"Minister said programs designed to help people reduce their carbon footprint are more generous to northerners "When I replace my furnace" says Hansen "My rebate will be about half of what the rebate would be for someone in Prince George."
-----------------------------

That is interesting. It should actually be the reverse if it were to be applied equitabley. Here is why.

I posted some information about HDD (heating degree days) on another thread previously. The number is around 3,000 per year for Vancouver and about twice as much for PG. Thus, to heat the same sized and insulated house in PG as in the GVRD, it takes twice as much fuel, given the same furnace and fuel type.

Thus, if one replaced an existing 65% efficient furnace with a 90% efficient furnace, the payback of the "investment" in new technology would be faster the more fuel one had to use.

Thus, the PG furnace investment will be paid back much quicker than the one in the GVRD. By giving the folks in PG twice the money as an incentive, the payback for PG citizens will be even faster.

Or, another way to put it, in this instance, the majority of the taxpayers in BC, who happen to live in the south, are subsidizing the minority living in the north.

This is pure spin.
Can truckers afford to just put a new engine in their trucks at the drop of a hat to burn bio-diesel?
Assuming they are even working that is?
Does he even know what a new high tech engine costs?
Does Hansen really believe that people are going to run out and buy a new furnace if there is nothing wrong with the old one?
Does he even know what a new furnace costs?
And does he think low income families will be able to do this?
Will the government be paying for those furnaces?
And does he understand that winter is considerably longer and colder up here?
Which means we burn more fuel for a longer period of time?
And how much does he think pensioners will care about that 100 bucks every four months if they cannot afford to pay their heating bill at the end of the month,or have to divert food money to pay the bill?
Nice try Hansen,you must really think people of northern B.C. are stupid!

It looks like they might be ..... arguments based on emotion generally do not cut it.

No one is talking about truck engines.

However, if one works 8 to 12 or so hours a day hauling, 500 km in the north is the same as 500 km in the south.

Location from work plays into it of course. I would think that the mass of people who drive to work everyday in the south have a longer person-commute distance than those in the north. For every rural commuter, there are probably about 20 urban commuters. For every urban commuter, there are probably 20 who have considerably further to go than small town urban commuters.

This is a tax grab plain and simple.We have no say in what they do no matter how much we tell them it's an unfair tax.As most of the mill workers in Prince George are unemployed and looking for work it's hard to swallow how this will benefit us as we fill our vehicles in order to look for work.Everything is going to go up in the future because of this tax.It's just one more pressure for us to think about as we are looking for work in this community which doesn't exist.The Government should be there to help us in our time of this economic down turn in the forest industry.But instead the way they are helping us to feed our families and pay our bills is to raise taxes on everyone.I for one wont forget in the next election how they have their finger on the pulse in this province as it seems to me they have their head in the sand on this one, as raising taxes seems to be more important to them as to helping anyone in this province.

Could someone tell me where biodiesel can be bought between Vancouver and Prince George, or between Edmonton and Prince George.

The furnace calculation:

PG

- $6,000 for new furnace
- $3,000 for heating with existing furnace
- switching from 65% efficient gas furnace to 90% efficient gas furnace means a saving of $750 per year on fuel
- with a simple payback (not considering interest) the payback is 8 years.

GVRD

- $6,000 for new furnace
- $1,500 for heating with existing furnace
- switching from 65% efficient gas furnace to 90% efficient gas furnace means a saving of $375 per year on fuel
- with a simple payback (not considering interest) the payback is 16 years

So, it is a better investment to get a new furnace in PG than it is in the GVRD.

It does not take a rocket scientist .... it is virtually intuitive.

When the government imposes a tax, it is a tax grab .....

If you want to hit someone, hit Alberta .... their royalties are a "tax" grab from the rest of the country and the USA ..... they have the "stuff" ... we want the "stuff" ..... why do you think they have no debt in that province? Other than oil, they produce very little. They are hardly the manufacturin mecca of Canada. They make their money on the backs of the rest of the country. And Newfoundland and Saskatchewan are about to follow.

The royalites this province makes on natural gas is more than they make in income from the forest industry.

Correct on the cost of the new furnace owl...but that is assuming the guy who is out of work can AFFORD a new furnace!
So it comes down to pay the mortgage,buy food,or buy a new furnace.
Maybe the money it would cost for new furnace might be the only thing that will get a family through Christmas?
I bet that food and the mortgage will take priority.
If that is an argument based on emotions..so be it...but it is also a fact of life for a lot of people right now.
Seems the government missed that part.
Your argument, while correct in terms of dollars and cents,would only apply in a perfect world and we sure don't have that right now!

The 3 "B's" BS baffles brains. The guy is full of crapolla

How much is all this carbon tax bull costing. It was 8 million just to produce and mail the checks. Look at all those full global warming adds in the paper and on tv. What cost? Just so Gordo can hang with Arnie. Global warming, folks you are being sucked in, the science doesn't work. Folks with all this baffle gab doesn't it make you suspicious, just a little bit.

Whats lost in all these calculations is that they are taxing something no one can see, very few can measure and at the end of the day if BC slipped into the Ocean, GHG would still rise. On top of this futility the science is not settled. Al Gore is a con, and our governments has swallowed it whole. There is no glory to being the first idiot jumping off a cliff.

Owl," Other than oil, they produce very little. They are hardly the manufacturin mecca of Canada." what about cattle , wheat, pigs, lumber, pulp , oil, gas ,coal stanly cups, first rate universities...etc. go pound sand if you think Alberta owes the rest of this country. There is more common sense in a Alberta county than this whole province.

This Carbon tax is piss poor policy and the timing couldn't be worst. Like the gun registry of the 90's, this will turn out to be a gong show with no environmental impact. It dosen't take a mental giant to see that.

"the guy who is out of work "

happens to many people some of the time .... has happened over a century in this country, sometimes more than at other times, sometimes regionally, sometimes nationally ....

It is part of life in our kind of economic system. If we want to change it, there are countries who have, more or less. But it means more socilization, which many people do not want in North America.

So, the only way to work it is to buy insurance, which would be quite expensive, or save more for a rainy day, which of course is difficult if one lives a lifestyle taht is dependant on paying for stuff now in the future. The days of saving $20,000 for a new car and then buying it are virtually gone, even for the upper levels of income. Many of them even buy goods on credit, just that instead of a used car at $3,000, or a new car at $18,000, they buy a new car for $40,000 to $70,000 or so.

Of course, if you work in the health field, rather than forestry, the likelyhood of being out of work are more remote, unless you work in a clinic in a town that is about to shut down. Then you have to move and get a job in an area which is growing. As in, good bye Mackenzie. Penticton, here we come.

"It was 8 million just to produce and mail the checks."

I think someone ate mine before it was delivered ..... :-(

dow 7500 ... take a look at the budget ... recall Alberta before oil, especially before the oil sands. They were an agricultural and partial forestry dependent province. I still remember my gade 6 geography quite well. The Leduc fields started the oil craze. The came the 1970s oil crisis ... they put money away for a rainy day, and that money was all depleted when oil went back down in price ..... 10 years ago they still did not pay down their debt.

So, get some history .... now is different from yesterday as far as the economics go. Canada is doing so well because of the oil. If Alberta did not have it, they would be running deficit budgets. If Canada did not have the oil to send to the USA, their trade balance would be negative rather than positive. The fact is, we have a petro dollar in Canada.

BC has a revenue of about $1.4 billion from forestry resources and about $1.7 from natural gas resources.

Alberta has over $12 billion in resource revenue income, primarily from natural gas. Ovr the next decade that is expected to turn around.

Revenue has increased by an unbelievable 18% from 2002 to 2006. It is because of what is underground, not what is between people's ears. For that you have to go to Ontario and Quebec which have survived not because of natural resources, but because of human resources.

Open your eyes to see where the resources are.

"It dosen't take a mental giant to see that."

Tell that to the countries that are becoming the wrold leaders in development of alternative energy. The ones that are beating the North American car makers once again in manufacturing. The ones which are able to produce products to sell the world over without too much fear of the countries with low labout rates. They have out sourcing, but not to the level of the USA for instance.

Some jurisdictions on this continent are finally catching on.

Owl is basing his assumptions on folks having goods jobs that pay well.

There just aren't that many.
The carbon tax changed the rules for people that live out of town and are beyond transit facilities.
I live in Vanderhoof and am not afforded the choice of another transportation alternative, and I do not have the money to just chuck out on a new furnace.

And has anyone paid attention to the cost of furnace oil lately? How much is it up from last year? 40%? I'm wondering now who can afford to fill their tanks let alone buy a furnace...

Exactly votemike,and that is what keeps getting missed in the rhetoric.
Guys like Colin Hansen are spin doctors sent out onto the hinterlands of B.C.to sell this money grab, and the biggest mistake we can all make is to buy into it!
The B.C. government is banking on us doing just that!
If we do,then we only get what we deserve!

Being taxed to heat your home with fossil fues is only going to incent more wood burning appliances.....how is that going to reduce carbon emissions?

If the oil bubble bursts, as some predict (although I can't see it) this country is gonna be in a heap o' trouble.

I am still curios if our government realises how much effect the price of fuel has on our economy. Is this attitude of "suck it up" in the name of carbon emmissions reductions a well thought out move?
How will our natural resource sector compete when we have such huge distances to transport our goods?
When the price of oil goes up, our dollar goes up and while this helps us pay for our oil at a near par rate it hurts all other exports. When world oil prices go down ,so does our dollar and this is good for other exports but bad for the cost of fuel to us.
It is therefore likely that oil prices are going to effect us about the same regardless of where the price goes as the petro dollar factor seems to have a solid place in our future.
There is no kidding ourselves that oil consuming industries which have high freight distances can expect no relief from moderate changes to the world price.
This is truly a serious set of checks and balances for farming, forestry and mining and the farther from the market the worse it gets.
Add to this the pressures on the consumer and the more remote the consumer, the more they will be effected by the cost of freight. These people will need increased income or they will have a reduced standard of living and less disposable income. Quantity and quality of our northern workforce will suffer from this as wage rates need to go up when they likely will have to go down because of the added costs from the price of fuels.
Lower worker productivity because a southern migration will likely occur and this will also effect the cost to industry.

Colin can explain to me why I would want to replace my furnace when the chances for my industry surviving this disaster are slim to none. Industry broke ,no jobs, worthless home, must move before I freeze to death. My home doesn't need a furnace it may need a wrecking ball.

Owl, I know that its easy to look at Alberta with envy and say its all oil. If they had none, they would be a have not province. I don't need a history lesson from you. I lived it, up and down, but with or without oil, there is a spirit of optimisim that has always been the hallmark of Albertans. All you need to do is read most of the posts on this site to see how different the attitude is between here and Alberta. They know a carbon tax is waste of money with no environmental impact. So they won't do it. Common sense dictates that for them, not David Suzuki.

There was some interesting comment on Cross Country Checkup last Sunday, from some scientist or professor or other who pointed out that we are never going to change to lower carbon emissions on our own. He states that as long as our fuels remain 'affordable', we will continue to use them. It is his, governments in general, opinion that this 'carbon tax' is necessary, and in fact relatively mild, that the concept is being eased into, not hurting too many people or businesses. Apparently we all need to give up our big trucks and snowmobiles, 4 wheelers, boats etc. Okay, some of that may be true, but it sure seems like those who agree with the whole concept live in an apartment in Vancouver, take advantage of mass transit, and do not even venture out to the North, so theyt expect those of us up here to match their lifestyle. After all, food comes from the grocery store, lumber comes from Home Depot (who uses lumber anymore?)
Just sign me "tired of the b.s."
metalman.

"They know a carbon tax is waste of money with no environmental impact."

Okay, so I am allowed a comment as well:

They know a carbon tax will eat into their profits and they have so much money that there is more income to the province from non-renewable resources than there is from income tax so that the money from those resources allow them to spend more, thus, if they want to get the same effect as in BC, their tax on carbon based energy would have to go up to say 20%, which sitll makes it considerably less than Europe.

So, I can't prove your statement is wrong and you can't prove my statement is wrong.

Wanna do a survey of Albertans?

What Europe pays in carbon taxes is irrelivant. The lack of any positive carbon reductions through the tax is relevant. To say we need to put a price on carbon is bizaar. What do you call $140 oil, free carbon?

I am all for a survey of Albertans. What do you think should be the question?

"so theyt expect those of us up here to match their lifestyle."

I don't think they expect asnything of us. Do you expect anything of anyone living in Atlin? When do you think about people living in Atlin? They have no mass transit. They have no oil refinery. They have no Home Depot.

People in Old Crow, Yukon, for instance, go to watch the plane come in and unload the "stuff" ordered by catalogue or over the net these days. Imagine the price of milk there. According to the linked document it was $9 for two litres at the time of writing.

Air freight is $1.28 per lb ... so figure out how much a sheet of 4 x 8 gypsum weighing about 40 lbs costs in Old Crow.

Do you give a "chit" about that??? ... of course not!

Everyone has their problems and complaints. We would not be living if we wouldn't. Get over it and adjust because it ain't gonna change. Work on solving the problem and strat realizing we are all partr of the problem and we will all have to be part of the solution.

http://www.vgfn.ca/pdf/living%20in%20old%20crow.pdf

"What Europe pays in carbon taxes is irrelivant"

Not in my book. All the people in the world need an energy source to survive. Currently we are gluttons to oil. If one part of the world uses very little because they do not have the methods of transportation we have or they decide to encourage the use of alternate energy, it means everyone in the world that uses oil benefits from that by not depleting the resource as fast.

So, we are not doing our part. Me. Me. Me ... like a little kid screaming at a grocery store wanting an ice cream.

----------------------

the question is easy. Something like this.

1. Gasoline prices have been going up considerably in the last few years. At waht price poer litre would you begin to try to conserve gasoline

1. by activities like grouping errands run with the car
$1.50/l
$1.75/l
$2.00/l
$2.50/l
$3.00/l

2. commute through car pooling
$1.50/l
$1.75/l
$2.00/l
$2.50/l
$3.00/l

3. buying a more fuel efficient car the next time I buy a car
$1.50/l
$1.75/l
$2.00/l
$2.50/l
$3.00/l

4. going on fewer driving recreational outings or going on recreational outings closer to home.
$1.50/l
$1.75/l
$2.00/l
$2.50/l
$3.00/l

I refuse to feel guilty for my way of life.
At the end of the day BC's carbon tax will amount to a fly on a camels ass on global carbon. PERIOD.

Now you may get a warm and fuzzy feeling by not driving to the lake this week end. I don't. You may be willing to become an economic martyr and slit your throat at the alter of Al Gore. I won't.

This is a global issue and untill there is a global response, this half baked carbon tax will needlessly punich BC, and it's people.

Without taking the carbon tax into account, I will not be eating out at our local restaurants any longer, going to a movie, driving to get an icecream cone on a hot day, buying that new whatchamacallit, visiting my parents as much as in the past, or all kinds of other things I used to spend my money on.
All due to the high price of fuel, which was a major expense in my life when it was less than half the price it is now.

Sorry to all the people that will be losing their jobs because noone can afford to pay for the little extras in life that employed so many people.

Agreed dow7500!
Which is exactly why I am going on vacation as planned!
It may cost a bit more,but I am sure there will be a few bargins along the way, directly created by the fact that tourism is hurting because of the carbon tax!
Motels in the U.S.are begining to offer deals and even gas coupons!
If we all just rolled up and climbed back in our little cocoons,we would really have a mess on ourhands!
And you know what else?...I am willing to bet going on vacation as planned is exactly what our government in all it's great wisdom expects us to do...resulting in many dollars in their greedy pockets!
Do they want us all to stay home?
No, they sure don't, but they may have neglected to mention that little gem!
Drive less they tell us!
Sure.
They would much rather we keep spending inspite of their carbon tax/money grab!
(I will however be avoiding B.C.Ferries!)

And as of 11:30am. today,the price of gas in Nanaimo including the "CARBON TAX" was $1.51.9.

Owl brought up a town called Atlin as well as Old Crow.
Ya gotta wonder what these little communities are paying these days.
Diesel generated power.....ooowie!
Is this power a blended rate with other BC Hydro rates?
I wonder what the northern living allowance is going to be set at when people refuse to move to these very remote and extrooooordinarily expensive communities?
Old Crow for instance or worse yet many arctic communities which either barge or fly in their fuel and have to stockpile a years supply. Forget global warming ending their way of life, the price of fuel will do it first.
Why would a teacher move there or any other government worker?
We are in for a world of rapid changes, rapid and very drastic for some.
I'm guessing that even the industrial revolution will seem like a slow uneventfull thing compared to this.
All the debate about what consumers will or will not do is what I believe only a small part of this whole issue.
If no rabbit is pulled from a hat in short order and prices continue to rise at this rate, we cannot be far from a world economic collapse.
Maybe our global economy will become a very local economy very quickly.

We all go down the drain very soon.
Tax or no tax. We'r doomed.
We'r gonna have to live like our forefathers did.

HD I had only one father. Speak for yourself.

We were very poor and could not afford a father...so my mother used to bring one in on Tuesdays and Thursdays....we called them "uncle"....
:-)

Okay .... that was the deep belly laugh for the night Andyfreeze ..... thanks for that!!!!!

ROFLMAO ANDYFREEZE!!! Thank you for making me chuckle today. :}~