‘based on what you’ve learned so far…’ well I guess 10,000 would vote against it, since the only information they have is from the lefties and economic idiots that prowl this site. I wish some of the ‘opinionators’ on here would study modern pipeline and tanker construction/operations.
Now why don’t you do a poll that asks
‘Given the economic benefits of Northern Gateway to our province and Canada, should this pipeline go ahead?

Still no birdman! Pipelines might be modernized but the rats are still at the controls. Enbridge said they have no plans to put automatic shutoff valves on this pipeline. I wonder why? Canada and the Province will do fine without this pipeline.

Well, Birdman, since you’re so peeved by the “lefties and economic idiots”, why don’t you supply some actual information instead of further rants? As for modern pipeline and tanker construction, show us the studies that illustrate their safety against the backdrop of BC geography/topology. As for the economic benefits to BC? We get a fraction of what Alberta and the Feds get, so please don’t fob that canard off on us anymore.

For this poll conducted here were the duplicate, triplicate, etc. votes removed?

I for one support the pipeline

“I for one support the pipeline”. Why?

birdman:-“Now why don’t you do a poll that asks
‘Given the economic benefits of Northern Gateway to our province and Canada, should this pipeline go ahead?’ “
===========================================

I agree with you on modern pipeline and tanker operations. Both of which have a very low risk of spillage considering the enormous volumes moved worldwide.

But lets look a little further at those supposed ‘economic benefits’.

If, as has been the case with other BC mega-projects, the construction of this one raises the general price level of goods and services that have to be paid by BC consumers as we try to ‘earn our daily bread’, then all we’re really getting out of it is an ‘inflation’.

Not ‘prosperity’, as its proponents are preaching.

Unlike some of those other past mega-projects, where we also got an ‘inflation’, did get the longer term benefit of, say, adequate and comparatively cheaper hydro-electric power, is this pipeline going to result in our getting cheaper gasoline and other petroleum products relative to our incomes?

Or will what we pay for those be more likely to rise still further in ratio to them, when its construction gets under way, and continue that trajectory skyward after its finished?

To me, THIS is the fundamental issue we should be looking at and addressing. Not the rather miniscule chance that it will spill oil all over everything, or how many ‘jobs’ will be created when it’s being built.

Surely we should have learned by now that higher product prices for all the consumables we need is really of no advantage to anyone over any extended period of time. Any immediate rise in business profits it induces is very quickly followed by an increase in business costs, as people push for higher incomes to ‘catch-up’. And our industries that are left, the ones that are supposed to be ‘globally competitive’ now, find they no longer are.

If we are to have this pipeline, and it is going to truly be beneficial to BC citizens, then at very minimum we should be FULLY and continually compensated, for the ‘inflation’ it will cause, and what that will cost us all over and above any benefits through additional employment it might bring.

One way in which that might be done is to provincially tax every litre of product for export that goes through it ~ NOT to add to the BC government’s general revenue, but to be applied against the price we pay at the pumps for gasoline and other petroleum based fuels, lowering them to us as consumers.

Enbridge can’t look after what its got, take a look why the spill occurred in the Kalamazoo. They don’t even have enough insurance should a spill occur here. Sending our resources to china is not worth the environmental risk.

Why would you hold a Provincial referendum on a Federal pipeline?

I doubt if Birdmans question would get a different result, in fact I suspect it would be the same. People are set in how they think about this pipeline and its not necessarily based on fact., Emotion seems to be the order of the day.

If the oil goes South on the Keystone Pipeline, or East on the Trans Canada, then this issue will be dead in the water. Of course BC will not get any benefits, or jobs, but thats the price you pay.

As for lefties and economic idiots who prowl this site, seems like Birdman is doing some prowling, so is he a **leftie** or an economic idiot.??

Because it goes through provincial land?

Why would a US state hold a referendum on a national issue, the legalization of marijuana? So that the people in a specific region of a federation will be polled for their opinion so that the federal sate understands how many of its member states feel about a federal matter.

Besides, the pipeline does not belong to the feds, if it is built, it will be private pipeline, not a government pipeline. There is a big difference between government regulating something and government owning something.

“People are set in how they think about this pipeline and its not necessarily based on fact., Emotion seems to be the order of the day.”

Remind you of Council and other governments?

It is called the Human Factor. ;-)

As an in-betweenie …. I resent being lumped together with some others just because I post on this site ….. :-( ..

I am going to be down all day now .. :-(

The Exxon Valdez spill hasn’t been cleaned up yet or have the fines levied against them been paid for those whose lives they destroyed.

gus: “Because it goes through provincial land?”

Like it or not gus, this pipeline will be Federally regulated. The JRP is Federal. This is not the first and likely will not be the last. Let’s stop pretending this is the first pipeline ever built.

Everytime you walk into walmart or buy something with a “Made In China” sticker you are supporting a case in favor of the pipeine. Practicing what you preach goes alot farther than selecting a “yes” or “no” poll on a website. Economics will determine the fate of this proposal. But the western society is too happy and comfortable buying cheap consumer goods instead of picking up an economics book and educating ones self.

Where do i stand on this proposal? To answer that. Both Enbridge and the wingnuts opposing this thing have turned our environmental review process into circus. We need projects like this but i dont think this one will fly under Enbrige.

Don’t forget BCs aboriginals have a legal claim on the majority of the land they think the pipeline will pass through. The governments of Canada have neglected to treat this land as they have done with other aboriginals across Canada. If the Feds try to force this through you can bet there will be countless court cases filed.

To me there are about 3 main points involved with this decision which should not be called the “Enbridge line” but rather the pipeline for “the lifeblood of economic security for foreign countries, vast profits of numerous oil companies, a windfall for Alberta and our federal government as well as the smallest of BENEFICIARIES in all this being Enbridge.”

Q1-What exactly are the environmental risks if it is built to the highest standards and is there enough certainty to the money being available to clean up whatever happens? Who should be responsible for ensuring that and how can ALL of the beneficiaries of this pipeline be held accountable to; a) ensuring it is actually built properly to the highest possible standards and; b) when the spills occur that ALL the beneficiaries are held to pay for the clean up and both of these requirements should be secured with ALL beneficiaries posting a bond big enough to clean-up virtually anything. To me that is as simple as the fact that our country is now over 600 BILLION in debt and our province is reporting a sugar coated deficit of 147 million this year. If that economic reality is ignored in this debate then those who ignore it should themselves have their unreasonable voice ignored as well. That doesn’t mean doing something stupid and with short term desperation but something smart to correct this absolutely important financial REALITY.

Q2-What is the fair amount that BC should receive and/or what benefits are to be granted to this province and/or directly to the people of this province in exchange for this risk and the facilitation of a pipeline that involves so much benefit and money to everyone else? The oil companies profit by selling their oil, AND the overall benefits to the province of Alberta AND what they receive in royalties, AND the feds who receive a huge part..AND the pipeline company itself..AND the Countries who will benefit themselves with the certainty of this supply, that can grow and sustain their economies and improve their standards of living for THEIR people. What about OUR people?

What is the actual “world price of oil”? say what it ACTUALLY costs to the American people? Is it what we see on TV as $80,$100,$150 per barrel or 4 or 5 bucks a gallon OR is it that amount PLUS about 95% of the entire US military costs/lives spent to ensure the oil flows? (which is probably more than the size of Canada’s entire economy)? How about the truth of the net cost to the American TAXPAYING consumer being about double that we see as “the” per barrel price on TV or the price at the pumps. I doubt that China and others are getting a free ride in the extreme costs of trying to keep the wacko middle east from completely imploding and causing the end of the flow of oil from that region. Even Canada and its taxpayers and its soldiers have paid and continue to PAY the costs of protecting others oil interests, their lifeblood oil supplies, their coveted O&G companies and we do that because we are told it is called for as our duty in the name of peace. I think that is called being a “pawn”.

What would happen to the world economy and especially the US and China WHEN and not IF the majority of world oil supplies become trapped in conflict? So the costs of trying to avoid a world war 3 OR when it happens, where is the energy that is available to countries like the US and China and at what cost? Who would control that emergency flow and who would control the costs in such an emergency? The way its being designed by these foreign interests and the way our oblivious governments are approving things it won’t be Canada that has any say and we will be lucky to be able to buy our own oil here in Canada. Even now our economy is being destroyed by the costs of energy and not one peep from our governments to receive a direct price benefit from our own energy supplies and ignoring not even having enough refinery capacity to avoid being price gouged.

Canada was dealt a royal flush hand in the energy world and yet our dizzy governments want to throw away our ace card or fold it entirely and take our lumps like some hopelessly corrupt and/or self defeating of its citizens in a manner like a yet to evolve third world government. Our oil is worth much more than “world price on TV” and everyone knows it except Canada.

Q3-What are the implications to Canada’s energy security and in fact its entire economy over time if this and other export pipelines are built and more important is if the feds approve/keep approving the sale of O&G companies/Canadian O&G rights holders to supposedly wink-wink foreign oil companies which are actually the end user markets such as China? Most people are missing this crucially important question. This is much more important than even the speeding up of the depletion of our energy resources as it is the selling for paper the most valuable assets this country has. It is to say “selling the farm” rather than selling a product from our farm ON OUR TERMS. The estimate that the sale of Nexen to the Chinese oil company will represent their ownership of 20% of the Canadian oilsands rights and just how much leverage does China hold over other oil companies that in fact makes this a far larger level of control? The American based oil companies are a little more autonomous to just selling to anyone,anywhere but they too have to cooperate with the US government strategies worldwide or I am sure they would not be protected by the US military. WHY is it that China is telling the world that it is expanding its navy to be “the biggest in the world”? Its not because of rice.

Actually a poll on 250 means nothing. It just shows the prevailing sentiment of the people that actually come here. It’s surprising and unprofessional to claim the poll means anything.

The article states that the poll is unscientific, so people can draw thier own conclusions.

I would say that the poll is much more effective than 200 women and children standing on the street waving flags for the Winter Games, and then have the City Fathers say we are in support of them. Says who?? We were never given a chance to express our views, however if you conclude that 65000 people did not stand on the street and wave flags, you could conclude that the majority of people oppose the Winter Games. Such is the way of the world.

Most people dont know the difference between diesel and gasoline. Have very little or no knowlege about pipelines, wouldnt be able to tell you where the major pipelines are in Canada. Dont know that the local refinery is serviced by a pipeline from Alberta. Dont know that this pipeline continues on to Kamloops and then to Vancouver, and that oil is exported in ships from the Port of Vancouver. Etc; etc; etc;

They are responding to the news media on stories such as the Exxon Valdez, or the eruption in the Gulf of Mexico, which are at the extreme end of the overall shipping of oil by pipelines. If you want to sweat a bit about pipelines consider this.

There are over 30,000 km of oil and gas pipelines under water in the gulf of mexico. God knows how many floating drilling rigs.
This world is inundated with oil pipelines. In order to maintain our status of living, we have to take the good with the bad.

We must however ensure that all safety measures ;possible are put in place, and sufficient penalties (such as jail terms) to ensure that these measures are adhered to.

“however if you conclude that 65000 people did not stand on the street and wave flags, you could conclude that the majority of people oppose the Winter Games.”

Using that logic, since the HST petition had 705,000 signatures in BC on would conclude that 3.7 million people are in support of the HST…

JB ….”Like it or not gus, this pipeline will be Federally regulated”

I am not sure if you understand my drift. I am a citizen of PG, of BC, of Canada, of North America and of this earth.

If the pipeline is federally regulated, I have a right to comment on it as a result of my relation as one of many millions of people in this country. As a member of this province, there is power in numbers …. so I see absolutely no problem with putting it on a referendum or doing polls, or whatever to get an opinion from the people of the province about a matter which the province as well as its people have a right and a duty to comment whether “for”, “against”, “who cares” or conditional on something.

The headline reads, in part, “250 Pollsters Say No to Pipeline”

That is a lot of pollsters. Who are these polling organizations?

foresight: Very well put. In the case of a war by China, with their ownership of oil companies here and possible ownership of this pipeline or agreements to supply, how could we cut this off if they attacked us? I see it as no different from shipping raw logs out of our country.

Foreign countries cutting our logs just undermines the price we can demand for our lumber.
We are giving away jobs but we don’t get any benefit. A few companies do but not the general population. Don’t know where the royalties go but its not to individuals.
They should all go to a ‘Heritage’ fund like Alberta has from oil.
I personally don’t buy ‘Chinese made’ if I can help it. I would much rather pay a little more for quality and Canadian jobs.
I also do not shop at Walmart at all. Their system will lower all of our standards of living in the long run.It seems though, that people cannot think past the ‘bargain’ they think they got.

If Enbridge wanted to tunnel this pipeline oh, say about a mile underground all the way to a much safer port, then there probably wouldn’t be as much opposition to it. Maybe they will end up doing just that.

foresight wrote: “What would happen to the world economy and especially the US and China WHEN and not IF the majority of world oil supplies become trapped in conflict? …… Who would control that emergency flow and who would control the costs in such an emergency?”

As I understand it, no matter who owns the companies involved, they are companies operating in this country and must follow the laws of the country. Thus, if there is conflict, as there always seems to be, and econoic sanctions are imposed to prevent the free flow of bitumen to ceertain parts of the world, then they have to comply. Yes, war can break out due to lack of access to energy or fear that access will be curtailed.

Canada has energy. If energy will be a cause of major conflict, then Canada will be involved, no matter what. If the line feeds a country it should not, then the transportation system will be a target no matter in which direction we ship it.

Foresight read Palopu. Oil company vast profit, not defending oil companies but what is wrong with profit? Exxon gets about a 10% return. What is wrong with that?

The US if it had the political will can be energy independent. “PLUS about 95% of the entire US military costs/lives spent to ensure the oil flows?” Interesting comment, back it up. The US is not dependent on the Middle East by any means, Canada supplies more oil to the US than the middle east. Frakking around the world is the game changer.

“WHY is it that China is telling the world that it is expanding its navy to be “the biggest in the world”? They have a long long way to go before that happens. If it does are you comfortable with that?

Give me more, Alberta has a bigger deficit than BC. The pipeline will be tunnelled in many spots.

I think I will buy shares in tinfoil hats.

“WHY is it that China is telling the world that it is expanding its navy to be “the biggest in the world”?”

Because they have not heard about airpower?

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/text/eo20120103a1.html

China is increasing landbases. There are peaceful purposes to protect trade routes. But the “sword” is a double edged one … capable of bing used defensively as well as offensively.

“Everytime you walk into walmart or buy something with a “Made In China” sticker you are supporting a case in favor of the pipeine” BS … it is corporate greed that has moved thier factories to low wage countries who are responsible for filling our shelves with cheap junk, not consumers. When I see wire hoop baskets in local hardware stores selling for $50, my first reaction is that it must be homemade locally and that they need to charge that price to cover thier time, then I see a “made in china” sticker on it….are you telling me that the consumer is WANTING that wire basket from china? No they don’t, but corporations sure like to pay about 10 cents to ge it made and sell it over here for ludicrous prices. THAT is WHO is supporting pipelines such as enbridge, so they can continue fueling the slave labour market and charge 1500% markup on things.

It dosent matter what we think or say. If the native lands that this pip[eline is supposed to pass through they cant stop it legaly then this pipeline will be built.

It time we stopped voting for guys like Harper this guy is a dictator and will see to it that tne pipeline is built. Remember the Federal government will be the big winner,
Cheers

“If the pipeline is federally regulated, I have a right to comment on it as a result of my relation as one of many millions of people in this country. As a member of this province, there is power in numbers …. so I see absolutely no problem with putting it on a referendum or doing polls, or whatever to get an opinion from the people of the province about a matter which the province as well as its people have a right and a duty to comment whether “for”, “against”, “who cares” or conditional on something.”

You’re not getting my drift. A referendum would mean nothing. As a citizen of the universe (or however you define yourself), you have a right to make a comment or participate in the JRP if you want. A provincial referendum would be a waste of time and money.

Seamutt..if you get into that business of starting a tinfoil hat business then get them to make you one that fits properly. One that doesn’t sit so low to cover your eyes and ears.

Foresight it comes in extra large and pointed, will that fit ya?

That is an intresting link gus and that sounds like what foresight is refering to.
Seems like more about china defending its trade but who knows when push comes to shove? good points foresight.

Johnny you need to read the constitution. The Supreme Court of Canada ruled on this in 1980.

Look back at history. International competition for markets in a ‘trade war’ where each country is trying to export more than it imports and receive some form of international ‘credit’ convertible into its own currency for the difference has always led to ‘military war’.

The most valuable possession of the great empires of the late 19th century wasn’t having some colony that could feed raw resources to the industrially developed motherland, but in having one where the native population was large enough to absorb the mother country’s otherwise unsaleable industrial exports ‘on credit’.

That was the reason India was always called the ‘jewel in the Crown of the British Empire’. Not for what England could ‘materially’ take out of India, but for what it could ‘materially’ put into India. And it put in far, far more than it ever took out.

While the most valuable possession of Kaiser Wilhelm’s Germany wasn’t any of the lands in Africa it managed to grab when that continent was carved up amongst the European powers, but rather its ‘sphere of influence’ in China. Where a burgeoning surplus of German industrial manufactures could be disposed of ‘on credit’ to the Chinese.

It was this same need to find ‘markets’ that caused Harry Hopkins, FDR’s close advisor, to remark well before the then neutral USA entered World War Two that the US had to get involved because allowing a Nazi victory would ruin American export markets. Which he obviously viewed as being far more important than any defense of ‘human rights’ and ‘democracy’.

And we’re well on our way to repeating the same mistakes of the past all over again in this inane belief we seem unable to shake that every place can somehow export more than it imports endlessly and ‘get rich’ doing it.

But.

Who supports the corporations.. Your consumer dollars..

Once again economics 101.

It seems that my points are not clear. I’m not saying that China is going to go to war with us anytime soon but that they are wary of the risks their economy has in relying on foreign resources such as energy. They are just being prudent in planning their future of supplying their needs and safeguarding their interests.

Palapu says most people know little or nothing about pipelines and I would agree with that. However it is important that people try to find the truth and base their positions in a sensible manner as this is actually a very important issue to the environment and to the Canadian economy.

I was hoping that people would see the merits in looking at the issues for what they are rather than just saying “no because of the environment risks” or a “yes because they think it is an economic windfall”. Its more complicated than that and it is important to get this right.

On one end of the spectrum we could have a/several environmental disasters that no one can afford to clean up. On the other end of the spectrum we say “no at any cost” and end up an economic basket case foregoing this opportunity to improve our financial position of our country and that means improving our standards of living. Remember that a broke country is a desperate country that has no options to protect anything but the next nickel it can get and what other tradeoffs are worse than this tradeoff?

I can tell you from experience that there are two approaches to stopping something or support getting something from the JRP. One is to assert what you don’t want and reasons why. The second and often overlooked way is asking for what you do want and provide the reasons why. It is a socio-environmental-economic review and each of those three things are to be evaluated and they are to include what is presented and heard.

There is no such thing as no risk and there is no such thing that money doesn’t matter or has no limit. But there are ways to demand/request the measures to mitigate the risks by ensuring it is built properly and there is accountability. The cleanup bonds need to be in place and big enough to fix what can go wrong. At the same time demanding/requesting the measures which this country requires to maximize Canadian benefits within the financial bounds of this project. That is much bigger than Enbridge by itself or the current revenue share offered.

Canada will look after what the federal government wants as it means to the whole of Canada. BC will look after what its provincial government sees as what it wants but the social license to act on our behalf is of course a public/political set of dynamics such that the HST just taught everyone.

It is important to realize that individuals requests for what translates into direct benefits to them is what our governments need to hear and evaluate and they will implement to the degree possible to achieve the necessary levels of social approval. It does matter that people speak up but it matters far more that they speak up with sensible and reasonable requests rather than “no at any cost”.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2012/12/07/cnooc-nexen-takeover.html?cmp=rss

I think the address by our PM just said volumes to what the nexen deal meant. I have no idea why they approved these two aquisitions knowing what they now admit.