So if your kid is on a slippery slide with drug addiction and they want to improve them selves by wanting support, I guess going to Haldi Road is not a good place to go.

What is this place really going to do to your property. Is it going to attract active criminals to the area, likely not.
Is it really going to impact property value, it might if you keep raising a stink about it. Are you guys afraid of the stigma attached to the area, if this is the case, is it our problem, or is it a personel issue.

Grow up, this empty building is going to be used to help people improve themselves. Embrace it and be proud of it.

If it was your 22 year old daughter trying to improve herself, do you want her thrown out at a remote camp or closer to a neighbourhood environment. Would it bother me if it was in my neighbourhood.

Merry Christmas you NIMBY a-holes.

you are missing the point…the city needs to follow laws and procedures just like everyone else and ramming stuff down your throat when you are paying their way should be challenged..the city never expects any challenge to their decisions only a little grumbling with a short term memory and then they can continue on their way..it is time they realize who their bosses are..I think the term the Haldi neighborhood used was NIAMBY not NIMBY..check your facts

LOL. You both don’t get it. The City is breaking it’s own rules and forcing this Recovery Center down their throats. This goes beyond the NIMBY label you give everyone out there. They don’t want it for many reasons and the City is ignoring them. What I don’t get is why is this place all renovated and ready to go before it’s been approved? Who is paying for all this and who will pay for all the water they are going to have to truck in?

There are many empty schools out there so why this one when they know there is water and septic issues?

Why not downtown? They restored the Astoria to be low income housing for women. They could put it the National Hotel. Oh nevermind the City of PG doesn’t want it in their backyard either! They are trying to clean up downtown.

If this center was allowed under the zoning set out in the OCP, it would then be a case of NIMBYism. This is clearly not the case.

One of the reasons that an OCP is put in place is for an orderly and planned development for the city and should set fairly stringent guidelines for council.

The point here is not what the building will be used for but the fact that council has rammed it through against the wishes of the residents and against their own guidelines.If special interest groups can sidetrack this process then that is a slippery slope.

Shari stepping aside for fourth reading on this is laughable, all the heavy lifting is done in the first three and fourth is a matter of making sure all the i’s are dotted and the t’s are crossed.

Another Shari comes to mind Shari Lewis…I guess that would make Ms. Green Lambchop and you don’t have to look very far to see whose hand is making her talk.

He spoke, If you don’t live there you have no business or any say in the matter. Haldi residents don’t want this facility in their neighbourhood.

You say…”Would it bother me if it was in my neighbourhood”
Did you mean to say “wouldn’t bother me”?
If thats what you meant thats fine, thats your right. It’s also the right of those in the Haldi area to not want it in their neighbourhood.

Rocky grow up!!! What are you 4?

How easy it is to throw out a label (NIMBY) without looking at the big picture.

He Spoke: “Is it going to attract active criminals to the area, likely not.”

Gee, I’m sure the residents are reassured.

He Spoke: “If it was your 22 year old daughter trying to improve herself, do you want her thrown out at a remote camp or closer to a neighbourhood environment.”

Why does it matter?

As many have made the point, this is being rammed down the residents’ throats against the OCP.

If you can casually throw out the NIMBY label, you have to respect the residents’ rights to appeal the decisions that are made and follow whatever legal channels they might have available to them.

The OCP is a non-binding document intended to guide (not prescribe) development objectives. It’s entirely appropriate for Mayor and Council to make a zoning decision that runs counter to the OCP.

First the Haldi residents were opposed to the development because of the ‘water issue’. When that was resolved they latched on to the ‘OCP issue’. The real issue is that they don’t want recovering, female addicts in their neighborhood because they perceive themselves as better than they are.

That deserves an a-hole designation in my books.

So where should it go, in whose neighbourhood????? Its got to go somewhere. Putting it downtown is not a solution, the purpose of the recovery center is to get the people out of the element that got them there.

Do we just sweep these people under the rug, and trample on the rug. Is the attitude, going to be your an addict and made that decision a long time ago, and now you will die from it, your a burden on our society, and you must die because of your poor choices. No there are no recovery centers in this city.

I am capitalist pig, I will likely never be accused of being a bleeding hearted liberal. But I do have a heart, I also believe that we need to give an opportunity for those that wants out of the prision of drugs, a avenue. We all need to stop being selfish and give up a little bit. It is Christmas after all, it is not a time to ask for things, it is a time to give.

The mayor and council are just puppets in a play on this…..look behind the scenes and see who is pulling the strings.

He Spoke…..The Government had a 18 bed alcohol/drug treatment centre attached to the hospital for over 35 years. So if you take 18 people per month times 12 times 35 you would see that some 7560 people received some sort of treatment. In addition they had, and still have a detox centre at the hospital. So we had some facilities for treatment.

The real question is (((and this seems to be missed by most people))) why did the Government close down this facility.

If one were to do an in depth analysis of what is taking place, along with information under the F.O. I. act, you would probably find out who is driving these projects, and how much Government funding is available.

As an example we know that the BC Government purchased the property at Baldy Hughes for $3 Million dollars and gifted it to the treatment centre at Baldy Hughes. In addition they receive approx $600,000.00 per year in Government funding from the Ministry of Housing, or whatever (Coleman).

In any event Im sure that at some point we will find that there will be significant funding for Haldi Road from the Provincial Government.

This issue is about why the Government/City/Treatment Centre personel, chose to locate this facility on Haldi Road, even though they knew that the residents in that area did not want it there. Its not like they didnt have other options.

A lot of the true information on this centre will probably come out during the court case. ((Hopefully))

Good for the Haldi residents for fighting for what they believe and the hypocrisy of the city. We also had a treatment center forced down our throats in our neighborhood and yes it has brought all kinds of less than desirable types to our neighborhood for our children to see…Put them in the neighborhoods of those bleeding hearts who oppose it and see how that goes.

The world needs more love and fewer court orders.

. What you are saying makes zero sense! The Element of location does not change the addict’s recovery. Some people are all over the map and think that removing a person from down town 10 minutes away solves the temptation for buddy to give crack to the addict. Most addicts are sent 3500 km from the place they lived and away from the circle of friends. This centre is not going to help our own addicts unless Smith has an addict exchange program in mind. Smith would like to think we are all a bunch of idiots and we don’t know anything about addiction

This centre will not benefit our down town addicts one bit. And if you think it will, being 10 minutes from the VLA, tell me how.
If this centre gets the green light from the courts it will have a zero success rate. All this thing is set up to do is benefit the owners and increase our taxes

We are being hit with a 5% property tax increase witch my tax is already $5,000+250=$5250 and a $50,000 decrease in property value. Haldi residence do not owe your local addicts a GD thing.

Posted by: curmudgeonscurse on December 21 2011 10:22 AM
The world needs more love and fewer court orders.

No what we need to do is legalize all drugs. Reduce the cost to users. Put a tax on it. With all the tax proceeds build recovery centres away from areas were people should have the benefit from being good drug free model tax paying citizens. Good model citizens have rights too you know.

Wow.

First off what do you people who are against this center happens there? Do you think there are drug dealers roaming the property waiting to sell the patients their next fix ? It is not a place people go to to keep on drugs..it is in place to get them off the drugs. You make it sound like they will be randomly roaming around the Haldi area with freedom to rob, steal and molest anyone who lives in the surrounding area?

You go to a center like this to get “clean” not to get drugs..

We better keep these clinics to a minimum.. I know I would rather have a bunch of junkies on the streets robbing and stealing from me and my family and friends rather than getting help.

Rocky says…”The real issue is that they don’t want recovering, female addicts in their neighborhood because they perceive themselves as better than they are”

Really?

Judging by some of the comments on this issue I can really see the need for more drug treatment centers and for many of the posters to just say no to drugs. Some of the assumptions made here by those in favour of this center being put into operation in someone elses back yard are surely drug induced.

P-Val

You have not read the post by the looks of it. Replied to the bleeding hearts posts. The problems need to go further from Downtown if that is the argument. There is also a reliable rumour at city hall the covenant 219 about the well being capped. The proponent has been told it will be removed in 12 months after the smoke settles. Then instead of them trucking water the city will force the existing home owners with well to build cisterns and truck their water????? This is not just about helping addicts. And you are so narrow minded some of you make yourselves look foolish. Shari Green already knows the covenant will be removed after 12 months. On the QT of course. It is not reasonable to truck water for this to be viable for 30 bed treatment Centre with a green house, artisan bakery. The school used 2500 litres and recovery centre 15000 litres minimum. To have sewer lagoons is also not viable in City limits for a centre of this size. And we have a right to have fresh air. Not a stinky health hazard. We bought out here for a reason.

It will be interesting to see if the court even considers this. The City can’t pass a rezoning that is contrary to the OCP and the courts will overturn if that is proven to be the case. Unfortunately for the residents everything that city staff and the folks at L&M contend is that it is consistent with the official community plan so it is an uphill battle to try and convince the courts that the city misinterpreted the very plan they authored.

The rezoning still stinks of insider influence and an old boys network at work. It was rather convenient for scary sheri to declare a conflict only hours after the public hearing and only when pressed by Ben to come clean on her relationship with Marshal Smith. It will be interesting to see how much money came from the project backers for her campaign. The same goes for the other candidates. Just how much money was spent by the folks behind this project making sure they had supporters elected to Council. And if Sheri has a conflict how come Frank gets to vote? Doesn’t he have the same conflict as sheri as one of the project backers signed his nomination papers so they must have a personal relationship
http://princegeorge.ca/cityhall/elections/Other%20Documents/2011%20Election%20Candidate%20Nomination%20Papers%20Everitt.pdf

“The OCP is a non-binding document intended to guide (not prescribe) development objectives.”

“The City can’t pass a rezoning that is contrary to the OCP “

So, which is it legally?

nice post Different Perspective. There is another example of Shari Greens lack of leadership.

Tom sits on the board of the recovery centre. Shame on you Frank. Your morals are pitiful. I am disappointed but not surprised after reading the web site.

Once the campaign contributions are released it is sure going to be fun to play connect the dots:-(

“We also had a treatment center forced down our throats in our neighborhood and yes it has brought all kinds of less than desirable types to our neighborhood for our children to see” – what neighbourhood? – I would like to go through there and see what kind of undesirables are there. Are they like the undesirables that mister $5000/yr taxes is worried about. You know, the people who can’t afford $750,000.00 homes? Personally I wouldn’t want to live out there anyways. Too many yapping dogs and snobs.

Frank Everitt –
Are you sure there are non of your union brothers living in the area? :)

P.OED

You seem to be an expert quoting numbers out of the air or the orfice.

But to claim a “zero success rate”. Wow, that is quite a statement.

You have your opinion, and I have mine. Hope your little rant does not cost me more tax money

yep, its a good thing we dont allow free use of guns in public. Or all you “Not in my neighbourhood” people will be shooting addicts on sight, since they are less than humans.

“The OCP is a non-binding document intended to guide (not prescribe) development objectives.”

“The City can’t pass a rezoning that is contrary to the OCP “

So, which is it legally?

From the City’s website:

‘An OCP is a statement of objectives and policies to guide decisions on planning and land use management within the City.

Although the OCP does not commit or authorize a municipality to proceed with any project specified in the plan and does not have an immediate effect on property rights (eg. existing zoning regulations will continue to apply), the OCP can have consequences that may increase the regulatory burden of developing a property (eg. Designation of development permit areas).’

The OCP is a development guideline only.

The legal petition by the good-hearted people of the Haldi area is doomed.

Vancouver residents want the Mayor and Council to be:

Accountable

Proof is needed for claims of treatment effectiveness. Specifically the Fraser St. models need to be presented to the public with measurements that mean something – sustained abstinence greater than 6 months, competitive employment, and relapse rates. Just to say “It’s treatment” is not good enough. Is the treatment effective? Show effectiveness data. Prove that with this housing communities won’t see increased crime rates, drug dealing, police incidents, and used, dirty needles and other drug paraphernalia in parks and resident’s yards. Remember drug dealers make house calls so moving addicts out of the Downtown Eastside won’t disable the supply.

The majority of patients and programs can agree that stopping substance use, obtaining and keeping a job and eliminating crime are legitimate achievable goals. This means that treatment providers should be willing to accept responsibility and accountability for achieving and maintaining these goals in their patients – at least during active treatment. Indeed, if patient and programs cannot be expected to achieve these goals even during drug treatment, it is reasonable to question the value of treatment for either the patient (addict) or society.” 1

The majority of patients and programs can agree that stopping substance use, obtaining and keeping a job and eliminating crime are legitimate achievable goals. This means that treatment providers should be willing to accept responsibility and accountability for achieving and maintaining these goals in their patients – at least during active treatment. Indeed, if patient and programs cannot be expected to achieve these goals even during drug treatment, it is reasonable to question the value of treatment for either the patient (addict) or society.” 1

•At 2 weeks into intensive drug treatment (6 1/4 hours per day, driven to and from treatment, lunch provided), 20% were using drugs.
•At 10 weeks approximately 40% were using drugs.
•At 20 weeks, 60% were using drugs.
•At 25 weeks 70% were using drugs. 1

There was no difference in employment between those in supportive housing and those who had no housing. 2

Almost 1/3 did not complete treatment. 3

How Effective are Current Drug Addiction Treatment Programs?

Confused?

Reading the local newspaper, listening to your local Addiction Medicine Specialist, or the incessant bleating from Vancouver talk radio hosts that “we just need more addiction treatment programs!”

Well just how effective are community drug treatment programs?

The future for Metro Vancouver looks like what the United Kingdom (UK) has been doing since 1998. The Labour Government of the UK has doubled the number of “Harm Reduction” facilities 1, implemented drug courts and has increasingly referred offender-addicts for treatment.

“At a drop-in centre in Hounslow, an unglamorous suburb in West London, clients (as addicts are respectively known) are relaxing with candle-lit acupuncture. Downstairs they can pick up syringes (in different colours, to avoid accidental sharing) and other paraphernalia to smoke or shoot up more safely. A centre over the road prescribes and dispenses methadone, an oral substitution for addicts.” 2

“Yet there are hints that such thinking is falling out of favour. After it emerged that as few as 3% of those in treatment actually shake their habit …” 3

“yep, its a good thing we dont allow free use of guns in public. Or all you “Not in my neighbourhood” people will be shooting addicts on sight, since they are less than humans”

Please read my last post above—–^

He spoke-you should research. It will shock you from other countries who track the stats. Canada has no records or stats because the goverment funded programs have an almost zero sucsess rate. The programs that the patient or family pays for have a much higher sucsess rate. And Haldi will be a goverment funded. Do I need to say more?

P.OED so you know exactly who they will be helping in this clinic and the method or methods of treating these people. You must the way you are spewing out all these figures. They mean nothing at all but make you look like a government with twisting the numbers to suit your needs.

As for you little whine about “we bought out here for a reason” so what? As for the “stink” of a lagoon… what do you do for sewage.. or does your sh*t doesnt stink..but it must because you are stinkin up this board.

P-Val
Alarming when one does the math on P.OED stats and apply that to the Haldi Centre.

Based on full occupancy.

30 women x $4000 = $120,000 per month.
3% success rates = $120,000 cost per month to the tax payers for one patient to be successful?

P Val

My poop is contained as you should contain yours. Get educated on the whole picture instead of your narrow mind. Thanks

This is just another case of a business (with the help of council) steamrolling over the residents of a neighborhood. The only difference that addicts are involved in this case and not empty pop bottles. On that basis I hope the Haldi residents prevail.

“Shari Green already knows the covenant will be removed after 12 months. “

Any proof of this?

Palopu – Do you know how much it costs for the beds at the old Nechako Centre? Was it near the amounts the manager of the women’s centre mentioned $4000.00 a month? Still trying to find out why it has gone up from $900 to $4,000 in less than 6 months……not inflation. Oh yes, because of the government participation….

I notice the residents named “costs” in the order..If the order does fail will the residents be paying the citys costs?

Rocky – the OCP was enacted to the zoning bylaw itself most recently in 2007

1.1 City of Prince George Zoning Bylaw No. 7850
A bylaw of the City of Prince George to establish and provide for zoning and
other development regulation in order to implement the Official Community Plan,
thereby fostering the economic, social and environmental well-being of the
community.
WHEREAS Council may, pursuant to Part 26 of the Local Government Act divide
the whole or part of the municipality into zones, name each zone, establish the
boundaries of the zones, and regulate the use and development of land,
buildings, and structures within each zone;
AND WHEREAS Council has given notice of its intention to adopt this Bylaw and
has provided an opportunity for persons who consider they are affected by this
Bylaw to make representations to Council at a Public Hearing pursuant to Part 26
of the Local Government Act;

If you did not want the OCP included you could have spoke up before it was adopted into the zoning bylaw through the Public Hearing process

Posted by: interceptor on December 21 2011 3:14 PM
I notice the residents named “costs” in the order..If the order does fail will the residents be paying the citys costs?

If Haldi wins City pays, if city wins then Haldi pays legal fees and cost of court. Capped of coarse. It has a limit.

In response to “interceptor”‘s post. A friend in the development business tells me that a rezoning that is in-consistent with the OCP is illegal but of course that outcome would be dependant on two things:
A) A legal challenge of the rezoning (someone actually calling them on it), and;
B) A judge hears the arguments on both sides and decides in favour of the neighborhood.

The first step has occurred, the second is unlikely.

There have been numerous such challenges in other jurisdictions but few are successful when you have the authors (staff) saying the rezoning is consistent with the intent of the OCP.

Also Rocky, bylaw 7281 (OCP) states:

Legal Basis for Official Community Plan
The purpose and content of an OCP is formally outlined in the Local Government Act of British Columbia, Chapter 323

(non-relevant part omitted)

Once an Official Community Plan (or simply the Plan or Community Plan) is adopted as a bylaw, all future land use decisions made by Council must be consistent with the objectives and policies outlined in the OCP.

Different Perspective – this may be true if the city staff used the correct chapter of the OCP in the first place and it was just a matter of interpretation

In this case they used urban chapter to justify rural. Pretty much the same as using industrial section to justify putting a sawmill in the vacant lot beside the new Duchess Park School

Wasn’t the owner of the old Nechako Road School going to do the same thing a few years back? Never made it to council due to…?

The Hart Hwy Elementary was for sale too…?

Well, I hope the judge throws it out for being selfish.

The issue has nothing to do with Official City Plan. The neighbourhood is using that as their scapegost because the facility is willing to truck in the water now.

This would mean that if the Judge throws out the OCP, they will desperately find something else. They simply believe that drug addicts are meant to die, and they are not worth making any atempt to save them…. well at least not in their neighbourhood.

Maybe someone should put a pig farm next to city hall on the old Norgate property. I wonder if that would fit in with the OCP.

P.OED

In reading your statements, with in 25 weeks 7 out of 10 people were back at it.

Meaning that 3 out of 10 were drug free for half a year. It may not sound like much to you, but for those three people, I am sure they feel that there is hope.

Well, at least I managed to get you to admit from zero success rate to 3% success rate.

Of course you will twist the number which everway you please.

Duffer, I think that lots set aside for PAC.

Gus, when did Haldi Lake School shut down.

Poed… remember… 76% of all statistics are made up on the spot.. guess you are trying to make it up to 77%.

SO Poed.. why do you want to abandon these people that want help ?

I am sure your family is filled with upstanding citizens who have never needed help from anyone else. How about open your heart a bit to those humans who are not the high and mighty like yourselves.

*facepalm*

P.Val

It appears we are the only two that wants to stand up for those that can not. The rest is too concerned about property value.

Haldi Lake School got shut down in 2002, it has been empty for close to a decade. Now we have a user…. great.

Noboy likes the facts to much. I have a niece has relasped 14 times. Gets clean for three months because you get ammuned to the drugs and it becomes to expensive to feed the addiction. So she uses the system. Recouvery centres are a business and do not turn her way. She is first nation. You make it sound as Haldi was the last location on earth. Please

Noboy likes the facts to much. I have a niece has relasped 14 times. Gets clean for three months because you get ammuned to the drugs and it becomes to expensive to feed the addiction. So she uses the system. Recouvery centres are a business and do not turn her way. She is first nation. You make it sound as Haldi was the last location on earth. Please

Once an addict always an addict. Just ask a recovering Alcoholic.

Recovery centers seem to be the flavour of the month with another small center (6 Beds) going up in Beaverly. There must be good money in this type of venture otherwise people wouldn’t be willing to do this.

So imagine that all those people making huge dollars on the backs of the addicts. How sick is that?

Addiction is an addiction, regardless of drugs, alchol, smoking. Very seldom does one succeed the first time. How many times does it take to quit smoking.

Actually no on the backs of the addicts. The addicts dont normally pay for it. They are just the vehicles, the tax payers foot the bill.

According to P.OED, the success rate is one in 33 people. It sounds low, but that one person can make a difference in this world.

Posted by: He spoke on December 21 2011 4:27 PM “Haldi Lake School got shut down in 2002, it has been empty for close to a decade.”

False: the building was purchased, rezoned residential and was converted to a residence…it did not sit empty for the entire time from 2002 to 2011

Also to note, if the lagoons were indeed set up for 9,000 litres a day currently and a family was using it would they in fact not be almost empty?

It is an evaporative system and if it has the capacity to evaporate 9,000 litres a day and is in excelent working order as L&M Engineering states, does that mean the family was using more than 9,000 litres/day? Poor Jack…

Thank God that He Spoke does not run our City or Government.

There comes a time to have priorities on tax money. This whole deal is very smelly. Right idea, wrong location and wrong funding. Should not be paid for by grants or tax payers.

Instead of the city using input from and consultation with the affected neighborhood this appears to have become a one-sided demonstration of the big hammer on a small thumb tack situation.

What happened to compromise?

Just recently (during the election campaign) big speeches were made about the desire of elected officials of getting more input from the citizens!

Good idea! But now we already have a first lawsuit against the city materializing!

How sad is this? I am impressed by the reality of some citizens actually acting on their objection to (as they perceive it) having this jammed down their throats.

There is another thing being jammed down (virtually!) city residents’ throats: Tap water contaminated with hexafluorosilicic
acid (sodium fluoride) in a form of mass medication.

Fluoride is available everywhere, in some foods and in every brand of toothpaste on the market! There is no need for this mass medication method of FORCING every person who drinks water (nobody can survive without it) and showers with it to be an unwilling guinea pig of this long term experiment.

97% of B.C. is already fluoride addition free – we are the last large community holdouts!

Hopefully a group of citizens will get together soon and put a stop to this chemical contamination of our pristine aquifer water by seeking an injunction from the Supreme Court of B.C.

Here it is again.
The school was shut down in 2002 and according to a School District #57 website article dated Feb 8/2000 there were 82 students. (The school was built in 1978 for the price of $537,000 according to the Hansord Report – Provincial Government.)

The school in its last 2 years had water problems and water was bottled in for the students and was closed down. Look at the school district for information of this.

This was before any talk of OCP’s and with the school district/city/neighbourhhods on what to do with the old schools. So this arguement cannot be used.

To my knowledge there was nothing about informing the public the school was for sale.

It was bought for around $170,000 – $178,000. The building was purchased around 2004 by a private citizen in the local security business, rezoned residential and was converted to a residence.

The seller and buyer knew of each other according to the elderly woman that was at the garage sale selling – as she also mentioned that it was going to be turned into a centre for women. This is when the Haldi Road people found out about the centre.

The residence was then bought in 2011 by a # company – Brian Fehr and Gregg Woods for approx. $500,000. Since the sale – various upgrades have been done inside and outside the residence before the zoning was finalized. There appears to be no Building permits on the CIty website for this residence/property in 2011

To date of course someone can correct me if I am wrong – No one has been residing in the residence since the recect purchase.

People do your homework and get the facts…Sheesh

He spoke … as slinky wrote, Haldi Lake School was shut in the fall of 2002 along with 44 others across the province. Thsi was apparently the largest school closure in BC history at the time.

As slinky wrote also, the school was purchased by a private party and converted to a residence. The individual who lived in it moved out of town recently.

The application to the city as it came to Council in September for first reading stated that the society who would be operating the facility would be leasing the property from the owner listed as a numbered company with Craig Wood as an authorized signator.

If you have not seen the conversion of the school to a residence, here is a video on youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NT83fzhU2l4

There are also several properties around PG which have a number of other amenities appropriate to such a facility. Remember, a lot of work still has to go into the Haldi Lake property to convert it for use by up to 30 residents and staff.

Here is one that was/is for sale:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKvloo54eso&feature=related

I am not sure whether camp Elkness is for sale. In some ways that may be less expensive to convert and has similar lake frontage as the abvove “executive” residence.

He spoke says…”They simply believe that drug addicts are meant to die, and they are not worth making any atempt to save them”

Whoever you are you’re nuts!

http://princegeorge.ca/cityhall/mayorcouncil/councilagendasminutes/agendas/2011/2011_09_19/documents/BL8362_report_MERGED.pdf

That links to the original documentation in the Council package fot the Sept 19/2011 meeting.

*facepalm*

X2

“It appears we are the only two that wants to stand up for those that can not. The rest is too concerned about property value”

It appears you two are a couple that could care less about others and what they want for their neighbourhood. You two and others like you have no say in what happens in someone elses neighbourhood. Go away, you don’t live there. You post here trying make the Haldi rd residents look like they want these people to die. That isn’t whats going on here. You’re insane!

This is an appeal with respect to a case in Victoria which may be similar to the local case
http://www.rrocss.org/pdf/Factum_on_Appeal.pdf

This is the original hearing in Chambers which gave rise to the above appeal

http://www.rrocss.org/pdf/2011-03-16_Proceedings_in_Chambers.pdf

This is an article about the case.
http://www.viccity.ca/v2/news/7155/Controversial+Vantreight+housing+project+overcomes+B.C.+Supreme+Court+challenge

It will be interesting how the case here will go. Essentially, the City is the decision maker and unless there is an error in law, no judge will second guess a Council’s decision.

A Municipal Board, in my opinion, would have powers that a judge would not have/invoke since the Board is an instrument of the province as is a municipality and can look at intent.

Gus – I agree a Municipal Board would be the best thing, but it is not available for the Haldi Residents. Win or lose some facts stay the same and that is this lawsuit appears to be their only option of letting the City know they feel there is some form of unjust. It is a sad day and will continue to be this way unless a Municipal Board is adopted. There is no other recourse for citizens and all levels of government are more and more aware of it everyday……..

Other facts appear apparent that the residents are not against a facility, I bet many can honestly say it is the spiderwebs of politics and the politicians.

It probably comes down to the fact of how all this was done that has more people frustrated with the “systems”.

I can’t blame them though. Like Palopu mentioned “This issue is about why the Government/City/Treatment Centre personel, chose to locate this facility on Haldi Road, even though they knew that the residents in that area did not want it there.” The City knew of this project before May 2011.

Don’t forget Human reactions are fight or flight – the neighbourhood decided to fight with the only tools that are available to them.

Win or loose I think this is a start for them to make it loud and clear to the City that people are fed up. Funny how the ones that try following the proceedures are looked at as the bad guys by some, when some of the bad guys get away with it.

Well said guesswhat.

Just a note, There are a few more spots in the province that are also currently looking at setting up centres. Fort St John is one of them. Feel free to search for the rest of them yourself. One may want to look at why the Liberal government is spending all this money………don’t forget they have shut down other government facilities down due to the high costs and looking at various fundings for the private sectors. Only thing I still cannot understand is how the price goes within 6 months from $900 to $4000 a month for one bed unless you cannot get enough public funding and donations…don’t forget the “in kind” also….

Palopu – your figures are darn right close :)

http://www.bclocalnews.com/news/125223039.html
The centre is run by the New Hope Recovery Society, which also receives operating funds of $100,000 through provincial gaming grants and up to $676,000 in support recovery funding from the Ministry of Social Development.

The province has taken over operation of the Baldy Hughes Treatment Centre and Therapeutic Community. In December, the province purchased the 26-hectare site southwest of Prince George property for $3 million, and provided $277,000 in annual operating funding from BC Housing.

The centre has been rocked in recent months by the departure of several of the founding members of the board and staff.

Executive director Marshall Smith resigned suddenly on March 4. He is now working with a local group seeking to start a similar treatment centre for women at the old Haldi Road School.

here is a question for the Haldi road residents

I don’t know if it is conincidence or not but other people that left Baldy Hughes around the same time are involved with the Women’s recovery Centre? Just asking.

http://www.midislandrealestate.com/news/page/5/article/36306

Here is a question for the Haldi road residents:

I don’t know if it is conincidence or not but other people that left Baldy Hughes around the same time are they involved with the Women’s recovery Centre? Just asking.

http://www.midislandrealestate.com/news/page/5/article/36306

So it does answer one question, this was in the plans way before May 2011.

Here is a question for the Haldi road residents:

I don’t know if it is conincidence or not but other people that left Baldy Hughes around the same time are they involved with the Women’s recovery Centre? Just asking.

http://www.midislandrealestate.com/news/page/5/article/36306

So it does answer one question, this was in the plans way before May 2011.

Posted by: He spoke on December 21 2011 3:57 PM
Well, I hope the judge throws it out for being selfish.

The issue has nothing to do with Official City Plan. The neighbourhood is using that as their scapegost because the facility is willing to truck in the water now.

This would mean that if the Judge throws out the OCP, they will desperately find something else. They simply believe that drug addicts are meant to die, and they are not worth making any atempt to save them…. well at least not in their neighbourhood.
——————————————-

Would we Haldi residence take it to the Supreme Court of Canada based on what? You sound like Smith. Ram it down the thought of neighbour hoods. Just like the owner did in Vanderhoof airport when building his hanger without a building permit.

And if you disagree you are a killer of a person suffering from addiction. Laws apply to all as to the people addicted to drugs and ignore the law. Lead by example is the message to you folks who lead with power and money. You are not exempt. The court is a place where law should apply to rich, poor and all in between. You are messing with a family’s homes and the home is the castle that we are king of. If City hall wants to mess with this then cut our tax to zero and then City hall can do what it likes with out our blessing as it is trying to do.

So what exactly is it you are afraid is going to happen. I have heard a lot of inuendo, but I have yet to hear from someone from the area who will spell out what they see happening if this center goes ahead. Do they honestly think it is going to attract crime and drug users to thier area that will be wandering around? If so, cite examples of this occuring in other neighbourhoods where centers have been put in. Is this a case of the perceived notion that property values will decline because a center is put in. Again, cite where this has happened in any other neighbourhood. People are against the anti-center people because they come across as selfish, snobbish people who havent spelled out clearly thier “legitimate” reasons why this center shouldn’t go ahead.

But wrote: “So what exactly is it you are afraid is going to happen.”

I do not live anywhere near Haldi Lake Rd. so I hope that my response is not seen as a NIMBY reaction because it is far from that.

I would think it is the unknown.

So far, most of the facilities which have been built in North America have not been built in the middle of a neighbourhood.

Typically they have been built in locations which have some special aesthetic values such as views, water facilities, etc. Places which promote relaxation, comfort, well being which promote the pleasant moments in life. They need to be welcome places both aesthetically and emotionally. Anything that counters that can affect the recovery no matter what the actual support program looks like.

Certainly there are also some addiction recovery centres which are located in denser urban areas. In those cases, they are typically found on the periphery of the neigbourhood adjacent to the arterials and collectors which serve the entrances to the neigbourhood. Those are also the dominant location for other multiple family types of housing such as apartments, neighbourhood motels, etc.; facilities which have more interface traffic with the transportation and other services required to support such higher density housing. The planning rationale for that is well founded on the “quietening” principles to reduce traffic and slow traffic down in such locations so that people can enjoy the privacy of their own homes. One can see in areas of downtown cities in the whole western world where higher density developments have been introduced in second and third generation buildings (west end of Vancouver is a good example) how the traditional street pattern has promoted increasing traffic and the method to decrease the effect of that change has been to first introduce speed bumps and eventually redirect grid patterned streets into crescents.

As far as the work of the centres themselves, including locating them in the “right” places, one has to remember that this is a work in progress when one looks at it from the highest level. So far there is a reason why centres are located where they are and why most look like and are developed in traditional house type structures.

We seem to be entering a new phase which appears to me to be a combination of an increased incidence of people who have such addictions, an increased recognition that these addictions exist, and increased interest in dealing with the addictions, and an increased interest in removing the treatment from the public realm and putting it into the private realm but supported by public money in the hopes that efficiencies can be found in a free market enterprise.

So, we have cities who are used to dealing with governments when it comes to introducing such centres into the communities and who are used to dealing with zoning for fewer such facilities both because they were larger and thus fewer of them. Generally, cities are unprepared, is my observation. City planners can plan for the known, tried and true. With an unknown they have problems, as do City Councillors. None of these people are typically experts at the issues, if any, involved with such recovery centres. We are all guinea pigs, that includes the people who purport to be experts in running such facilities.

So, are we alone at this? Of course not!

Here is an article from Edmonton that is a little over a week old “Do addicts belong in your neighbourhood – Edmonton plan to house homeless poses tough questions for residents, councillors”:
http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/Staples+addicts+belong+your+neighbourhood/5821063/story.html

“Would you be willing to allow the government to build housing units for homeless people with mental health and addiction issues in your neighbourhood? On your street? Next door to you? I’d have many concerns and hard questions if such a development were planned for my street. Many of my neighbours would certainly be against it. Rightly or wrongly, they’d fear for their safety or their family’s safety.

“But that means permanent housing will have to be found for the people hardest to house. Mental health professionals have a name for these troubled people — “dual-diagnosis” — meaning they have psychological problems and also are addicts.

“The problem comes when the city tries to put this housing, known as Permanent Support Housing, in residential communities. The downtown neighbourhoods that so far have most of this housing are quite rightly saying they’ve got enough. If their area is going to transform, it needs more market housing, more young professionals, more young families, not more treatment facilities and social housing.

“Dr. Peter Silverstone, a psychiatrist at the University of Alberta Hospital, is pushing hardest for the creation of the centre of excellence at the Alberta Hospital site to treat dual-diagnosis clients. Silverstone says THE BIGGEST PROBLEM FACED BY PSYCHIATRIC PATIENTS IS BEING STIGMATIZED BY FEARFUL PEOPLE.”

And there is the rub with this proposal. Neither the City nor the proponent have done their due diligence to locate the recovery centre where it will not be stigmatized by fearful people. To me, the proponents have shown that they do not understand the first steps needed to implement such a program. Bad start!

In the meantime they have upset a significant number of people and may just have driven some to drink. And I do not say that as a joke!!

“the proponents have shown that they do not understand the first steps needed to implement such a program. Bad start!”

Delve into this statement a little deeper and look at the motives of the proponents, if they are altruistic then you can say bad start but if they are monetary(as I suspect) they could not give a flying frig about the clients or the residents.

Thanks Gus for the report. Very well put together. It shines a proper light on the situation at Haldi Road.

Now my two cents – I do not live in the Haldi Road area as well. But I share their concern. Mainly this.

A man’s/women’s home is their castle. It is usually their biggest personal financial investment and the people of Haldi Road have the right to protect their investment. This Women Recovery Centre will effect the values of homes near that area because this centre changes the very nature of the neighbourhood. Our new Mayor Shari Green and company, do not care about the citizens that live in the Haldi area and have demonstrated that by manipulating their way to have some special interest group get as they wish. At the end of the day, is this centre a benevolent gesture to help addicted women or an opportunity to pad someone’s wallet? This controversy is so sad especially at the beginning of a new council and mayorship, I think “Shari Green” has to go. Is impeachment possible?

http://www.halifax.ca/snow

In the interest of thinking BIG ….

The service standards for Halifax Regional Municipality are:

– ROADS: 12 hours for main roads and bus routes, 24 hours for residential and rural streets

– SIDEWALKS: 12 hours on main arterials, 18 hours for school and bus routes, 36 hours for residential and rural streets.
*During a storm, plows will pass Priority 1 streets every 3 hours.”

*During a storm, snow clearing equipment will start “cut-throughs” for residential street access after 10cm.

A true winter city after my own heart. ;-)

Sorry … too many windows open ….. LOL

Thank you gus and cheetos for recognizing what Haldi rd folks are trying to get across to everyone. I do live in the haldi area and have many concerns. Why should I have to prove that the value of my home will decrease or that crime will rise. I have lived here for over 20 years. It should be up to the proponent and the city to prove to me that it will not. They are the ones that want to change the character of our neighbourhood. It is up to the proponent and the city to consult with the neighbourhood if they truly want to be as open as they say they do, but they have not. I truly believe this is a business venture, one that will be sold to the provincial gov. for a profit and the current people involved will have lined their pockets, and moved on to another project. Just like Baldy Hughes. But that is just my opinion.

Greed trumps altruism. How do I know? Just look at the rest of the world.