“Furthermore, this mechanism could also be set up in such a way that the front-line employees who actually run the city operations and deliver the services could make suggestions to improve operations, cut unnecessary costs, and stop questionable practices without fear of retaliation from management or members of Council.”

Only problem here is that the front line employees make up a large part of the unnecessary costs. The city work force is an over bloated bureaucracy that needs some serious trimming.

Here`s a thought. Is it possible that KPMG was paid to come up with these radical decisions to sell something so someone could get rich? After all, look at PG hotel.

Axman, your broadside assumes that no work is actually done by government employees. The fact of the matter is that city workers carry out functions that you and I depend upon, whether it’s plowing snow, issuing permits, or processing your property taxes. It is the front-line workers you despise who actually do these jobs, so perhaps you are confused and were really thinking about their managers and supervisors, the ones who don’t actually perform a direct function? If city hall is anything like some of the other large institutions in this burg, you are probably right: uselessly top-heavy with administrators.

” The fact of the matter is that city workers carry out functions that you and I depend upon, whether it’s plowing snow, issuing permits, or processing your property taxes. It is the front-line workers you despise who actually do these jobs,”

They may do these jobs but they are terribly inefficient. Is that their fault or is it the fault of the system? Either way, there needs to be a serious reduction in the municipal workforce. 47 million dollars in salaries for a city of 80,000 is not sustainable.

I bet the city could cut about 350 g`s in wages if they got out of the catering business ie Civic Center and let not for profit and local businesses make some cash in that department. One of many cuts that can be made to save dinero instead of charging more to the tax payer to make more money.

axman or former faxman, I don’t usually agree with you, but your comment on the bloated workforce is not without merit. The other day someone had posted a link to the report of 2012 salaries over $80,000, and it was eye-opening. I am not saying that some of the people on that list did not deserve their renumeration, but many certainly did not. The inefficiencies, however, are not a problem of the system per se, but of poor management. There appears to be a culture of promoting mediocrity and discouraging the creative and ambitious talent within the organization.

“Are the Only Options Cut Services Or Boost User Fees and Taxes?”

If you’re ok with continuing debt accumulation there is a third option… maintain the status quo and see how far that gets you.

And as mentioned in another thread, you have to look at efficiencies and effectiveness in local government. I have a feeling if you did a little digging you could find all kinds of inefficiencies in local government processes and procedures.

We hear all the time how good an organization IPG is, and what a wonderful job they do for the City. This of course cant be backed up with any facts. Other than being involved in locating a call centre here, they dont have much of a claim to fame.

Where is the political will to get rid of this organization????

Where is the political will go get rid of the Citys interest in the Northern Sport Centre???

Where is the political will to have an open and honest discussion about the Cougar franchise, and the amount of money it is costing the City.

Where is the political will to work with the justice system to ensure that repeat offenders get more jail time. Williams Lake and some other cities made a concerted effort to have repeat offenders get longer jail terms, and there was an immediate drop in crimes committed.

If the Police are not part of the core review then their budget should be arbitrarily reduced by 10%. This would not be a hardship, especially if they worked to ensure repeaters were in jail, thus reducing the amount of time they need to process criminals. Just because the Police are exempt from the Core Review, does this mean that the 50 staff that works for them are **exempt** also. Doesnt seem fair to the rest of the City workers.

There are many many other ways to find savings at City Hall.

We need the political will.

Thomas Jefferson said that Governments yield to pressure, and its up to the citizens to apply that pressure.

So get to work.

I sound like a broken record but “wages are too high at the City.” Why can’t the City not sign the next contract and decrease wages. Going from $26 per hour to $20 would not be that bad. I know people get used to the $26 but that is paid only at the City. The real world, aka private business, can’t make a profit at those wages.

masseyospika: I agree with you. The frontline workers are doing the work but how that work is laid out for them to do is rediculous.

If the front line workers are not doing their job its the function of the supervisor to see that they do. But as suggested the bloating of the system lies at the top where the big wages are paid .

Imagine having 18 directors and god only knows how many supervisors is where tne problem lies. The front line workers are not overpaid. their pay scale is probably less then what those in private industry get. For a fact a tradesman eith the City gets about the same wage as one working in industry.

And I have to agree with Peter on this one there are many areas where spending needs to be cut rather then in the services provided. Like why does 14% of the budget go towards debt serving. And here mi an old one why are they tamping potholes with a shovel when they should be using a tamper to do the job.

I’m taking bets as to how many of the poteholes filled this summer will be destroyed by frost next spring.
Cheers

There were a lot of potholes NOT filled this summer. A drive through Carter Light Subdivision area will point that out very quickly. Guess no one complained there.

And there are no frontline workers that are paid $80 grand per year. A tradesman at the City makes about 60 grand a year .
Cashiers and office staff are paid abouta 25 bucks an hour. Outside workers about the same as clerical jobs. Andm guess what most of their wages a spent in the comunity.

When you start to contract work the wages will be less and the profits will probably go to china ar heaven knows where.
Cheers

services have already been cut ….. having a backlog of many millions of dollars is a prime example of services which have been cut …. postponing the inevitable (potholes do not repair themselves) is a cut in service.

So, we are really talking about re-allocation of money. In other words if we are to speed up the road repair to bring us to where it should be within say 5 years, we cannot cut back taxes. All we can do is re-allocate dollars.

So, another way to look at it is that we have not been spending money on roads, so that we can spend money on “winter games”. So, to get the winter games here, we have to have lousy roads.

Everyone can put their own pet project in for “winter games”. :-)

I know of a tradesperson on that over $75,000 list. I am tired of that “wages will be spent in the community” argument. The wages for too high PERIOD.

What I am saying is that no for-profit business can make money spending that much money on wages. Only an entity taking from the taxpayers can afford to pay that much (and apparently we can’t afford it).

I have one issue with what Peter said. The question to be answered, isn’t will there be blood letting – just whose blood. If you raise taxes, then you have everyone lose just a little blood. If you raise fees, the people who use those services lose more blood than those who don’t. If you privatize, union jobs become non union jobs and the former/new employees lose a lot more blood than anyone.

I find it somewhat ironic that Prince George was built on industry that employed a mostly unionized workforce, run by well paid management, and I suspect, many of the people who complain about high property taxes, were beneficiaries of those union and high management wages, and now, that others would like to enjoy those same good wages, they want to get rid of those self same union jobs.

Brother and sister until we’re retired, then you’re on your own?

“I find it somewhat ironic that Prince George was built on industry that employed a mostly unionized workforce, run by well paid management, and I suspect, many of the people who complain about high property taxes, were beneficiaries of those union and high management wages, and now, that others would like to enjoy those same good wages, they want to get rid of those self same union jobs.”

I think the big difference is that the unions you mention were a bit more realistic. They understood that if the company did well, they did well and vice versa. There was more of an incentive to work together. Tax payer funded union workers seem to think that they deserve to keep their jobs no matter how their employer is doing. That’s what annoys me the most; no one owes any one a living.

Good point Ski50. I have to point out that 7% of my wages went into a pension fund which I now enjoy being retired. But the none union workers have been led to believe that unions are bad. They are missing the boat.

Just saw the other day that Norweigh has a 500 bilion dollar slush fund that they have reaped from the state owned oil wells and they are debt free. We need to stop bikering and start to asking our government whats happening with oil revenue in Canada.
Cheers

“The question to be answered, isn’t will there be blood letting – just whose blood.”

Good point.

From my point of view: Council took the outcry of our citizens when they said loud and clear…quit wasting our money on big pet projects with little to no proven ROI or benefit to the overall public of whom is footing the bill and don’t raise our taxes to cover the mounting debt of such, while our roads crumble and our RCMP building falls apart and the Kin roofs rot away, etc. etc.

And spun it to hear…let’s give ourselves a raise, lay off a whole department at the City and take other measures to pay back our election supporters, pay a horrendous and ridiculous amount for an outside, single focused multi-national corporation for this sham of a “core review”, fire-sell off our public entities like our public pool and contract out public services, distract us from the real issues by going after some of the only decent paying family supporting jobs we have by feathering over friggn’ parking meter money, kick what’s left of the non profit organizations that supply services and programming, at a song and with primarily volunteer labour after the province took the first round….I could go on and on.

The majority of folks are absolutely OK with a rise in taxes if they see their money is managed in an ethical and responsible manner.

Invest in our necessary core infrastructure and services such as water, sewer, roads and maintain our hard earned public buildings and spaces, remunerate people well to do the job, keep up our parks and sidewalks and pretty it all up to make our city a nice place to live, support the non profit organizations that are contributing to a healthy, fun and vibrant community, support a thriving small business community…..and above all, keep the big business and corporations the hell out of public services…I could write a book about that little diddy.

Our tax money is meant to support the public services & amenities required to keep our city running well to benefit the largest portion our citizens, which will attract more families and business opportunities….yadda yadda.

IMO we have lost our way.

Norway Debt Free??????

NO!!!!!!

As of June 2011, Norway has an external debt of $644.5 billion or $131,220 per capita.

Canada has an external debt of $1.181 trillion as of the same date, which works out to $29,625.

India has an external debt of $335 billion as of December 2011 or $299/capita.

Question:

Which country is better off?
————————————

For those who keep promoting the notion that Norway has no debt, you might be interested to get info first hand from Norwegian Government sources.

http://www.ssb.no/k3_en

From that site:

The twelve-month growth in total gross debt (C3) was 5.1 per cent to end-July, marginally down from 5.2 per cent the previous month. The decrease stemmed from both domestic and foreign debt sources.
Total gross debt amounted to NOK 4 977 ($870.5billion) billion at end-July, up from NOK 4 969 billion at end-June.
Mainland Norway’s gross debt accounted for 87 per cent of the total gross debt at end-July. This amounted to NOK 4 321 billion at end-July, up from NOK 4 303 billion the previous month.

Of course real data like that is not going to prevent those on here to keep on believing in rumour mills …..

Bornandbread: Why can’t the City not sign the next contract and decrease wages. Going from $26 per hour to $20 would not be that bad. I know people get used to the $26 but that is paid only at the City. The real world, aka private business, can’t make a profit at those wages.

Just a couple of honest questions/observations:

I was not aware that public money was to be managed to make a profit (?). Is it not collected, through taxation, to be managed to support much of what I said in my previous post here….infrastructure and amenities to support a safe, sound & healthy community to benefit all citizens? I don’t care that they don’t make a huge profit, just manage it as fairly and wisely as possible to keep us out of mounting debt and keep pet projects and backroom deals to benefit the profit margin of a few – out of the mix.

Let business do what it is designed to do…offer goods and services to people that they will purchase, and make a profit for the risk takers and investors. Fair enough. Our City is there and remunerated by the taxpayer, to manage and oversee in a supportive manner, so that the aforementioned is possible, through the appropriate licensing, etc.

For private business…didn’t we just bail a bunch of ’em out of hock a few short years ago, after banks and a few corporations ran their businesses into the ground? How many billions was that, again, and where did much of the bail-out money go?

As for the wages of City workers…look into the disparity between the managers, shareholders and CEO’s of private and banking corporations and you will see it is not your average worker, union or not, that is gettn’ filthy rich. It is a fact that salaries and options paid out to the private sector amount to more than 250 times that of an average worker, up from 25 times only a couple decades ago.

We have a larger problem here and it is not your community building small businesses, union workers or not with the disposable income to support them, that are running us into the ground.

I work as a professional in both the public and private sectors and my wages in the private sector are nearly double what they are in the public sector. This isn’t always the case, but the higher you go in the food chain, the more true it is, so maybe stop making generalizations about public sector wages always being out of step with the private sector.

There is a difference between say Comptrollers, Managers, Engineers, etc; and what they get paid in the private and public sectors, however these people are a small portion of the 750 City workers and staff.

Making comparisons means nothing. What we need to look at is the ability to pay. If we cannot afford to pay the high wages and benefits, then we should not be paying them. If anyone at City Hall is not happy working there after say a 2% decrease in salary, and no further increases for 5 years, then they can leave and go to Kelowna, Kamloops, Vancouver, Ft McMurray, or whatever. We as taxpayers are not compelled by any law, to keep staff and wages at these high levels, just because they want us to.

Same thing for Managers/Engineers/etc; We have been fed the BS that we have to pay these high wages in order to get the best people. What a crock. Are we to beleive that the people at City hall are the best?? Compared to who and what???

Not one soul in this berg has ever made a comparison to confirm or deny that we are getting the best??

Further very few if anyone in this town, or on these posts have a clue as to how much money the City collects in taxes, who pays what, etc; etc;. In other words, how much do the pulp mills pay, keeping in mind that they supply their own water, sewer, etc; so in effect all they get is a paved road, and some fire protection. (Most have their own)

How much money does the CN pay to the City, and how is that number arrived at. How does it compare to Sarnia Ont., Windsor, North Bay, or North Vancouver.

How can we keep paying higher wages and salaries when the City hasnt grown in population to any extent for the past 30 years.

We keep repeating all the BS we hear, or we dream up our own line of BS or we spout the Union or Business line, however at the end of the day we really dont know a hell of a lot about whats going on at City Hall.

What part of being $130 Million in debt do people not understand.

What part of having a $171 Million dollar infrastructure deficit eludes you.

Why do you think that we need all the Police, firemen, city workers, etc; when the best we can do, is say **this is the number, amount, etc that other cities of similiar size have**.

Does it not occur to people that other Citys have the same problem, ie; debt, too many staff, and failing infrastructure.

We have over the years let City Hall run things without any interference to speak of, and the end result is they have taken us to the abyss. We either stop the madness now, or it will implode, and we will all suffer.

“We as taxpayers are not compelled by any law, to keep staff and wages at these high levels, just because they want us to.”

That is right. There are other reasons.

An urban area our size is is compelled by provincial law to incorporate as a municipality and make sure that there are certain minimum requirements which have to be met as far as providing services to the citizens of the municipality. Not only that, but the general methods of how to do that (prescriptive requirements) is controlled by provincial laws. Even the governance system is not as flexible as it is in some the US states. Thus, a system of governance used by the City of Portland, Oregon would not be possible here.

Further, as with all social systems, they design, educate, enforce, evaluate. Right now, it appears that since some municipalities are not maintaining expected standards, provinces are beginning to do more evaluation and enforcement to ensure that taxpayers are getting the best value possible for their money.

So, don’t want to keep wages high? Find people who are willing to do it for less to the standard that is needed. Good luck!!!!

In any service or product procurement there are five variables …… scope, quality, time, location, cost ….. change any one and it will affect one or more of the other three.

Pay less results in one or more of –less product, less quality, less productivity, different location.

“How can we keep paying higher wages and salaries when the City hasnt grown in population to any extent for the past 30 years.”

Geees, Palopu … I really thought you were smarter than that.

Waht does the population have to do with it? The general population in the city is earing more now than they did 10 years ago.

The general population is paying more for food now, even though they are not eating more.

The general population is paying more for gasoline now, even though a litre has not gotten any bigger.

I can go on to fill reams of paper …. it’s called inflation …. ;-)

If you want to talk about how long it might take to do something these days than it did 10, 20, 30 years ago, then you would have my attention.

With regards to how much effort it takes these days to get permission to build a house in the City … well, guess what, in 1915 it likely did not take much, if any, time at all.

Think about the reasons why and think about how that has even changed in the last 20 years, and you will see the real reason why costs have gone up and continue to go up.

Even the cost of building a simple road has gone up over the decades, not because the differential between public and private compensation has changed that much, but because we have moved from dirt roads which could not even with stand light traffic to asphalt and concrete surfaces built with expensive machinery made in foreign cities, provinces and countries, which has to be purchased, maintained, repaired, trashed, and replaced with greater and greater frequency.

Remember we are slaves to the notion of people having to earn a living, so we have to create more stuff and provide more services just so that we can buy the stuff and the services ….. we are all on the same merry-go-round ….. and some people are not all that merry anymore.

“”KPMG” giant multinational”. First giveaway where Ewart is going. KPMG has done my taxes for 20 plus years. Does that make me some kind of corporate stooge? Most corporatoins are multi-national Ewart. Whats your point besides spewing predictable leftard swill?

There reality is we need services in our city to make it a desirable destination to live. We also need front line workers to provide these services. If you agree with the ideology that our city should be brought down to the lowest comparators, then KPMG report satisfies. I do not agree our city should be brought down to the lowest common denominator. I believe that good union wages serve our city’s small businesses well. I believe our city’s services need to be enhanced, not cut, privatised or reduced. So the KMPG report does not satisfy me. I also believe that the residences of PG do not agree with KPMG or the direction Mayor and council are heading and given the opportunity to speak about PG citizens will be clear and concise with their disapproval. The truth is Mayor and council do not want to do the hard work required so they have opted for KPMG to report on what services and supports are provided in PG that are over and above comparable cities. Again, why do we want to be less than other cities, I don’t understand that thinking. We should have the best city that our money can provide. That is what I believe.

I just want to touch on the union wages if you would indulge me a little longer. Union wages, good paying jobs are not the issue or the problem in our city. Union wages and good jobs sustain our city’s small businesses. If you prescribe to the ideology the the root of the city’s financial ills is the wages of the city workers then you lack an understanding of our city’s economics. Driving down good paying wages, eliminating or contracting out union jobs takes away the amount of disposable income one has to spend in the city’s small businesses. So just to break it down simpler, if I make less, I will be spending less. If many of us make many of us will be spending less. How does small business survive when they do not have enough people buying their product? This should be simple enough to understand even for most simpletons, they don’t survive. So clearly our city needs good paying jobs in order to sustain a vibrant and desirable city.

Mayor and council need to work harder at making our city vibrant and desirable with services and supports and good paying jobs so others look at PG as a place to comes and live, work, open businesses and raise a family. KPMG report does not offer such a vision.

Too many Chief’s and not enough Indian’s ;]

Bond, you do realize that taxpayers are paying those city employees and their union wages. If I follow your flawed line of thinking, we could get ourselves out of trouble by hiring another 10000 people at the City.

Seems that my information source is differnt then yours Gus. check this out .

http://www.vancouverobserver.com/sustainability/2012/03/21/good-idea-canada-norways-oil-and-gas-revenues-have-provided-norwegians-550
Cheers

Johnny, you do realize that your taxes ain’t going to decrease when city employees and their highfaluting union wages are contracted out to profit motivated businesses, right?

I do realize that government is horribly inefficient and I look cautiously at people who think the government does the best job, while at the same time criticizing them for this and that.

It is said that Henry Ford saw that it was to his own benefit to compensate his employees well enough to enable them to purchase his product…

Draw your own conclusions.

Henry Ford had a private business, and his workers were private workers. I have never heard of Henry Ford suggesting that the Government pay thier employee’s more money so that they could buy his cars. Why is that???

Gus. When we talk about the General Population. We (I) am talking about the population that pays taxes, and therefore the wages and benefits of City Workers. So as inflation goes up, so does the cost of operating the City. This means that in addition to the increases because of inflation, tax payers have to pay higher taxes for City employee’s so they can keep up with inflation.

One way to reduce your costs because of inflation etc; is to buy less or cheaper food, buy less gas, spend less on necessaties, etc; in addition another way is to reduce your taxes by reducing the cost of Government. Less civic employee’s means less cost. Reducing city staff therefore becomes not much different that cutting down on the amount of groceries you purchase. Not necessarily what you want to do, but probably something you have to do. You might have to get by with less City services as a consequence. So be it.

Real taxpayers cannot continue to pay more and more for civic workers, especially if (as in the case of low income or pensioners) thier income is not rising at the rate of inflation. Its basically simple. Keep doing what we are doing and we will be the same as the European Union.

Because our population has not increased to any extent, and the fact that industry and business has actually declined in the past 30 years, we can safely say that the less or same amount of people are paying more to get less service. Thats untenable.

Once you throw in the incompetence of Civic Workers, especially Managers and Administration, and thier lack of concern about tax dollars and you have a serious problem.

Then throw in the culture of entitlement and the problem gets worse. These public employee’s hide behind all the rules, regulations, laws, etc; etc; and say that the general public needs these to survive. The fact of the matter is most of these rules were put in by the Government, and its them that needs them to survive.

Prince George is a **basket case** and is for all intents and purposes bankrupt. The problem is most people dont know this, and believe that things will just remain the same forever.

Not bloody likely.

Have a nice day.