No standards in the world will change the fact that Enbridge has a record of ignoring such standards!

“industry standards” are not necessarily up to our standards.

that’s good news.lets get the pipe line built.

Well, very clearly both those standards and the policing and enforcement of those standards is woefully inadequate. Pipelines fail and spew toxic oils on a regular basis despite the standards that are supposed to have been followed. Perhaps, before approving the Enbridge pipeline, we should have a spill free period of ten years to prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the so-called “standards” are being followed and are adequate to protect the environment and our health. If that is not possible, as is quite clear, then perhaps the standards should be changed to ensure our safety and the protection of the land.

Who cares what Harris thinks? He will be enjoying his fat cat pension far from Prince George. More billions for government to squander with no accountability and the environment ruined.

“billions of dollars in economic benefit to both B.C. and Alberta”

Too general.

1. construction period
2. operating period
3. proportion to each of BC, Alberta and Canada.
4. proportion to the companies transporting the product.
5. proportion to the companies and countries processing the product outside of Canada.
6. Loss of opportunity amount per annum for not processing the product in Canada.

I thought this is an environmental review. But, I am happy to go to an economic review. That would take it to creating a Canada wide energy policy.

So, with respect to environment and safety, are we to understand that there are no government standards?

I mean we have CSA standards for Sustainable Forest Management Practices. They may not be perfect, but they are there to work with and improve over time.

Perhaps he meant government standards for this industry.

Once again Enbridge knew in 2005 that there were cracks in the pipe carrying oil sands bitumen by Kalamazoo and did nothing about it.

The only time we hear from Harris is when he decides to get off his fat _ss in Kelowna and parrot government propaganda.

This is the same MP, the apparent representative of the people, who stated last fall on Meisner’s radio show “I don’t give a damn what opponents of the pipeline have to say.”

There you go Dick. Put your pension up for cleanup costs when the spill happens.

So people are quick to dismiss Dick Harris, but more than happy to listen to municipalities and their anti-pipeline ‘proclamations’. Interesting.

Obviously industry standards are way too low, but the pipeline itself is not the highest rist here. the waters of the Douglas Channel to Dickson Entrance are amoung the worlds most treacherous (fouth in the world according to Environment Canada. A spill in good weather would take up to 72 hours for a response and in bad weather, that plus however long the storm lasted.How does a boom or a skimmer operate in a winter storm? This is a joke the Bitumen will notust sit there waiting for a response it will sink to the bottom and kill the sea life on the floor which will in tern starve the food chain. Some would also wash up onto the shore fouling the beaches ruining tourism for years and maybe for ever.
I have read reports and letters from mariners familial with the area and supertankers. they are totally against the plan to bring takers in because of the high risk involved and the inadequate plan.
The ballast that the tankers bring back is water form Asia. when that is pumped into the Kitimat area will introduce invasive species to the area which could devistate the local marine ecosystem. Sure the ballast might be pumped ashore initially, but shippers will start pumping into the ocean because it is cheaper once the monitoring is relaxed. That often happens now with bilges they are pumped into the ocean even though it is illegal because it is cheaper.
All that I have said is known to the government but they seem detrmined to worry about that at another time. Then it will be too late. Oops wil not be good enough. the area will be ruined.
We currently do not drill for oil and gas in that area because of risk. Why would we allow this.

Hey look, the Harris-saurus Rex has come out of hiding! Guess he felt the Enbridge situation was getting desperate and needed a few more public-salaried cheerleaders.

for the money

If the debate is purely economic, the probabilty of a spill must be factored in.
It would depend on how many leaks or spills occur, where they occur and how much discharge there is and in what conditions.
some of the costs to be considered are:
1. lost tax revenue due tourism and fisheries lost.
2. compensation to companies and individals not covered by the company or insurance (note poor performance in Kalamazoo spill)
3. Actual cleanup costs not covered by company or insurance. ( keep in mind, that Enbridge set up a limited partnership to run the pipeline and so inulated it self from liability. this partnership has few resources other tahn the pipe and loading facility)
4.welfare for people thrown out of work as a result of permanent destuction of the employment due to environmental damage.
5. Cost of montoring the copliance, maintainace and clean up of any spills.
this list is likely not exhaustive but potentially could run into the tens of billions in a major spill
wWe have major oil and gas reserves off our shore which could generate a lot of benifit directly to BC but we have chosen not to develope these at this time due to high risk in this area (near Kitimat/ Haida Guaii). If we just wanted more money and did not care about our environment, why have we not been developing these reources.

Harris should probably do some research rather than just tow the Harper line. Perhaps he wants moore’s portfolio now that Moore has spoken up about the pipeline.

JohnnyB, I get that from the outset you have supported the Northern Gateway project. I really Do.
Why you would want to continue with that support when wave after wave of documented, unassailable proof of Enbridge’s lack of ability to prevent spills keeps rolling in I have no idea. Blind faith, I suppose. (I will support, no matter how many spills and how much contamination occurs)

But why you would want to support a person who does little but live off the taxpayer, I also have no idea. One who says I don’t care what my constituents have to say, unless, of course, they agree with me.

One: “JohnnyB, I get that from the outset you have supported the Northern Gateway project. I really Do.”

Great. Why is it that the anti-pipeline crowd is so intolerant towards those that support it? Look, I wish we weren’t so reliant on natural resources, jobs, trade and the economy to keep up everyone’s standard of living, but that’s the way it is. If you have some sort of viable alternative other than saying ‘no’, I would like to hear it.

“But why you would want to support a person who does little but live off the taxpayer”

Strange how everyone on here seems to hate Dick Harris, yet people keep voting him in. That must bug people like yourself to no end.

I have a viable alternative, JB.

1. Treat resources, whether they be bitumen, oil, gas, trees, water, etc. as national treasures to be used for the benefit of this country first and North America second and the rest of the world last.

2. Use the resources to add value to the highest level economically and socially viable. There are studies that show that if that were done, something in the order of 3 to 4 times the economic return to this country would be achievable.

3. Based on that, mega projects such as this should have to go through not only an environmental screening but also an economic and social screening from the point of view what is best for the Country. We have to remember that Canada’s role is defending the national security.

In today’s age and in this part of the world it no longer means only the traditional military defense, which we would be useless at anyway, but the economic defense. The strength of a country depends on its resources, whether they be natural resources or human resources.

To think otherwise, and to think short term only, is poor judgment. It means we are sitting ducks for anyone who has their act together.

funny how pople think that we have to sell our resources off as quickly as posible and that we need to kowtow to buisiness interests out of fear they will pull out. The resources are here. They cannot be stolen If the are not extracted today they are still available tomorrow. they will be more valueable then anyway. we should extract only what we can upgrade and sell. the value added will make up for the smaller quantities sold. If companies do not want to invest in plants to upgarde our resources let them go elsewhere others will come or we can build our own refineries, saw mills smelters etc. the raw material is here and the demand for finished products is still out there.

JB, the reason why Harris “bugs me” is that for the salary/benefits/pension that he is getting he gives little in return. He does not work to earn his keep. That’s why.

Harris keeps getting elected because the pockets of right of centre voters in his riding are larger than pockets of left of centre voters. He also gets elected, in part, by default of opposing voters not showing up,by the Conservatives rolling out a well-oiled, $$$-laden election machine when it gets close to election time, and because the two ridings have historically gone Tory. (Wouldn’t be surprised to see that trend start to change though with Nathan Cullen’s influence, coupled with a hatred for Harper’s policies)

You see the comments here and elsewhere asking “Where are our MPs”. Harris, I might suggest, doesn’t get elected because of anything he does, because that amounts to spit.

Careful gus and Forward Thinker 2, with comments like that you could be labelled as being a radical left leaning socialist ;)

If it goes beyond “industry standards” and Enbridge is not going to ignore those standards, then why cannot they not insure the whole thing? Short of that, create a multi-billion dollar indemnification fund.

In other words, Enbridge simply has to indemnify the province of BC for 100% of the costs of any spill, cleanup and remediation of the environment to its orginal state. Plus the province gets to hold the fund and all interest accruing from that fund to address dislocation, taxpayer relief, and to support other wildlife and environmental habitat.

In this way, the environment becomes an “income generator” (should appeal to neo-cons) not a dumping ground for companies. This is the new reality.

Here is food for thought Mr Harris. Enbridge says they have a 99.999 Percent safety rate. Based on the pipeline Enbridge has laid, 0.001 percent is equivilent to one 10 meter breach every 100 Km of pipeline. A temeter breach is similar to the Kalamazoo breach.
I must say the reassurance is cold comfort.
That would mean we should expect a dozen or so breached like Kalamazoo according to Enbridge

One Democrat that is a broad statement about Harris, but no facts. I am curious what should he be doing? What is he not doing? Just curious.

GET
all good idesa, but i perfer my environment without an oil sheen in the first place.

For starters, he should be representing his constituents. If, as seems the case from other posts i have seen, he is not seen out in his community, getting together with voter, Hearing thier views, he is not actually able to represent thier beliefs as he would have no idea what they think. Getting together with like minds party members is not the same as meeting the voters. If he was attending regular forums for voters to attend or appearing on talk shows. or ant other outreach things he could be, people would not be saying he does nothing.

seamutt, obviously the lad should spend more time in his riding serving his constituents’ interests and concerns than he does in the Okanagan. Virtually the only time you hear from or see him is to do with some photo-op or government propaganda spreading.

Concerning this issue, Enbridge, Harris should be listening to the concerns of the people of his ridng and taking them and speaking to them in Ottawa. Is that not what a “representative” is supposed to do?
Instead he says he doesn’t give a damn what they have to say if they are in opposition to the pipeline.

interesting, not long ago the promises of jobs with this pipeline were several thousand, and that was the cornerstone of Harper and Enbridge’s logic for building the pipeline.
Now its several hundred according to Mr. Harris.
Are we willing to risk so much for a few hundred jobs?

“If you have some sort of viable alternative other than saying ‘no’, I would like to hear it.”

There is a viable alternative JB and it is Enbridges backup plan. Move the bitumen east in a pipeline that is already there. There is no need to move this bitumen through BC.

interesting, not long ago the promises of jobs with this pipeline were several thousand, and that was the cornerstone of Harper and Enbridge’s logic for building the pipeline.
Now its several hundred according to Mr. Harris.
Are we willing to risk so much for a few hundred jobs?

interesting, not long ago the promises of jobs with this pipeline were several thousand, and that was the cornerstone of Harper and Enbridge’s logic for building the pipeline.
Now its several hundred according to Mr. Harris.
Are we willing to risk so much for a few hundred jobs?

What an appropriate name for a politician….dick.

I see JB left the country ….. he diod not likethe alternatives …. too much thinking for him…. LOL

Hey, that is not even condescending … or is it???

What is a Dick Harris. It’s been so long since I’ve seen one that I have forgot what one looks like, but that might not be a bad thing either. He has no incentive to work. It’s reported that his pension after 2010 was to be $118,668 a year. Not bad.

I dont know how people on these posts can state that Harris does not represent his constituents. Considering that he gets re-elected with a huge majority every election, should prove beyond a doubt that people are satisfied with him.

Fact of the matter is, even if Harris was mummified and stored in a cave, he would still probably get elected before any left leaning Liberal, or far left no account NDP,er.

Thats the message loud and clear in the Interior. Anything is better than a Liberal or NDPer. You lost the election, get used to the idea. You are now on the outside looking in. Much like a kid outside a candy shop.

This Country finally has a Prime Minister who can do his own thinking, and is not afraid to speak his mind. Much better than a mindless import from the USA (Ignatieff) or some bleeding heart NDPer from Quebec.

We need a strong majority Government in power for the next five to ten years. Are we smart enough to do the right thing, or will we do what we always do, and piss in the pickles. My bet is on the latter, but who knows, the longer Harper stays around the better he looks, especially when you look at the alternatives.

Ie; Muclair, Rae, Trudeu, Duhhhhhhhhh.

GET_Literate: good idea. Enbridge speaks with forked tongue. If you look at their website they say they are responsible but when you look at the news about their legal wrangling in courts to absolve them of any real responsiblity then you have to wonder if you can believe anything they say. Talk is cheap and they are very good at talking. Doing is another thing and they don’t seem to be nearly as good at that.

gus: I see JB left the country ….. he diod not likethe alternatives …. too much thinking for him…. LOL

Hey, that is not even condescending … or is it???”

Yup, pretty much. Are you and NMG the same person? Anyway, one can only take so much useless bickering. Then it starts to get boring. Good night.

Gus, you are a pompous self important condescending serial spammer. You must think the world gives a rats ass for your central planning BS. You constantly display your ignorance of economics and how the real world works, intent instead on your theoretical tripe supported by like minded links.

To much thinking for you?

Keep it coming JB. This board needs posters that live in reality.

I have dealt with Harris a couple of times and always got prompt service. To the naysayers here got any facts?

Ships have been plying Douglas channel for decades with a lot less regulation than what the tankers will have.

ooooooh …… good one dow7500.

Hey JB, are you and Dow7500 the same person?

Palopu, there are two key reasons why Canada has managed to weather the econoimic dowturn much of the western world has faced in the last 4 to 5 years …… a petro dollar and a solid banking system ….

Harper and his hangers-on have had nothing to do with either.

Could give you a lot of links to back that postion up ….. but I know that there are several so-called people who do not like sausages …. :-)

“Fact of the matter is, even if Harris was mummified and stored in a cave, he would still probably get elected before any left leaning Liberal, or far left no account NDP,er.”

I agree 100% with you Palopu. This is conservative country of the Conservative Reform Alliance Party (C.R.A.P. for short)type … It does not matter who the individual is who will get the nod to replace Harris, they will win hands down.

You can see why from the posters on here …. LOL

I see more misinformation on this subject presented as facts than any other. Like you ‘Forward Thinker…misquoting Environment Canada… your bs. comes straight from a WWF web page which specifically states that the Hecate Straights are the 4th. most dangerous waters in the world. NOT the end of the Douglas Channel. Why didn’t you mention that the Pacific Pilotage Authority states that theres no problem with tanker traffic in the Douglas Channel and beyond?

I see more misinformation on this subject presented as facts than any other. Like you ‘Forward Thinker…misquoting Environment Canada… your bs. comes straight from a WWF web page which specifically states that the Hecate Straights are the 4th. most dangerous waters in the world. NOT the end of the Douglas Channel. Why didn’t you mention that the Pacific Pilotage Authority states that theres no problem with tanker traffic in the Douglas Channel and beyond?

Leftists are sure a mean lot. I guess it comes from having no viable argument so they have to vilify anyone with a counter view.

“You can see why from the posters on here …. LOL”

Don’t laugh gus, some of the posters on here are offended by such childish behaviour, LMAO.

p.s. JB, LMAO is LOL amped up a bit. If you want to go even further you could use ROTFLMAO. I’m not sure there is an internet abbreviation for “get off my lawn”, but you might know better than I.

Wow. Someone get me some salve for that burn.

Gus, your ignorance is on display once more. On the one hand you have railed against Harpers growth policies in the oilsands. Then you say Harper has had nothing to do with our “petro dollar”.

Do you see anything wrong with that position? or is that to much thinking for you.

Thank god we finally have sujch a lead in the poles that the BC Liebs and BC cons haven’t even got any one to go up against our Adrian and with such a majority we should get some sanity back into BC.

birdman wrote: “Why didn’t you mention that the Pacific Pilotage Authority states that theres no problem with tanker traffic in the Douglas Channel and beyond?”

Ummm….
“A pilot who has done more than 400 transits of the Douglas Channel told me it’s a seriously scary piece of water for a ship whose maneuverability is as limited as that of a large, loaded tanker.” (Harry Swain is a former federal deputy minister of Industry Canada and Indian and Northern Affairs Canada)

birdman wrote: “Why didn’t you mention that the Pacific Pilotage Authority states that theres no problem with tanker traffic in the Douglas Channel and beyond?”

Ummm….
“A pilot who has done more than 400 transits of the Douglas Channel told me it’s a seriously scary piece of water for a ship whose maneuverability is as limited as that of a large, loaded tanker.” (Harry Swain is a former federal deputy minister of Industry Canada and Indian and Northern Affairs Canada)

JohnnyBelt (aka C.K.) :”Great. Why is it that the anti-pipeline crowd is so intolerant towards those that support it?”

In order to have a right to bemoan the *faults* of others you should sweep your own front steps first!

Great, now the great Confucious is giving me advice.

I am so pleased that there are s many more anti pipeline people on this blog. It shows that there are activists out there that are copn cearned with BC and it’s environment and that they are aware of the Enbridge / Harper lies.

Dow7500 …. when Trudeau tried to get the provinces, specifically Alberta, to act a little bit more like a member of the Canadian family with respect to sharing some of the economic benefits of the oil it was sitting on, the province told him to shove it since that was provincial jurisdiction.

So tell me Dow7500, how Harper had anything to do with moving Canada to a petro dollar since oil is a provincial asset and under provincial control.

All Harper is is a free loader with little to line his pockets with compared to what Alberta has to line its pockets with.

If, on the other hand, Harper were interested in Canada and its union, he would not ride roughshod over BC as he is doing.

I hate to bring this up, but he never did keep his promise to give BC $1billion a year for 10 years to offset the problems we have and will continue to face due to the MPB infestation. I think that promise dwindled out after 3 or maybe 4 years.

The only reason why the oil sands are doing as well as they are is because we had a second oil “crisis” which makes it viable to mine the bitumen, especially with the cheap price of natural gas. None of that is Harper’s doing.

You know dow7500, I have noticed that you are incapable of thinking and sharing the thoughts you have with others on here.

But hey, we need people like you in the world to buy those funny T-shirts made in China. Keep them tucked in, you look more sophisticated that way ;-)

gus: “But hey, we need people like you in the world to buy those funny T-shirts made in China.”

So do lots of people, even most of the anti-pipeline crowd I’ll bet. (But don’t tell anyone).

Very interesting posts though… are we starting to see gus’s true political colours?

keithcummings did you know that big ships have been sailing those waters for decades under a lot less control and regualtions tan what tankers will have.

Trudeau now there was a piece of work. Never held a real job just like his son that many swoon over for whatever reason. Income trust spoiled brats.

Gus are you and Johnny bright eyes one of the same? It seems that you both have the same confused slant on things. Well to each his own or should I say you’re entgitled to an opinion.

JB … my true political colours are simple … everyone who knows me knows I am a federal liberal as well as a provincial liberal …..

I have no use for right wing politics anywhere in the world. Why not? Because we are all people and the people are more important than companies.

I have also indicated that if there were such a thing as a Libertarian party in Canada I would very likely support them if they had a chance to form government.

So, JB, once more I am not only willing to say what I believe in, just in case you and others have not been able to tell, but I am also able to explain why I believe that way, something you and many others seem to be unable to do.

I think Harper and his gang have corrupted the meaning of the word conservative. I very much respected the Progressive Conservatives.

In my eyes, Harper is an opportunist, a chameleon who changes colours as the need arises to further his personal views, whatever they may be. Reform Party, president of the National Citizen’s Coalition, then on to the Canadian Alliance then moved the party to take over the PCs and create the Conservatives who are anything but “progressive”.

With respect to oil, he started off as a Liberal in his youth, but disagreed with the National Energy Program. In fact, when he joined the PC, he left them because they took too long to get rid of the National Energy Program.

Basically he is a regionalist from the west. No different than the Party Quebecois running Canada. Canada needs someone who is in it for Canada to run the country, not someone who is in it for Alberta. And I say that because he is not really for the west. If he were, he would be more interested in BC. He is not.

Am I clear to everyone now of why I think Harper is worse than Mulroney for this country?

Surefire … everyone has a confused slant on things when seen through the eyes of someone who does not agree with that stand …. welcome to the club and the reality of the world ….

If you are over 22 and have not realized that yet, you are a bit slow on the uptake …..

Some people actually get along and learn to live with that realization through compromise ….. in fact, it’s the Canadian way ;-)

I was watching CNN last night for the first time in many years and realized that CNN politcal programming is a national version of chat blogs such as opinion 250 …..

BTW, Merkel is in Ottawa today to talk to Harper. Most contentious issue? The oil sands. Not the most important one, but the most contentious one and the one that not only the Germans, but the western Europeans are most interested in.

Merkel used to be the Minister of Environment, so she has a good grasp of the topic. Harper picked a fight with the Europeans over the issue of fuel quality. The reputation of Canada has suffered as a result.

But then, no one on this side of the Atlantic and north of the USA cares, right?

gus: “So, JB, once more I am not only willing to say what I believe in, just in case you and others have not been able to tell, but I am also able to explain why I believe that way, something you and many others seem to be unable to do.”

That’s great for you. You seem to have this need to justify yourself to a bunch of anonymous people on a meaningless message board, and your posts will be forgotten in a few days.

I don’t feel quite the same drive to make 2000 word posts, nor do most of the posters on here. Whatever justifications are made are easily dismissed by those who don’t agree, so what’s the point? I put my views out there, and you can take them or leave them.

gus: “I was watching CNN last night for the first time in many years and realized that CNN politcal programming is a national version of chat blogs such as opinion 250 …..”

I will agree with you on this one. I can’t watch CNN for this reason.

“I put my views out there, and you can take them or leave them.”

The question is why bother even with that?

At the moment this is one of many addictions of mine, and am well aware of it. I have simply succumbed to one of the fads of the day ….. I do, however, not twitter, text over cells which one can actually still talk to people on, use facebook.

As far as a blog interface goes, this is very primitive and I do wish that discussion threads could be more easily followed. I suspect if I leave this site, it will be because that feature is not available and there are few who really want to discuss nd explore and learn something new rather than simnply pound their chests.

To me one of the joys of the world is that it can be more complex than that simple ape in the woods thing …. :-)

“The question is why bother even with that?”

You might ask that question of 95% of the posters here. For whatever reason, you seem to pick on my posts, probably because you don’t agree with them a lot of the time. But as I’ve said before, I’m not here to satisfy you.

Gus, Add sanctimony to one of your annoying traits. Your view of the NEP is rich.
“Dow7500 …. when Trudeau tried to get the provinces, specifically Alberta, to act a little bit more like a member of the Canadian family with respect to sharing some of the economic benefits of the oil it was sitting on, the province told him to shove it since that was provincial jurisdiction”.

Well, Gus, Trudeau DID implement the NEP even though it was provincial jurisdiction.
It happened and the ensuing collapse of the O&G industry in Alberta ensures another Liberal will never take a majority in Alberta. You can’t be serious that Trudeau only wanted Alberta “to act like a member of the family”. It was expropriation without compensation. Forcing Alberta to sell there resources well below world prices so Easter Canada could have cheap oil was the Canadian crime of the century. Hell Why not force BC to sell 2×4’s to Canada below world prices, or wheat or cars or fish or copper. Didn’t happen did it.

Do tell about the second OIL crises. What , when. In 2008 at $150/bl or $30 in 2009. The oilsands have been in development since the 70’s. Harpers role has been in not introducing a carbon tax, a special wealth tax, or developmental road blocks. Thing what Chia face Mulclair would do, or whatever Libtard runs that dead entity.
That would surly correct the “petro dollar” Thats how Harper has had an impact. Get IT? or is that to much thinking for you.

Thanks for acknkowledging your a federal Liberal and Trudeau fan. It explains so much of why your knowledge of a functioning economy could be put on the head of a pin.

As for not sharing ideas? You don’t share ideas with stupid. It’s a waste of time.

gus

“With respect to oil, he started off as a Liberal in his youth, but disagreed with the National Energy Program. In fact, when he joined the PC, he left them because they took too long to get rid of the National Energy Program.”

He left the PC party due to Mulroneys baltant Quebec porkbarreling. Thats how reform started. He is the strongest PM this country has seen in generations. I know that drives you Libtards nuts. Get over it. You lost, Cons won. Good luck with Trudeau 2.

“

seamut: the tankers that have gone in and out of Kitimat are rated at 50,000 barrels. The proposed Enbridge tankers are rated at 250,000 barrels. In the narrow Douglas Channel channel with crazy tides and severe unpredictable currents (see internet info source below), being 5 times as large could be a problem. One other problem is the classification for shipping into Kitimat presently does not allow for tankers of Enbridge’s size. But Harper will change those rules soon no doubt, like he has changed all the other environmental rules that could have stopped Enbridge.

http://www.vancouverobserver.com/blogs/earthmatters/2012/04/23/marine-industry-experts-open-letter-against-enbridge-pipeline-and

here’s a good laugh for all of us folks in the NWBC. An Enbridge flyover of the proposed pipeline route…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3vxhnan_ZA

here’s a good laugh for all of us folks in the NWBC. An Enbridge flyover of the proposed pipeline route…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3vxhnan_ZA