM
"Well NMG as soon as the timber was untied to our local mill in FSJ money was no longer put back into keeping the mill up to date"

And why is that? Why was it preferential to send the wood for processing to Houston, PG or Bear Lake? What did those locations have going for them that FSJ did not? Those answers would help explain allot . . .


Simple really, now they can shut down the mill in FSJ, what a cost savings that is.

Anyone that thinks there is only a miniscule amount of log exports out of this country needs to take their heads out of their butts and go count the truckloads crossing the Canada - USA border.

"We the people of B.C. should have control of how our forests are marketed"

Really? Some of these arguments sound more like "we the people who physically cut the trees should have control over how the forests are marketed" . . .

Yes that is exactly right NMG we the people who own the forests should have control of how and who we the people sell our forests. I see you are opening yours eyes NMG not all corporations are for the common good of the people here in B.C., hence the need for restrictions to ensure fairness for all stakeholders. We the people own the sandbox and if the corporations don't like our rules they are welcome to play elsewhere. We do however have some pretty nice toys in our sandbox

"We the people who own the forests should have control of how and who we the people sell our forests"

I agree 100%. It seems like such a simple and straight forward proposition until you start to realize that the citizens of BC (these are the owners of the forest that we are talking about) have significantly different opinions on how those forests should be managed as a Provincially owned resource. These owners include mill workers, loggers, shareholders of Canfor, environmentalists, First Nations groups, "regular" citizens, etc.

You can't just say that only the "owners" that agree with your position get a say in the debate. Truth be told, across the Province there's probably a significant component of the population that would rather see logging shut down completely, that to see it keep going. Obviously the economic impact would be devastating, but that doesn't mean those particular owners of the resource don't have the right to their opinion.

The balance in all of this is the government. They are there to represent the wishes of the people and they have to look at all stakeholders and all of the issues. At the end of the day, if the population determines that they are no longer representing them, the people have the ability to change the government and go in a new direction. I think it was Ben's old saying that the voters are never wrong. One just hopes that people look at what potential governments are offering and that they can seperate the rhetoric from the reality. It gets much more difficult to do that in the face of change and turmoil.

Well said NMG that is a very nice ideology but, even you don't believe anything you just posted. Corporate lobbying is very productive worldwide, hence the formation here in Canada of groups like STRONG in Ontario. Also rallies locally in Mack and Vanderhoof to remind governments of the very ideology you mention NMG.

I am absolutely amuzed by the completely ingored post on this site- first log exports means to a different country not within BC (that is a completely different subject - clause 7) which may be happening in your area. Another post states count the logging trucks crossing the US border- 99.9% of raw logs exported to the US are by barge not trucks( all logs exported to China are by Container) and now rarely by booms(due to costs)- A logging truck cost roughly $115 to $125 to run- to truck wood from your area would be competely economically- most recently I studied a company exporting (yes by truck)wood to central Washington- it took 1 and half cycles to get the truck their and back- two loads every three days- cost $30 m3 plus- economical no= the operater immediately shut down.

"Well said NMG that is a very nice ideology but, even you don't believe anything you just posted. Corporate lobbying is very productive worldwide, hence the formation here in Canada of groups like STRONG in Ontario. Also rallies locally in Mack and Vanderhoof to remind governments of the very ideology you mention NMG"

I haven't a clue what you are talking about lost it all. Are you suggesting that the people cannot change governments and exercise their will in the most ultimate of ways? Do you not recall only a number of years ago when a certain Provincial Government was removed from power, in record fashion I might add, by a populous that was fed up with how they were managing the Province? There is absolutely no reason it couldn't happen again IF enough people feel as though their interests are not being properly managed.

Of course, the main difference right now is that our woes are just that. They don't impact the oil patch, they don't impact mining, they don't impact the tech sector, tourism, etc., and they don't really impact, yet, 90% of the people living in the Province. It sucks for us, but it's the reality we have to deal with right now. In an ironic way, it's sort of like the thousands of auto workers that are being laid off in Ontario. It's just a headline or a news story to us, even though it's ripping those communities and people apart. That's not much different than someone in West Vancouver reading a headline about a mill closure in Mackenzie.

We've got to find a way to deal with it and we do need government leadership to assist us (which by the way I think has been lacking). Unfortunately, we also have to recognize that to the average person in BC, the problems are not yet tangible, nor may they ever be. The solutions are going to have to come from the people and areas where the problems have "hit home" and I personally think that they're going to have to be pretty radical.

The solution is to recall John Rustad and Pat Bell as the MLA's for the communities that have been hurt, so that the whole province 100% understands there is a problem and it is liberal policy. Other than that and its just a voice in the political wilderness.

I agree people can make change through democracy, and your right most of the people are not effected. I do believe that large corporations in this case, also have a voice in government. A case in point being the untieing of timber from local mills for harvesting, this was changed solely from big business lobbying. As this made no difference to the masses. All that happens in government is not nessasary done by the people, yes I can vote for change. Every political stripe has their special interest favorites. Perhaps this example is a calculated risk by government as we don't have enough votes here, and government can make changes for their corporate friends.

I think I would to agree with Eagleone on this.
While we know the government can't "fix" the problems that relate to economics and market conditions as such,the provincial government needs to get more pro-active in actually getting out to these communities and communicating.
Communication is everything when the light at the end of the tunnel is the train coming at you!
They also need to provide assistance and support to the people and workers of these hard hit towns with more one on one dialogue.
Victoria is a long ways off when you don't have a clue what to do next or where to turn.
The squeaky wheel DOES get the grease, and this is where pressure from the provincial government on the federal government would help to find solutions as well.
I was talking to some diehard lower mainlanders the other day and it didn't take long to realize,they really don't have a clue to what is taking place up here in the northern part of the province.
Why is that?
Simple...it's a communication problem and the provincial government is largely to blame for that.
This gives the appearance that we live in another world of less importance than the lower mainland.
If we have to put pressure on our elected representatives to wake this province up to the fact that we are all in this together,so be it.
That's what they get paid very well for.
And in the long run,the crap does run downhill,and northern issues will affect the rest of the province, sooner or later.
Which reminds me...anybody seen the Premier in this neck of the woods lately?