Well, wonder why Green did not show up? Did she not say she was going to? Was there not a Quorum at this meeting? Kroehler, Everitt,Skakun, Frizzell, and Krause showed up did they not? Oh no, it was a quorum :)

It was not a quorum, as a matter of fact thank you to those councillors that showed up. It was nice to see them get involved. Shari should of been there. maybe she was out with Stolz tonight.

lol maybe she was out with Stolz

Well done Meisner! Also well done Roy Stewart, Peter Ewart, Sharon Hurd, Jo Graber and all the Haldi neighborhood reps for excellent presentations. The majority of comments were not in favor of putting this centre in the Haldi Road neighborhood –right ideas, wrong location. It was disappointing to hear that the proponents of the Women’s Treatment Centre for Haldi were not interested in working together with the Hudta Lake Treatment Group even though Hudta Lake would welcome a joint effort of all groups/levels of government, etc. to help women overcome addition problems …way to go Sharon Hurd. The City was criticized for their actions in the handling of this OCP amendment to accommodate the investor in paving the way for the rezoning to allow the Haldi project to go ahead. Many suggested the Haldi loction be scrapped and a new location be found that would not compromise the OCP. Way to go Haldi neighborhood….you presented yourselves well and hopefully Queen Green will realize that many can see that the Haldi project is not a feasible option and the investor should stop bulldozing his way into the neighborhood, take his lumps and leave the Haldi neighborhood alone. Maybe this might even relieve the city of another court case and spare the taxpayers more expense.

007, just to be cheeky but I think there was a quorum, guesswhat forgot to list Mr. Hall in attendance as well. Only missing were Green, Stolz and Wilbur….

Regardless, was heartening to see so many council members out. Shows some hope and good to see the effort to their fact finding to getting the larger picture to hopefully squash this whole fiasco. Was well done, congrats to the organizers and presenters – from all sides.

Shoulder to Shoulder we shall reunite…. the city must decline this application…lets start from the beginning… work together and help all those that need help with addiction

I hope the Haldi road people are still persuing leaving PG and become part of the Regional District. Every property owner in PG should send a letter apposing the changes to the OCP.

The residents of the Haldi area should set up an information booth in front of Prince George Motors, Wood Wheaton Honda, Wood Wheaton GM and the Bid Group office in the old Post office.

Haldi fought the changes to the OCP in court and won, maybe it is time to take the fight to the proponents, if they begin to feel it in the wallet they might sit up and take notice.

I see our Mayor Shari Green, Wilbur and Stolz decided they had better things to do on this important issue for the entire city of Prince George.

Also Craig Wood and Brian Fehr the owners of the Haldi property, do not have much interest in their investment. Why did those two not show up to answer some question? I am sure if asked why they did not donate the property to the not for profit Northern Recovery folks, or how much would our tax dollars contribute to the pockets of their already full pockets would have been a bit uncomfortable for them.

The people that are making the pitch to convince the residence to put this centre in are doing a horrible job. As the 3rd reading on the first attempt, and won the hearts of council to vote in favour of the zoning even though it was not consistent with the OCP by crying and making them feel as though if voting with their heads and not their hearts, that they are to be responsible for all addicted women roaming our streets is not an approach that can work.

In my opinion if Dr Sutter and the crew can not figure out that it is unreasonable for any neighbourhood to allow a business in no matter what the nature of that business is without consulting and engaging in community talks is clearly a silver spoon attitude and is going to be removed. If it means no it means no. This bully tactic is a clear message to the public that they have forgotten that in blue collar world we still have something as rich as their all mighty dollars. ‘That is community’. This is worth fighting for as it’s the back bone of our country and is the reason you are losing this battle.

If this NRCW crew is on a mission to give women, not just in Prince George but also across Canada a recovery centre, you have my support. But the message was made clear last night to council, city and to the Northern Recovery folks, it needs to be planned out involving the public to locate a suitable location. It appears that Sharon Hurd of Phoenix Transition House has a solution. If you choose to not engage her again to come up with a location that has the infrastructure to support 30 people then the message is that you simply are not willing to part with this huge opertunity to make a million or two from tax payers as Baldi Huges previous owner did. And don’t kid anyone as Brian Fehr is still on the board of Baldi Hughs treatment Centre and knows the potential of Haldi $$$. With all the government connections and with the same template as Baldi Hughs sale back to the provincial government one might assume the same business plan for Haldi road School. IMO

What does the owners of the site have to do with it. Do you think Craig Wood or Brian Fehr have any focus on this at all? DO you think that they didn’t know the battle that they would have with the locals when they got involved in this? Don’t forget that you put up a booth in front of those businesses you don’t only affect the owners (although hardly at all). You affect the people that are just trying to make a living working there. Keep the fight in the political ring where it belongs.

Posted by: NoWay on January 11 2013 7:09 AM

I hope the Haldi road people are still persuing leaving PG and become part of the Regional District. Every property owner in PG should send a letter apposing the changes to the OCP.
————————————————
It still is work in progress. We need to do another fund raiser to retain the lawyer.It will happen soon.

I am all for it as we do not belong in City or its tax structure for rual property with little city service.

Lots of talk by people who think they know about the issue:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2013/01/11/bc-addictions-centre-prince-george.html?cmp=rss

[url]http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2013/01/11/bc-addictions-centre-prince-george.html?cmp=rss[url]

Hope that link is direct now.

It is no accident that Wood and Fehr are staying in the background and let Marshall Smith(former) or Dr Sutter(current) be the talking heads for the facility. They will continue to do so until it is time to ring the register when they flip it to the province. They are not giving any thought to how this may affect property values by shoving it dead center of a rural community. A little tit for tat might just be the ticket, dragging those that have the most to gain out of the shadows and into the spotlight.

As for keeping it in the political arena, what is the point as from everything I have seen the minds of mayor and council are already made up, the wishes of the residents be damned!

to 57Chevy……well said. Agree with you 100%. Now if we could get the rest of PG on the same track! I think it’s starting to happen from the outside support the Haldi Road Neighbourhood got last nite. Sharon Hurd (with Phoenix Transition and also with the Hudta Lake Treatment Group) is willing to co-operate with other groups to make a treatment centre happen…all the Northern Recovery Centre is interested in is bullying their way into Haldi road so investors can make a big profit, not the women in need of treatment. If they were, then they would work with Hudta Lake instead of against them. There is only so much Prov. funding that can be expected and a united approach with Hudta makes much more sense than trying to beat them to the Provincial Pot. If this were to happen, the investor would be stuck with his investment and that is what this is all about.

[url]http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2013/01/11/bc-addictions-centre-prince-george.html?cmp=rss[url]

Hope that link is direct now.

I have to admit that if I owned the property next to the old Haldi Lake school I would be opposed to the recovery centre.

People keep saying this is a bad location for such a facility. I just looked at it on Google maps (now with street view) and I don’t understand that criticism. A park lke rural setting but close to town with an existing building. Vehicles accessing via Blackwater/Leslie road would only pass 2 or 3 houses on the way. It appears that there is only one neighbouring property that would even be able to see recovery centre from their property.

There dosen’t seem to be that much of a NIMBY argument.

Am I looking at the wrong location?

Why does the new therapeutic wording say “related to substance dependence, mental health issues or both”. Mr Smith had presented that to be admitted you had to have addiction issues, not sure where the new ‘board’ stands on this issue.

Their first patient may be Kayla, she is a perfect candidate as she appears to have underlying mental health issues.

I dont think that there was anyone at the Vanway School meeting that were opposed to a treatment centre for women being built in Prince George. In fact it seemed every one agreed that this a good and necessary project.

So whats the problem???? LOCATION,LOCATION, LOCATION.

Change the location and the problem is solved.

What we have here is the proponents, and the City working against the residents of Haldi Road, and other residents in the City.

In other words we could say that perhaps we have 5/6 Councillors, 1 Mayor, and 6 to 8 proponents in favour of this location, and hundreds upon hundreds of people in the area, and many more in the City as a whole against it.

Do we really beleive that those elected councillors, and the Mayor are representing the wishes of the majority of the citizens of Prince George, or are they in fact representing the wishes of a very small number of people? That is the question.

I suggest to you that the latter is the case, not only is it apparent for Haldi Road, it was also apparent for the Bottle Depot, the Native Friendship Centre, at 17 and Victoria, the Police Station and its location, and the original site of the the Community Energy System, on 4th and Scotia.

We are not being properly represented by our elected officials in Prince George.

So what does this mean??? It means that we have a severe case of taxation without representation. We pay our taxes, and get whatever the hell the City decides. What they decide is usually good for busiess and corporations, but not so good for **bona fide** taxpayers.

This needs to change. We need our Councillors to take a little time out of their busy lives, and reflect on what their jobs really are. They need to take a stand against those proposals that are always being pushed by vested interests, and find a balance. If they dont do this, and do it soon, they will have effectively ended their political careers in Prince George.

People are not happy with what is taking place in this City, we wan, and are entitled to a voice on Council and our concerns need to be at the very least equal to those of business, and vested interests.

Have a nice day.

PS . Should read Native Friendship Centre at 17th and Queensway, not Victoria.

kolberg, every try driving Leslie road from the Blackwater? You can barely make it in a 4×4 come spring/summer never mind a delivery truck. That stretch of Leslie Road actually doesn’t exist per se, think it was built by someone wanting to subdivide but was turned down due to some density issues in the area.

To kolberg

The Haldi location if researched does not support the infrastructure to support 30 people. L&M engineering’s Credibility is in the toilet after they fabricated the water study. Now L&M wants to be trusted with the Lagoon proposal. Once bitten twice shy. Can the roads handle 15000 litres a day at 50% road restriction? NO IT CAN NOT. Blackwater access is a privately owned road and can not be used. I hope this helped.

kolberg – That access is impassable. Even in a truck with 4×4 the ruts and mudholes are a challenge. Winter is even worse – rarely sees a plow. It might be plowed now due to the focus on the community but only for that reason.

How does a facility for 30 people fit into a neighbourhood full of single family dewllings? I don’t live in the area, and a facility like that would not fit with my neighbourhood either.

The amendment to the OCP needs to be stopped. The amendment affects the entire city of PG, not just Haldi Road.

kolberg – That access is impassable. Even in a truck with 4×4 the ruts and mudholes are a challenge. Winter is even worse – rarely sees a plow. It might be plowed now due to the focus on the community but only for that reason.

How does a facility for 30 people fit into a neighbourhood full of single family dewllings? I don’t live in the area, and a facility like that would not fit with my neighbourhood either.

The amendment to the OCP needs to be stopped. The amendment affects the entire city of PG, not just Haldi Road.

Gladstone school is empty. Right on the corner of Simon Fraser and Gladstone. I am quite sure the foks in that area will have more of a heart than those “mean” folks around Haldi Rd. Right? Lotsa water, sewage, power,too. On a bus line. Why not there? I’m sure the neighbours wouldn’t mind. But then again if they said no, it will be quite a job to start an anti-NIMBY campaign in that area.

I just ‘drove’ Leslie road on Google Maps and I agree that thing is a mess. It would have been funny watching the little google car drive it.

Thanks for the feedback everyone.

I have one question. What location in Prince George do you propose for this type of facility? And I am looking for serious answers. The goal is to provide a location that will help women recover from addictions but also not negatively impact neighbouring land owners. Maybe if someone can come up with a good alternative the city will listen. I know that is a stretch but as a citizen of PG I would like to know whether the city is ignoring obvious alternatives.

I just ‘drove’ Leslie road on Google Maps and I agree that thing is a mess. It would have been funny watching the little google car drive it.

Thanks for the feedback everyone.

I have one question. What location in Prince George do you propose for this type of facility? And I am looking for serious answers. The goal is to provide a location that will help women recover from addictions but also not negatively impact neighbouring land owners. Maybe if someone can come up with a good alternative the city will listen. I know that is a stretch but as a citizen of PG I would like to know whether the city is ignoring obvious alternatives.

Gladstone school. See above. I’m serious.

I doubt that any users of the proposed facility will use Blackwater and Leslie roads, Haldi or Bunce off of highway 16 will be the routes of choice IMO.(Notice all the red signs along Leslie Road :)

“Treatment centre shuttered”, just reading about the Citizen story from yesterday’s paper, can’t find it on the website.

Kelowna is closing their dug and alcohol and detox program. “The closure will leave the Okanagan without any comprehensive detox-and-addiction services programs other than hospitals.”

“Crossroads facility is 1.3 million in debt. The not for profit society has faced financial difficulty since it opened in 1975 and last year lost 150,000 provincial gaming grant, forcing it to close recovery housing for men and women”

If this is such a hyper-needed thing in BC why are they closing? “The societies board will sell the building and pay off its debts”

With the amount of money they have sunk into the Haldi Road rural residential property I think Woods and Fehr will fight this to the bitter end and not even consider more suitable locations.

Why they would strip the place(from what I have heard)without all the proper zoning and permits in place is beyond me….almost like they had some assurances from someone, a Green light if you will, that all the pieces will fall into place(nod nod wink wink:(

“Maybe if someone can come up with a good alternative the city will listen. I know that is a stretch but as a citizen of PG I would like to know whether the city is ignoring obvious alternatives.”

There is the problem right there. The City has decimated its planning department, hired a bunch of neophytes without an experienced planner to guide them in the working world rather than the academic world.

On top of that, I suspect that the number of physical planners who understand the layout of cities are non existent.

It is the responsibility of the City to set out guidelines of site attributes that such a facility should posses. They have none. That is why they have proposed such general and weak changes to the OCP. Given those, one could put a centre virtually anywhere. In fact, I do not think we need an OCP or zoning. Remember, zoning exists in recognition that land uses can be characterized and grouped based on those characteristics and then located with respect to compatibility. To do so, planners act on the basis of past experiences in many communities, their own studies, their own experiences, and their understanding of what is best practice. Yes, this profession also has a compendium of best practices.

This is not a community think tank. That should have happened during the framing of the current OCP. That process took at least 2 years and they managed to not address this issue. The question I have to ask is why. Forgot about it? Groups involved were too divisive? City did not know how to handle it?

To me, that is the biggest mystery in this whole thing and the biggest black mark on the City Administration and planning department.

I think the location is great but I have one concern, the Crossroads Treatment center in Kelowna is closing in 90 days, they are $l.3 million in debt,they need $132 a day per bed but are only funded $92 a day per bed by Interior Health. Will our new center be able to make a go of it??

The largest issue facing the ‘neighbourhood’ is the second phase, sure they are ‘trying’ to work with the ‘community’ but if this first phase fails and starts to go belly up the zoning is there for a 30 bed detox if they so wish. Or if the ‘board’ decides they need to change things to bring in revenue even though Dr Sutter now says they will not take RCMP referrals that is always subject to change. That change can happen without any notice or ‘feedback’ from the ‘neighbourhood’

Or if this project leaves completely the building is there zoned for 30 people and needs nothing further to start any institution within the 30 ‘persons’ including forced incarceration for forced rehab.

BTW, the notion that the recovery centre is a residential occupancy is a total fallacy.

The primary use of the site is a commercial use to provide a therapeutic counselling service to individuals in a group setting. In order to provide the particular program, it is necessary to provide it in a 24 hour controlled setting. In fact, it is so controlled that it will require tall fences and surveillance cameras around the facility, I assume to primarily keep those housed in the facility from leaving it unescorted.

If the business of therapeutic counselling was not to be conducted there, the facility would become a large group home, far exceeding the size norm of such a facility, especially in rural residential zones.

So, the City is pulling the wool of the eyes of its Citizens. We need to get back to some common practice as well as best practice definitions.

The point you bring up, slinky, is one which was not brought up last night. It is the very reason one must not get into details of how a land use will be operated. Too many rezoning applications are approved on the reputation of the proponents. Even the best of proponents can fail and then the site will be ready for someone else to come in and operate it differently. So, those words uttered by the proponents are very condescending in the belief that the people opposed to this are not knowledgeable about such matters.

It is land use, plain and simple.
1.Is this a residential, commercial, institutional primary use?
2.If it is residential primary, then defend that position.

Also the notion they mentioned in the first go around that right now they could open a 6 bed facility is also false IMO.

The definition for ‘Community Care Minor’ under the current zoning does not cover their operations if you actually do some digging (it is basically referring to a old age home type care). They are not ‘community care’ by zoning definition but as you say full ‘institutional’ with fences and cameras. Last time I checked there were no such things at Rainbow Lodge

“the biggest black mark on the City Administration and planning department”

Ghost of Derek Bates strikes again, all the more reason to take the time required to find the proper person for city manager.

His time in the corner office shows what happens when an under qualified person is picked with the expectation that they will grow into the job and the number one reason that removing “acting” from Ms Soltis’ title will be a huge mistake.

For the proponents, there is a notion which has begun to be recognized by the courts that one has to be careful since some form or zoning can be discriminatory. The one which has been changed considerably is who can live in a Single Family Residential zone. Specifically, “what is a family”?

Excluding the use of “residential therapeutic counselling” from a community would, for instance, not be allowed by any court, I am sure. However, the community I am thinking about is the community of Prince George. In fact, a few decades ago PG tried to do just that and lost in the Supreme Court of Canada.

However, we are dealing with a neighbourhood within a community called Prince George. If push came to shove, this might be another case that could land there.

Too bad things have to come to this. I thought we had wiser people. If any of that is being kept under wraps, this is not the time to keep hiding it.

Has anyone looked at the article in the P.C. Citizen? The pictures caption reads “Haldi Road Treatment Centre.” Gee that was quick.

It is posted in their online edition as well now. (But the article on Crossroads is not, at least I cannot find it)

Wonder how many full page car ads were in the paper this week?

A “Green” light is hitting the nail on the head. The investors were looking for a property of this nature for a reason, not just to see if they could find some good cause to donate it too. They got very busy renovating and spending more money building decks etc. before they had proper permits and approved zoning. This doesnt sound like something savy business men would do without some assurances that it would be a go. If this was their way of doing business as a rule they wouldn’t be in business for long. It has been a back door deal from the start and it is slowly coming to light that is the case. It will be intersting to see what unfolds next. They could care less about the neighborhood and the only thing that matters is their bottom line.

Slinky ; The Article you could not find is in the Citizen Jan 10th page 5.

If the Crossroads Treatment Centre in Kelowna closes in 90 days, What could this mean for Prince George??

Who is running the planning department? Why were there not an answer last night by the city? Was not the position of the city planning being there to answer question? Why did they attended the meeting for?

It amazes me at the end of the meeting L&M mentioned about the septic fields. Why did the “city planner” not answer the question that was directed at the city in regards to another shut down school – The old Nechako school?

Can you (the city)tell the community why & what the difference is between the old Nechako school and the old Haldi School is? Owners of the old Nechako School were told by the city planning department that their application for some type of live-in institution was turned down. The proponent was advised it would very likely fail due to it not being hooked into a formal sewage system. It must be noted this proposal did not go to council but planning department had responded and provided advice on the basis of City Policy! Since there (is also) no sewer service in the Haldi area, why should this not come under the same ‘City Policy’?

This question was also posed to all members of the city council and no one has of yet replied to the question.

So who is running the planning of this city? L&M or the city?

Hudta will never fly. How many of you have been out there lately? Where will the money come from to bring the entire complex up to standard? The taxpayers?
The proponents of Hudta admitted they have been trying since 2007 to to get organized and are still waiting for “treaty negotiations” How many marginalized women will wait for treaty negotiations?
Hudta is proposed to be harm reduction and not even close to opening
Haldi is abstinence and should have been open now
Someone tell these marginalized women to wait a few more months until we sort this out

ImFrank – Perhaps you should be looking to where the stem of the problem started and that is with the province. My suggestion is contact your provincial reps and ask them to tell these marginalized women. The province shut down the programs and never did do what they promised and that was to start another one up! Ask yourself why Northern Health has not started anything up after all these years…..

It seems that a number of people on these posts think that there are all kinds of marginalized women just waiting in the wings to go into a treatment centre.

Perhaps someone could give us an indication of how many people in Pr George are actually waiting for a place to get treatment. We should keep in mind that the Phoenix Transition house looks after a number of women, and want to continue to do that, either at Phoenix, or at Hudta Lake.

In any event dont be fooled into thinking that we have hundreds of women just waiting to voluntarily go into treatment. That is a fallacy. Some of these women will over a period of time be directed into treatment by Corrections BC, and a number of them will come from other parts of the Province.

So unless you have some specific numbers, to back up the need for a centre, I suggest that you are just blowing smoke.

Have a nice day.

“Haldi is abstinence and should have been open now
Someone tell these marginalized women to wait a few more months until we sort this out”

Sounds like a threat to me. Threaten the community that stands in the way that they will be blamed for delay in getting a facility operational if they do not give up.

I say that part of the blame lies with the proponents for not doing their homework. Which, of course, raises the question of what else they are not doing their due dligence on when it comes to the actual operation of a faciliy.

I say the other part of the blame lies with the City for manipulating the OCP to suit their needs immediately after the OCP was revised with so-called community consultation.

There is another problem. Look at the floor layout in regards to the proposed centre on the city website and again it looks like the citizens are being conned. There are to be 2 occupants to a room according to the centre and according to the gov’t regulations only two to a room and each room requires so many metres. The centre’s plan shows a room with three beds. So this tells me either someone has not done their homework or there will be an expansion to the centre if it is passed!

Due diligence on when it comes to the actual operation of a facility – Sharon Hurd’s comments last night and others were in the lines of – Northern Women’s Centre is not a good idea – Let the “EXPERTS” run it. Got to agree with her on this one.

Even Hudta Lake does not get up and running do to “treaty negotiations” The experience that the Hudta and Phoenix staff has in the area compared to the Women’s centre is like comparing apples to oranges!

Hauling water? does not make sense – 30 women who want to do their laundry, shower 2 – 3 x a day, flush the toilet , leave taps running. Money spent on hauling in water could pay a staff position, purchase food, supplies, the many things necessary for a treatment centre.

to Gus, got to agree with you, the blame for the delay should not be placed on the Haldi community who are only asking that the City follow their own Official Community Plan. The blame should be placed on the investor who didn’t do his homework and on the Northern Recovery Centre proponents, who are going along and trying to push this Centre into a neighborhood who are opposed, on legal grounds. Surely City Council must realize this is going to cause further delay if it ends up back in court again. As a taxpayer, I am getting fed up with the City trying to accommodate the investor by changing the OCP, rezoning, etc. and subjecting us to more waste of our hard earned tax dollars. I am all for helping the women get treatment, the sooner the better. Let’s do it legally, get it done sooner and spare the taxpayers more expense in court costs. We are already paying for one court case the city lost the first go around on this. That was totally unnecessary and should have been avoided, if only the City had done their homework or heeded Lawyer Stewart when he pointed out their mistake at 3rd reading of the first attempt to rezone Haldi.

Saw Lawyer Stewart throw down the gauntlet at the November 10th hearing too… think the planning department and the City are actually arrogant enough to ignore his seasoned words of warning a second time????????????