Let’s see, 500 workers x $300 average cost. $150,000 a day in saved wages. in two weeks it would save 1.5 million dollars.

In two weeks, the streets will be filled with garbage and bears. The sewer will likely be overflowing here and there, Watermains busted and washing out streets.

Seems like the city has the wrong approach. Look at the attrition method. The union is to protect the worker, not the position. When a person retires, shuffle people around, loose some services and change course.

Reduce the management and dreamers out of the ivory tower.

Focus on what the people think is important.

The more is contracted out, the higher the ratio of excluded managers to included trades and professional workers.

So, the ratio depends totally on what business is to be conducted in-house and what is to be conducted outside of City staff through consultants or trade contractors.

So, for instance, when one has a capable internal planning staff who can come up with the type of work which has been contracted out in the last 10+ years – OCP reviews, zoning by law reviews, Planned Unit Development for the PG Golf and Curling Club, SMART Growth (partly paid for by the province), etc. – one would need more technical and professional staff who would be included and would not require additional excluded staff to oversee.

If there is any of the work which is outsourced, the excluded administrator along with an included professional/technical assistant will be sufficient to handle the administrative oversight of contracted out work.

“Focus on what the people think is important.”

That is transparency. That is inclusion. I was included in at least one of the processes as well as being on several committees of Council.

Anyone can put their name forward. Some people are happy with that process, others are not.

Some are simply critics without being involved, supposedly because they are jaded with the process.

At least I can provide critiques since I have participated. No, I am not happy with the way the process is working in most cases. We cannot fix the process if people simply stand on the sidelines.

Remember, we are a diverse crowd, the same as any community. In a diverse crowd, there will always be more powerful interest groups and less powerful interest groups. The same as any process which tries to reach consensus, it is often advantageous for similar minded groups to join forces.

Also, remember that while City Councillors in larger groups are not supposed to do that outside of Council, there is no restriction on citizen groups to do that. ;-)

gus … I agree with your analysis as far as it goes … however, other corporations (private and public sector) are contracting out technical and professional services as well as trades and consultants… if you support the contracting out model, then any work conducted electronically or online can be contracted out … this includes accounting, GIS, design, payroll, etc., in other words most technical and professional work … the City always seems quick to contract out the “visible” work like snow removal while the “invisible” worker (i.e. GIS, IT) appears to be left alone (look at the numbers) … I acknowledge your passion for the professional/technical aspect of the operations but if you believe in contracting out, then look across the entire spectrum and scope … at the end of the day, you may find that in times of trades shortages, this may be the last group you want to contract out … just another perspective IMHO

“There has to be give and take” -President Gary Campbell.

Seems to me that there is no give on the part of the unions it is simply a matter of take or if worse comes to worse take a little less. Where is the give part of the equation?

The union’s job is to make sure no jobs are lost and to get as much as it can for its members. What taxpayers ultimately have to pay doesn’t figure into the equation.

Or if they do go on strike the citY gov can follow the liberals lead… When the teachers went on strike the gov saved 37 million in wages..then had big media coverage of them giving 30 million back to education..no clue where the other 7 million went…

Without knowing what the current working conditions are for the people represented by CUPE locals 1048 and 399 AND the details of the proposed contract, it really is impossible to arrive at any type of informed conclusion on this situation.

Maybe the union is asking for far too much or maybe the workers are getting a raw deal. How would one know?

People seem to forget sometimes that the City workers have familys, contribute to this community and work just as hard as any person at safeway or in a mill, yet when they are asked to take cutbacks and not even a cost of living increase by a Council that has voted themslves raises, is it any wonder that they are Forced to take a hardline? I am sure the prospect of earning strike pay when they have mortgages to pay and kids to feed is FAR from appealing but Mayor Green (The WORST Mayor this fair city has EVER had!!) has made this city a dictatorship and has no regard for equality and fairness towards the folks that are plowing the streets, collecting the garbage, chasing the dogs, cleaning the streets and fixing the icerinks etc etc. I am aware of what was offered and to put it bluntly the City and Council and their high priced lawyer from vancouver should be ashamed to even call that an offer when it wouldnt even cover the rising cost of Gas! FOR SHAME MAYOR GREEN AND COHORTS

Just for your consideration (to ALL these union bashers) Stat holidays, 40hr work week, Overtime pay, shift differential, raises, job security, pension plans, life insurance, medical benefits and many other positive things you find in many workplaces are the direct result of UNIONS!! Without the formation of early unions, we would all be still living under the Fife system. Know your history please.
Now, that we have recapped elementary social studies I would like to point out that just about every union in our province has either just been through contract bargaining or are in the midst of it right now. When unions as a whole are asking for/ and getting cost of living increases, this normally produces a trickle-down effect to the non-union workplaces (good for everyone..yes? Unless you own a business, in which case it may cut into your profit margin).
To those making comments concerning contracts, are you certain that this is just about a money issue? The City has been publically hacking apart it’s workforce for over 2 years, the province has been tearing up legal employment contracts even longer. I would hesitate a guess that maybe there is more to this current wave of labour strife than just money. I know I will be looking for more answers regarding this rejected contract before making any judgement.

Oh yeah, and just so we are clear, I have worked in unionized labour and non-unionized labour before. So I have seen both sides of this fence.

Tell us what you demanded, Knowledge88. What kind of pay raise? What kind of benefits package. Don’t just come on here and whine about what you were offered. Oh and, no you don’t work as hard as everyone else. Far from it.

watchdog..read a book. It is called the labour code. Forget about kids in Welsh coalmines at the turn of the century, we are way past that, and I don’t think we owe unions anything. By that convoluted logic we have clearcuts and pollution to thank union workers for.

Oh and I bet you didn’t work non-union while you were a card carrying union member.

Unions are why we have benefits, why we have a retirement fund, medical, dental etc. they also where a huge part of safety being brought into the work place.

I see lots of whinning and complaining about unions but think of the good they have brought to all your jobs. If you don’t have a union job and don’t have benefits etc.. It’s not the unions fault.. It’s your choice of jobs…you must have applied to,get the job.. So don’t complain about not having what the unions jobs offer.. It was your choice…..

“People seem to forget sometimes that the City workers have familys, contribute to this community and work just as hard as any person at safeway or in a mill, yet when they are asked to take cutbacks and not even a cost of living increase by a Council that has voted themslves raises…”

Common union rhetoric. The taxpayer funds CUPE salaries, end of story. If the City gave back their so-called raise money, it would be a drop in the bucket.

The private sector has taken cutbacks for years while the public sector has not. We as taxpayers cannot continue to sustain a bloated and self-entitled public service.

So called raise money Johnny?

Its documented that they did give themselves raises, and their “drop in the bucket” is equal or less than what the CUPE is asking.

The private sector took between 2 and insane % increases in contract talks this year.

And while I’m not about to go verify these numbers myself, another poster said

X-x-X-x-X-x-X-x-X-x-X-x-X-x-X-x-X-x-X-x-X x-X-x-X-x-X-x-X-x-X-x-X-x-X-x-X-x-X-x-X-x

Comment Posted by: Smooth on September 6 2013 5:28 PM
For everyone thinking they should take zero. Here is a list of recent contracts.

Aramark Canada (Rogers Arena) and Unite-Here local 40

9% over 3 years, December 12, 2011 to December 11, 2014

Compass Group Canada and United Steelworkers Union local 2009

6% over 3 years, December 6, 2010 to December 5, 2013

LifeLabs and BCGSEU

3% over 3 years, January 1, 2012 to December 31, 2014

Philips Ledalite and CAW local 114

18% over 3 years, June 1, 2011 to May 31, 2014

Gibraltar Mines and CAW local 3018

11% over 4 years, June 1, 2012 to May 31, 2016

Brown Bros. Ford and IAMAW

6% over 3 years, April 1, 2012 to March 31, 2015

G4S Cash Solutions and CAW local 114

6% over 3 years, February 1, 2012 to January 31, 2015

BCAA and COPE local 378

6% over 3 years, October 1, 2011 to September 30, 2014

Canadian Pacific Railway and IBEW

15% over 5 years, January 1, 2013 to December 31, 2017

Fortis BC Energy and COPE local 378

6% over 3 years, April 1, 2012 to March 31, 2015

Canadian National Railway and IBEW

12% over 4 years, January 1, 2013 to December 31, 2016

Regional and Community Colleges and FPSE

4% over 2 years, April 1, 2012 to March 31, 2014

BCIT and BCGSEU (Vocational Instructors)

4% over 2 years, April 1, 2012 to March 31, 2014

University of Victoria and CUPE (Sessional Instructors)

3.38% over 2 years, May 1, 2012 to April 30, 2014

Health Employers’ Association of BC and Community Bargaining Association

3% over 2 years, April 1, 2012 to March 31, 2014

Okanagan Regional Library and CUPE local 1123

4.5%over 3 years, January 1, 2011 to December 31, 2013

City of Coquitlam and International Association of Firefighters

6% over 2 years, January 1, 2010 to December 31, 2011

City of Port Alberni and CUPE local 118

9.75% over 4 years, January 1, 2010 to December 31, 2013

City of Richmond and CUPE local 718

6.75% over 4 years, January 1, 2012 to December 31, 2015

City of Vancouver and CUPE local 391 (Library Board)

6.75% over 4 years, January 1, 2012 to December 31, 2015

WorkSafeBC and Compensation Employees’ Union

4% over 2 years, April 1, 2012 to March 31, 2014

Legal Services Society of BC and BCGSEU

6% over 3 years, April 1, 2012 to March 31, 2015

X-x-X-x-X-x-X-x-X-x-X-x-X-x-X-x-X-x-X-x-X x-X-x-X-x-X-x-X-x-X-x-X-x-X-x-X-x-X-x-X-x

knowledge88,

It might be wise to think about the situation you’re in rationally, and not get bogged down in emotion. Emotion has its place, but not in a financial transaction. Certainly, there is a lot at stake for the workers, but that only calls for more rationality, not reactionary rhetoric as you’ve displayed above. This is a negotiation, and these are how things work. The party with the greatest perceived leverage will come as hard as they can, hoping for a compromise in the end that is closer to their position than yours.

Clearly, the workers have indicated their dissatisfaction with the offer returning a high percentage in favour of refusing the City’s final offer and almost as high a strike vote. Let your union reps now take the offer back to management.

Personally, I see no point in bashing Council or Management at this point. It will not bolster your position. In fact, it might have the opposite effect. They are operating from a position of having a mandate, and what is that mandate? To reduce costs. Wages are a huge part of municipal taxation, so expect them to pay strict attention to these costs rising. I wouldn’t expect anything less from them. I also wouldn’t expect anything less from labour groups than to lobby hard for increases. It’s not personal though.

I wish you the best, but honestly I think you’re going to have to take one on the chin this time. As we all do from time to time. I think the appetite for big wage demands is low and you have to think about what’s best for you and your family, like you mentioned. I looked at a CUPE site, and I’m not sure if it’s the same for you, but strike pay is $40/day if you man the picket lines. That’s not a lot of money for people who have homes, cars and kids to feed. So, how long could you afford to be on strike before you end up losing more than you could have ever gained. let’s make some assumptions so that we can contextualize this problem:

$27/hr avg. worker wage
40hrs/week avg. hours worked
2% rate increase for all years of contract
30% marginal tax rate for $43k – $75k
2,080 hrs/year

Now assuming you got your 2% annual increase, your wage rate would grow as follows:

2013 $27.54 incr. gross $1,123 net $786
2014 $28.09 incr. gross $1,146 net $802
2015 $28.65 incr. gross $1,169 net $818
Total $ 1.65 incr. gross $3,347 net $2,406

Your current daily earnings are:

$27 X 8 = $216 X 70% = $151.20

Therefore, if you’re striking and picketing, you lose $110.20/day ($151.20-40).

By my calculations, it will take the following number of days to lose those increases. (please note that this is just a spit balling exercise and doesn’t factor in the time value of money or the implications to other deductions, pension contributions and such:

7.07 days picketing cost you 2013 increase
7.21 days more will cost you 2014 increase
7.36 days more will cost you 2015 increase
21.64 days on the picket line and you’ll break even and by the 22nd day, you’ll be losing money you’ll never get back. That’s about a month on the picket line, and probably won’t be snowing yet even. Don’t forget too that if you go on strike, management is going to define essential service levels and then start covering off certain activities that it has the skill set for within management. Bottom line, I think management picked a perfect time to put the brakes on as union leverage is low right now. The City could probably run for a couple of months without much of a problem. Bills will get paid, money will be received. Who knows, maybe even garbage will be collected. Water and sewer are essential services, so that will be covered. Annual taxes are in, so I can’t see any urgency, unless I’m not seeing the whole picture, which is entirely possible. The money the City could save though in a month of no wage or benefits costs for 500 workers is huge. 21.64days*27/hr*8hrs*500emp=$2,337,120. At that point we might get to a zero percent tax increase in 2014 or $2million more in road repair.

Think about it…

Informed: “Its documented that they did give themselves raises, and their “drop in the bucket” is equal or less than what the CUPE is asking.

The private sector took between 2 and insane % increases in contract talks this year.”

You’re confusing percentages with actual numbers. Don’t worry, I’ll try and get you on the right track.

How many councillors are there? What was their raise in actual money? (not %). How much is CUPE asking for? How many CUPE employees are there? How much more will it cost the City to meet their demands?

These are the kinds of questions that need to be asked. Don’t get caught up in percentages. That’s a fool’s game.

I like what you did there Sine but I believe 30% is too high for the marginal tax rate, probably in the low 20s

Councilor got an increase from $23000 per year to $30,000.00 per year. $7000.00 times 8 Councilor is $56000.00 per year.

Not much when you consider the time they spend on a lousy job.

What we need pure and simple is a freeze on wages and benefits for both Management and Staff at City Hall for a minimum of five years. Its just that simple. We cannot continue to pay increases every year for the same amount or less work.

There are other ways for people to cope with the cost of living, one of which is to stop spending so much money, quit buying fancy useless items, and go to less parties, and bars just to name a few.

Taxpayers are not the ones responsible for the rise in the cost of living, and they should not be required to pay employee’s because of something out of their control.

Wages and benefits for work, need to be based on value of work received for the money paid, not on some nebulous cost of living figure conjured up by some halfwit civil servant locked in a basement room in Ottawa.

Value of work?

I turn on my taps and the water flows, with water that is used as the baseline quality for all of BC if not Canada… Obviously anyone associated with running and maintaining our water is doing a bang up job.

I flush my toilet and the waste goes away, what does a septic system cost? Its expensive. The guys at the treatment plant dealing with the 100,000 people worth of waste in our city… I think they do not get paid enough to have to deal with all that.

CN Center – Well I don’t use this like I used to, I was an avid concert goer and went to a lot of Cougar games in my youth. Still I imagine that it runs fairly similarly and I can’t recall much of an issue with it. – I imagine they have a lot of staff, I also imagine most of those staff are on the low end 15-20 / hour.

Kin Center / Coliseum – Its been a while since I used them, I didn’t go often, and I can’t fairly comment.

Aquatic Center / Four Seasons – Well the Seasons is old, I know it is packed in the afternoon and weekend, and god help you if you make the mistake of going on a holiday or pro-d day. The aquatic center is newer, and seems to have a lot of renting going on from their clubs. I’ve been told they have some 60-90 lifeguards on staff, but only a handful work more than a few hours a week. All told they probably have 100 of the indoor CUPE staff working in aquatics alone. Maybe with 20-25 actual full time positions worth of hours. I do remember seeing an article that had the pool approval rating in the high 90’s. Cashiers seem nice, lifeguards are friendly, I haven’t heard of anything serious happening which would be their fault. And they are a WHOLE lot cheaper to go to than the pools down south!

Parks – Well we have NOTHING on the lower mainland (they have some amazing parks down there), what we do have works for me. I assume they also take care of the assorted tennis and other court areas around town as well.

Garbage – Every pick-up time, they get my house, they also pick up my neighbours on alls ides who often have overfull trash bins. The, not so, new trucks seem to get the job done fast and efficiently. The landfills don’t have huge waits and I wonder how much of that 6 dollar fee is taken by the city, and how much is for the contractors.

Snow Clearance – while largely contracted – My street having a bus route means I won the lottery here. No complaints from me. Yeah some of the off side street streets get pretty ugly, but the it makes sense for how they do them.

City Hall first floor – The ladies are professional and I always get through my part fast (granted I come prepared) sometimes a line but I’ve never had it be unreasonable.

What am I forgetting? I’m sure their are other departments but I think this gets the gist across.

I ask you, what parts of the service they provide are you unhappy with? Because I’ve lived in cities where the services are a whole lot worse.

Oh I should also mention, an article a while back I read (and sorry no source). (And to be fair I think it was a Yahoo article, so take that for what you will).

The average Canadian pays

46% of their income to tax
43% for cost of living (house, food, clothing, gas, etc)

JB you an employer.

We would not need this discussion if not for money wasted on an overbuilt cop shop, community energy plant, etc.

Alexvega just where do you think the labour code originated? Lions are not perfect but much better than the alternative.

You union bashers just what is your alternative?

Informed: “I turn on my taps and the water flows, with water that is used as the baseline quality for all of BC if not Canada…”

Chilliwack has the highest quality of water in Canada. It comes from a deep aquifer just like the water in Prince George, except Chilliwack does not contaminate it with hexafluorosilicic acid fluoride like Prince George.

Right, lets see here…

How many cavities have I had in my life? Zero, when I was younger like many children I wasn’t as good with oral care as I am now.

How many cavities do people on strictly well water have? More than zero.

Totally different conversation, one better spent a year + from now when they hold the vote on keeping it or getting rid of it… Personally I don’t have an issue with it in my water. If you do, use a filter.

Sadly only a few communities still do this.

Besides the fact that they DO use our water as the ideal baseline for sampling everyone else.

But wait let me guess, you also avoid various vaccines because they will give your children autism right?

Egad! I agree with Informed!

seamutt: “JB you an employer.”

Nope, just a working taxpayer.

You mean you agree with ill informed JB.

I remember a time when the pile of garbage bags on city halls lawn was huge! Maybe history will repeat itself?! Strike means no garbage pickup folks so what better place to throw your garbage!

Why doesn’t someone paste some highlights from the proposed contract here? There’s almost 600 copies out there…

NoWay: “You mean you agree with ill informed JB.”

Yeah, I really should stop paying attention to scientific studies and spend more time listening to celebrities like Jenny McCarthy.

Alexvega says “Oh and, no you don’t work as hard as everyone else. Far from it.” Really? well let me forgo the usual Opinion 250 correctness lol, YOUR A MORON! Yes, NO one at the City works hard….the Garbage fairys come and take it magically away and the mechanics sit around ALL day and fix nothing and the streets plow themselves and the grass cuts itself you friggin mental midget! City workers work just as hard as ANY other line of work and deserve to be treated with respect! But then we have twits like yourself who spout that same tired crap again and again and again about “We pay their salaries!”…..well you pay the RCMP salaries as well, have you ever complained about there wages? My guess is No but they go to school for 6 months and make 90,000$ a year…..have unlimited sick days, why arent you complaining?? Answer- Because your a typical City of PG citizen who whines about everything a City employee does. Now go run for Mayor.
Johnnybelt writes “The private sector has taken cutbacks for years while the public sector has not. We as taxpayers cannot continue to sustain a bloated and self-entitled public service.” Self entitled you say…..Yes the City employees applied for jobs, got them and now work…..how insanely SELF ENTITLED they must be to want to make a fair wage?! And get your facts straight as the public sector has NOT taken cutbacks for years, what Pulpmill has offered their employees cutbacks, Safeway, Mcdonalds?? Not happening so your wrong. Are U complining about the $$ spent on the Canada Games? Oh and WE AS TAXPAYERS……Do you think City workers are excempt from paying Tax?? They pay the same taxes you do!

Knowledge: “YOUR A MORON!”

Hey, Mr. Knowledge, it’s “You’re”.

“Oh and WE AS TAXPAYERS……Do you think City workers are excempt from paying Tax?? They pay the same taxes you do!”

But you are paid with tax dollars. What is it about that you don’t understand?

Know: “well you pay the RCMP salaries as well, have you ever complained about there wages? My guess is No but they go to school for 6 months and make 90,000$ a year…..have unlimited sick days, why arent you complaining?? “

Actually, people are questioning policing costs. There have been many discussions on this site alone about that subject.

Know: “how insanely SELF ENTITLED they must be to want to make a fair wage?! “

Public sector wages and benefits are consistently higher that their private sector counterparts for the same work. This is not news. Taxpayers have every right to question that.

A fair wage?

Tell these people about fair wages…..

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2013/09/09/canada-unpaid-internship-overtime-tuition-cost.html?cmp=rss

“Little legal recourse for students asked to work overtime during unpaid internships”

“Attention turned to the internship programs last week, as CBC’s GO Public reported on the sudden death of a 22-year-old Alberta practicum student, Andy Ferguson, who crashed while driving home after being made to work long hours in November 2011.”

“Alisha Denomme eagerly embarked on a three-week academic, unpaid internship at a strategic branding company in Hamilton, Ont., while studying graphic design at Georgian College in Barrie, Ont. But the experience quickly soured as Denomme struggled to pay tuition, finance her internship and work the long hours.”

“I was still getting the same amount of work as when I would come in for the whole week,” she says, explaining that she would be given a week’s worth of work to do, despite only being paid for two days.

“Still, Denomme was thrilled when the owners decided to hire her part-time after she completed her internship, compensating her slightly above minimum wage. That excitement quickly turned to dejection when she realized they expected her to put in overtime hours for free.”

I think it is time that those who are with a union that has reached far above the limit that others have not yet achieved help those others achieve an improvement in their workplace experience.

Talk about Bangladesh???? We have it right under our very noses and no one is doing anything bout it.

Engels, 1881 article about fair wage and fair work said that the workman gives as much, the employer gives as little, as the nature of the bargain will allow.

He opined that the relationship is a very peculiar sort of fairness.