Unbelievable. Not only does the society expect us to pay for a PAC, they expect us to pay them to run it?

“This is not a facility built for a certain segment of our society” – Bullsh*t

Something was missed from the timeline:

2013 (Q4) City Council declare project a priority

2013 (Q4) City Council instruct administration

2014 (Q4) New Mayor and council voted in, come to their senses, realise this is a stupid idea and quash the plans.

And sewer has been in the books for Hart Highlands since it was incorporated into the city– how about 1980? And residents were told within a 2 year time – frame; still waiting!!!

WORST Mayor in Prince Georges History!!!!

Unbelievable!! 42 million for a city this size? Saskatoon spent 11 million 6 years ago on their performing arts centre. When it opened it was debt free. What else do these morons have in store? How about spending 35 million on a new firehall. Where are we getting all this money from?

Vancouver, with a 2011 population of what, 2.3 million, saw their PAC shut down and sold off because it was not financially viable. And Prince George is going to successfully operate one? You are kidding yourselves, but not the taxpayer.

Make do with what you have: the Playhouse, Vanier Hall, the auditoriums that already exist.

If you want your prissy playground, hold bottle drives, raffles, bake sales, raise your own money, pay for the PAC yourselves, and come up with the money to operate it.
You think you can stick the taxpayer with this frill and then fade off to your retirement somewhere else and leave the bill behind? BS.

The population of Prince George, the entire population, deserves to have its say. A referendum is a MUST on this item.

Haldi Rd residents were also promised water and sewer when they amalgamated in 1975. What concerns me is that the proposal states that it would hold concerts, weddings , sport exhibits and lectures. Do we not already have facilities that offer this now and would that not put them all into competition with one another? Stolz could not pay his taxes because of financial difficulties but had no problem supporting the motion. Does he not realize that tax payers are tired of having their taxes raised for the extras. We need the essentials first. Roads, water, sewer. Council, please wake up.

11 years ago Kelowna spent 7 million on their arts centre and now they can hardly afford to keep it open! 42 million for here? Who do we think we are?

Can hardly wait to vote in some more clowns next fall! At least Ford is entertaining this is just plain stupid!

Mayor Green put the white out lid back on!!!

Perhaps this city council should be reviewing the tonight’s city council meeting tape and review what they said about concerns of the regular citizens – taxpayers – in this city.

Or was all what was said tonight for example all the “peoples” concerns with the “parking” fiasco just another show by these clowns?

So Mayor Green says this is the next big project she would like to see the city move on. But “She says although she brings up the issue with the senior levels of government, they are telling her, the priorities are aging infrastructure, fixing bridges, making sure there is clean water, that facilities like a performing arts centre are not on the expenditure lists.”

And a statement attributed recently to Mr Bill Gall said the city faces financial challenges and a need to control costs. Increased taxpayer expectations for services and the high cost of fixing and maintaining aging facilities and infrastructure have placed heavy demands on the city budget.

So which is it Mayor? If there’s no money for the basics, there sure as hell isn’t any money for the 10 course meal.

Stop spending money we don’t have!!!!!!

Get rid of this mayor befor we go broke

Maybe she can get China to pay for it?? She better go back their for a another vacation and look at their PAC she can get somemore stupid ideas….. GET REAL GREEN

It’s time to exit stage right Mayor Green!

if our MP’s want to know where the city is on this project then why don’t they ask? Put this on the ballot next year and let the people of Prince George have their say. Rodgers and Zurowsky when they were running for mayor both promised that people would have their say in a referendum so will the current mayor and council agree to the same?

Does the mayor believe in democracy or has her trip to China rubbed off on her and now she believes more in dictatorships?

If they are okay asking if people want fluoride in their water why not add another simple question that asks if people are in favor of putting millions into a performing arts centre?

We better get that hotel at the CN Centre, we will need the land/business tax money!

If a city like Vancouver cannot make a large PAC work then why do they think a PAC in PG will fair any better?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/performing-arts-centre-won-t-be-missed-theatre-critic-says-1.1364598

Some interesting quotes from the article.

“This theatre is probably the most incredible Broadway-suitable theatre, techno-spectacle theatre in all of North America,” Law told CBC News in 2001.”

Yet it closed down.

“Wasserman says closing The Centre illustrates the fact that Vancouver is a mid-sized city that needs more mid-sized theatre venues.

“(Vancouver) needs more spaces like the new York Theatre that’s opening as part of The Cultch down on the Eastside that seats 350 people. That place is going to be full every single night.”

And somehow they feel opening a 800 seat theatre would be a good idea.

oops forgot to add the URL

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/performing-arts-centre-won-t-be-missed-theatre-critic-says-1.1364598

Unbelievable to the ninth degree. BEAM ME UP SCOTTY!

Taxpayers need a say in this!!!

OK. That’s it. Can’t pay the workers to put band aids on the streets. But let’s buy the Tahj Mahal.
Next!

How do the citizen go about stopping this outrageous spending?

Is there a way to actually put this to a referendum, vote or ARP?

Do the people of this city get any voice? (And not with the crap that “we voted them in”?)

I cannot believe this will cost the taxpayers more than the police station did.

Going to RDFFG is looking better every day ……

Can taxpayers do to PG city council what Toronto’s city council is doing to Rob Ford?

Maybe it’s time to dig up some councilor dirt and advertise it all over social media.

Dont you dare!

Good idea bater. Face palm

Maybe you can friend them on Facebook and get them to send you nekkid selfies.

lost for words, maybe Enbridge or some LNG will cover this little play house… want to tax us for rain water to build a play house why not.

The anger can be understood.

But I wish that people would refrain from commenting on something they know nothing about.

Kelowna has an 850 seat community theatre which was built 50 years ago and is still operating with proper spaces plus a 100 seat black box..

The Rotary Centre for the Arts has a theatre just a few seats larger than our Playhouse in addition to a small commercial art gallery, barista bar, several visual art studios. It function is similar to our studio 2880 plus Playhouse attached.

The centre for the performing arts in Vancouver is a private venue built for Broadway plays, which means a huge stage. The lobby is cramped, built on a piece of property the size of about 8 or so 110ft by 30ft downtown lots. It was sold to a religious group recently.

Vancouver’s main large theatres are the Orpheum and the Queen Elizabeth. Just because someone calls a building a Performing Arts Centre rather than a Theatre does not mean that it has multiple performing spaces.

Wanna talk about trucks, lets do that since you might know a bit more about that topic.

BTW, the Vancouver theatre was built as a result of two US physicians providing the seed funds.

Just shows that just because one works in a surgical theatre does not mean that one understands the operations of a broadway theatre.

North York has one of those too. It failed miserably as well and is being supported to the tune of over a million bucks because the property cannot be sold for another use.

“if our MP’s want to know where the city is on this project then why don’t they ask?”

It is sort of a figure of speech.

What they need is action, not words.

First action they want is for the City to have selected a specific piece of property.

The next action is they want to know how much the project will cost = building plus fees.

Then they want to know what the “ask” is and how much of that will compare to the City’s monetary contribution and any other contributions from other governments as well as private money and possible other “partners” that bring associated uses to the facility – hotel, apartments, commercial spaces, etc.

They need positive decisions, not a bunch of BS.

So what are you saying gus? A PAC here would be financially viable for the $42 Million +interest spent?

gus: “Wanna talk about trucks, lets do that since you might know a bit more about that topic.”

Since you seem to be indicating Prince George is full of truck driving rednecks, who is going to support an expensive PAC to go to the ballet when it comes to town?

If the city provides the land suggested that is a contribution of about $5-10 million dollars from local taxpayers. The real question is where do they get the other $30-35 million?

If mayor and council are cooking up a secret plan to hold a fire sale of parkland they risk a revolt if they throw millions more of what is in essence our tax dollars at the PAC without asking our approval.

Even the mayor admits there is no money available from the province or federal government so why are they wasting time discussing this.

Referendum a must.I am prepared to strive for the citizens input to see if the electorate is prepared for their share of the capital costs let alone the ongoing annual operating subsidy.

Here’s a suggestion, why don’t people wait until they see a concrete proposal before making their mind up?

Wait for a Concrete proposal? We can’t afford to entertain this madness. Period. The time to rise up is now before this is ram rodded down our throats.

We can’t afford it. We’ve already blown $240 grand in planning.

From the article: “He (Kilcullen) also says the Society expects the City would pay the Society an annual fee to run the facility, an amount, which, by year 5, is expected to be about $300 thousand dollars.”

Insanity.

If I wanna pack up, sell my house and move from this overtaxed burg, at least I am confident that the real estate agent doesn’t have to open his/her yap about upcoming killer tax rates. Or do they?

Wake up and smell the coffee citizens of PG. You cannot afford this crap. Perhaps if times were better you’d be financially able to support construction of these types of venues but with a declining INDUSTRIAL tax base and a residential tax base stretched to the limit you’re inviting financial catastrophe.

Mayor Green….DON’T DO IT. Prince George is an old city with a crumbling infrastructure. Make solid investments in repairing and rebuilding what the town NEEDS rather then going after what a few people WANT!

This will bankrupt the city. At minimum the tax payers of PG should have a vote on it through a referendum.

I suspect the moving up of a timeline is to compromise the next council from putting the kibosh to this insanity. Spend enough money and get far enough into the borrowing plans that it will cost a future council too much to break any contracts already signed. It shows a complete disrespect for the citizens of PG.

If they had any respect for the citizens of PG they would bring this to a referendum before committing the city to anything.

All this is about is spending tax dollars to try and make downtown PG viable with a huge white elephant that we can not afford.

Ironically bankrupting a city through more debt will do far more harm for future downtown prospects, rather than having a viable economic plan for the city through low interest rate risk policies of keeping the debt down. PG is the only city in all of BC other than Vancouver to have over $100 million in debt… and it will assuredly grow with this council… when interest rates go up our property taxes will skyrocket to keep pace and many many more will be leaving this city so they can have a secure future of not paying legacy debts in a higher interest rate environment as they become pensioners.

Each pensioner that moves to PG is like a million dollar capital investment in the community… and we drive them away because they can not afford the interest rate risk of huge debt… so other communities like the ones on the island enjoy the growth because they keep their debt near zero.

We need a few years to have our debt under control before the city considers anything else that brings more debt. Especially wants like this.

I have to pay $32,211 as a base figure that could go up (and likely will) for the city to bring city sewer to my street that I don’t want and don’t need (and another $15,000 if I want it hooked up to my house… $47,000 boondoggle)… a basic city service that will be 100% paid for by the property owners on the street… but we are also expected to pay the cost for a frill (PAC) that is a want that one will likely never use. Absolutely ridiculous.

“Each pensioner that moves to PG is like a million dollar capital investment in the community”

Explain, please.

“From the article: “He (Kilcullen) also says the Society expects the City would pay the Society an annual fee to run the facility, an amount, which, by year 5, is expected to be about $300 thousand dollars.” – Insanity”

I agree entirely!!

Why Kilcullen said that is beyond me. What a magnet for criticism. I wonder if there is anyone on the Board that pointed that out to him before he made the faux pas?

It is simply the estimate of the expected shortfall of an annual functional operating budget of about $900,000 or so. The key phrase in there is by the fifth year. That is once they have built up an audience and understand the interests of the local audience so that they can adjust the production to earn maximum dollars. Expect the figure to be higher than that in the early years.

The problem is that whatever figure they use it is totally outdated by now. In fact, the Society shares the original report that was created in 2008 and does not have the rehash of that on the site.

I have to ask why not? Why are they hiding this?

Perhaps he was saying that they would guarantee they would not require more than $300,000 of local public funding (they will get some funds for operating from the feds and the province depending on the governments of the day) by the fifth year.

When I heard that I shuddered. They would be well advised to pass it by an audience for sensitivity before they open their mouths again in public.

http://pgperformingarts.ca

All they are trying to do is make improvements to down town and to get people to go down town, this is the best way to do it. Just look at the RCMP building that looks like a building of the future. Do if this is what they are trying to do then they are way ahead of them selves.

Gus a pensioner makes $50,000 a year in investment or pension income and lives to be 85 and they will spend a good part of a million dollars locally supporting local business.

So if a community gets 1000 pensioners moving to their community its like a billion dollar investment in the local economy.

The key to them coming, or staying, in large part becomes an issue of cost stability for a fixed income to have the ability to keep up with property tax risk.

Simple question for the folks out there. At what price tag would you be wiling to support a PAC for Prince George?

To make the question even more useful, let’s go with 2 figures:

1) Initial capital outlay directly attributable to PG and
2) Annual operating subsidies

“Gus a pensioner makes $50,000 a year in investment or pension income and lives to be 85 and they will spend a good part of a million dollars locally supporting local business.”

Ever heard of snowbirds?

Notwithstanding that, we are talking about taxes, and we are talking about amenities for pensioners.

So they cash in on a house in Burns Lake, and they buy what here ….. likely rent because they are moving to a more expensive town where the average 1,200sf house costs $250 to $300 thousand rather than $150 to $200 thousand.

They have money to burn, sort of, and they will spend it on pampering themselves or save it because they do not want to spend the last 5 years of their lives in some dump of an old age home.

Things such as theatres, cafes, strolling down a nice warm street for most of the year really impress pensioners who want to enjoy the things they could not when it was “work you ass off and save for retirement”.

Pensioners come in all shapes and sizes, all sorts of different health conditions, all sorts of interests. Some even give money to their children who are living in other communities.

Good luck with attracting pensioners to this community. The first struggle they would have is walking on the streets in winter as well as driving on he streets in winter.

To make the question even more useful, let’s go with 2 figures:

1) Initial capital outlay directly attributable to PG and
2) Annual operating subsidies

1) $15million
2) $500thousand for functional operations

There needs to be a third one for maintenance which is not typically included in functional operations if the City owns it and I doubt that it is included in the PAC Society’s presentation.

The figures used in the original, Webb report of 2008 was roughly $2/sf/year. At say 65,000sf that would be an additional $130,000 per year. I would think that bringing that into 2013 figures, we would be looking at another $150,000 plus/year.

Now, we all know how the City is about maintain our infrastructure. I would not trust them.

DBFM is another way to go to give equal payments over a 30 year period, after which the facility will be turned over to the City for $1.

D=design
B=build
F=finance
M=maintain.

That removes all risk, other than the functional operating risk which private enterprise will rarely take on other than for civil works.

Taking on that risk, however, costs a penny or two.

I noticed a lot of verbal acid tossed Mayor Green’s way… and rightfully so.

Keep in mind the vote was unanimous. That means Brian Skakun is for this facility as well. Keep that in mind the next time you want to exclaim “Skakun for Mayor”.

gus: “To make the question even more useful, let’s go with 2 figures:

1) Initial capital outlay directly attributable to PG and
2) Annual operating subsidies

1) $15million
2) $500thousand for functional operations”

1) Why do we only care what it costs PG? There is additional cost in the neighborhood of $27 Million which will be borne by the non-PG taxpayer, notwithstanding the ongoing maintenance and operating costs. What makes us think they can afford it any more than we can?

JB… Since your Prov and Fed taxes are helping to build the Evergreen Line in my ‘hood, I have no problem with my taxes helping to build a PAC.

Believe me, riding TransStink is entertainment.

;-)

Vanier Hall, The Playhouse and a regularly empty Civic Center. Failing infrastructure… I fail to see how this is not being considered

JB … just think of how many of local citizen taxes that are paid to the feds and province … income, sales tax, gasoline tax, etc. we pay and help fund in the province …. we are only 1.5% or so of that population and a fraction of the federal population …. go to funding in other locations …..

THAT IS WHY I DO NOT GIOVE A CHIT!!!!

Capice?????

Gus… As it has been said many times, there is only one taxpayer. Keeping a scorecard and having an entitlement mentality based on what other communities have has gotten the whole country into the unsustainable situation we are in.

Playing a shell game with taxpayer dollars (Federal, Provincial, Municipal) when everyone is going into debt is a fool’s game.

Thanks to Mayor and Councillors for making this a priority project!!

I agree with Buzz . . . the new RCMP building is a great addition. It’s never a good time to start legacy projects but PG has waited too long for this one.

Bring it on and make it something we can be proud of decades from now.

Finally.

You pay for it then, cause I refuse to be broke for decades from now.

Not buying it.

Thanks to Mayor and Councillors for making this a priority project!!

I agree with Buzz . . . the new RCMP building is a great addition. It’s never a good time to start legacy projects but PG has waited too long for this one.

Bring it on and make it something we can be proud of decades from now.

Finally.

Thanks to Mayor and Councillors for making this a priority project!!

I agree with Buzz . . . the new RCMP building is a great addition. It’s never a good time to start legacy projects but PG has waited too long for this one.

Bring it on and make it something we can be proud of decades from now.

Finally.

3rd times a charm….

“Why do we only care what it costs PG?”

Because those are the differential costs and therefore, the only ones that really matter in this situation.

It’s a lame duck argument to say “there is only one taxpayer”. The simple reality is that every taxpayer in the country pays income tax to the Federal and their respective Provincial Government. These levels of government use some of those those funds for various purposes, one of which is to invest in infrastructure and various other projects for communities across the country and throughout the Provinces. They will also do this whether you like it or not as they recognize that they have a role to play in developing communities and therefore the country.

If those levels of government did not choose not to pool tax revenues like this and undertake these types of projects, Canada would basically be comprised of 6 or 7 modern cities and the rest of the country would be scattered with what would effectively resemble outpost camps serviced by dirt trails.

If money is available from Provincial and Federal sources, PG SHOULD seek them. If they don’t, some other more proactive and forward thinking city will AND they will benefit from the investment and continue to grow.

So cut the garbage and stop making it sound like this is a $42 million dollar project that has to be funded by the people of PG. If we’re truly looking at PG’s contribution on an equal share basis, it would cost $14 million for PG plus whatever money the people in the city send to the Province and Feds for infrastructure funding purposes. This latter amount would equate to a pimple on an elephant’s butt in comparison to the total amounts received from other areas of Canada.

If you don’t want to invest the $14M, that’s one thing. Pulling the $42M figure out of the air is about as dumb as expressing outrage over the countless other projects being funded across the country that you haven’t even heard of.

Gus; “Wanna talk about trucks, lets do that since you might know a bit more about that topic.” You may want to refer to a previous post of yours on “trolls”.
Maybe some people here have a bit more understanding of the topic than you give them credit for.I’m not against the idea of a PAC but it has to be based in reality & common sense. PG does not have the infrastructure population & interest wise to support what is proposed. $42 million?? That is outrageous for a city the size of PG. JB said it correctly & better than I could. Let’s get our financial house in order before we go out & spend what we clearly do not have. I’d love a brand new truck but it’s not in the financial cards right now… ;)

Isn’t there money in the terasen deal? Bet all the cash will be tossed into this project, they used some for road rehab already but probably saving up to build this in 2015

NMG, even $14 million right now is a bitter pill to swallow. Not when I am about to be taxed on rain & snow fall. Not when politicians at all levels have ignored our infrastructure to the point where it is quickly becoming unsustainable. I agree that there is money out there for these projects but let’s show some restraint. Use the money wisely, I think that is the gist of what is mostly posted here.

Oh that’s a totally fair comment detoe43 and that may indeed be the reality given where the city is currently at.

I just wish people would look at the situation with a critical eye and least understand what it is they proclaim to be against. I honestly think there are some people in PG who think they are being asked to cut a cheque for $42M.

Come on Mayor and Council! Are you serious?!! My house taxes go up every year, Utility Bills that are rising much faster than the rate of inflation, a new storm water tax coming that they tell us we need just to maintain our failing infastructure, crumbling roads that we struggle with every year to find the money to repair, new service fees with less service, (snow removal service got reduced again this winter) We can’t afford this PAC, I demand that you manage my tax dollars better, focus on fixing our infrastructure first, stop telling me you have to raise my taxes and service fees just to maintain current services, only then do you have the right to bring this PAC idea forward.

NMG: “If those levels of government did not choose not to pool tax revenues like this and undertake these types of projects, Canada would basically be comprised of 6 or 7 modern cities and the rest of the country would be scattered with what would effectively resemble outpost camps serviced by dirt trails.”

You’ve missed my point, NMG. The problem is that we’re allocating more tax revenues than we’re taking in, causng a deficit. It’s a big shell game, and we’re all losing.

“If money is available from Provincial and Federal sources, PG SHOULD seek them. If they don’t, some other more proactive and forward thinking city will AND they will benefit from the investment and continue to grow.”

This is also a lame duck argument, IMO. “If we don’t do it, someone else will” is hardly a good reason to spend money we don’t have. And I’m talking “we” as in Canadians.

So NMG, the federal and provincial governments had money available for a dyke.

So PG SHOULD seek that money should it? Because its available?

If the project is not the right one for the city at this time, and certainly is an abomination in terms of total cost, it should not be proceeded with.

My question is this: why is it that taxpayers can see it but the mayor and council cannot?

A wish list is fine. Trying to buy the things on that list when you can’t afford to is nuts.

Detoe43 wrote: “I’m not against the idea of a PAC but it has to be based in reality & common sense.”

Everyone has a different idea of what common sense is. In order to have common sense one needs to have common understanding. I find that people have not been given a common understanding of this or most other projects in this community.

Right now, in my common sense view, we are heavily involved in putting on a good show for the Canada winter games. How did that ever happen?

We are also heavily involved with a $60million investment in a Terasen shell game. That is limiting our capacity for something like 20 or so years. We voted on it. It was accepted. I think it was a poor decision primarily because we were not fully informed as to what it would mean to our other operations priorities.

For instance, I thought we had competent people at city hall who set aside money for preventative maintenance. I was wrong! I suspect a lot of others were wrong.
————————————

“PG does not have the infrastructure population & interest wise to support what is proposed.”

Compared to other similar cities we have the infrastructure and the population. We may not have the interest of sufficient people. So be it. But the thing we are forgetting is that we are building a city that would be of interest to others to move here. The people that are older have the capacity to take off and become snowbirds for 4 to 6 months and can choose to live almost where they want to and move into a different mindset and lifestyle …. then come back here to live at the teat of the government medical system here that they have been paying taxes into during their working lives..

“$42 million??”

It is not that amount to this City. It is about $15 million I do not think there is a single person on the PAC Board who would support $42 million at our own expense. Even the complex in Quesnel was to have money from senior governments included. The province had already come up with $4million. Sadly enough, I predict that they will get the money they want from senior governments due to the impact of the MPB and major forestry jobs they will lose in the next two years.

“That is outrageous for a city the size of PG”

It is actually outrageous for a city the size of PG NOT to have such a facility. Remember, Kelowna’s Community Theatre was built 50 years ago when PG was larger than Kelowna.

Maybe Kelowna grew BECAUSE it has amenities such as that. Remember, it had a much smaller tax base and, even to this date, the average income is at least 10% less than PG’s. ;-)

Do we need a 60 million dollar PAC. NO, we don’t. Do we need a decent PAC, yes we do. Do we need to put it down town, yes we do.

Theatre Northwest has already said that they will not be moving to the PAC. What are they going to do to the current PG Theatre at the bypass.

I am curious to see what this business plan is going to look like. We all know there is going to be cost over runs. In order to pay off a 60,000,000 dollar facility, Its going to be at least 5 million dollars a year to service this debt. plus running the facility. if the residential properties pay for half of this, based on 20,000 homes, that is $250 a year. I think I pay $110 a year for a season pass at Theatre Northwest.

Its going to be a pretty tough sell for PAC on the business plan. Remember, the residence is looking to user pay accountability. we can subsidize a wee bit, but not that much. I wouldn’t be posting my flag on it on a mayor race.

“This is also a lame duck argument, IMO. “If we don’t do it, someone else will” is hardly a good reason to spend money we don’t have. And I’m talking “we” as in Canadians.”

Let us face it, compared to Alberta, and now Saskatchewan as well, BC is a have not province, although we are no longer getting equalization payments.

As a have not province, we need to either sell our energy resources, since there will be a fall down in forestry resources, or start actin like the Maritime provinces and play poor cousins of the union and get every red cent we can.

Survival of the fittest.

We have not put our brains to work …. well, sort of. We are importing brain power at the moment from Asia. In the past we have been importing skill power from Europe as well as migrants from eastern Canada.

I am one of them. I worked for industry but was appalled at the education system when I got here and was big time concerned that we had to go looking for technicians and professionals to the east and the west of this province and country.

He spoke wrote:

“I am curious to see what this business plan is going to look like. We all know there is going to be cost over runs. In order to pay off a 60,000,000 dollar facility, Its going to be at least 5 million”

Go to pgperformingarts.ca and go to the download for the business plan prepared in 2008. It is quite thorough. It has been public ever since 2008 …. I count 5 years.

WE DO NOT HAVE TO PAY OFF A $60 MILLION FACILITY. WE LIQUIDATE ASSETS THAT WILL BE REDUNDANT, SUCH AS THE PLAYHOUSE.

We may have a residual of a few million such as $5 million. THAT is what needs to be paid off. THIS ISA NOT THE RCMP BUILDING WHERE WE HAD TO BORROW THE WHOLE LOT!!

So, somebody please help. What does it take to get that through people’s skulls that seem to be rather thick, as is so often the case on this site.

As Gordon Wilson wants said: “no wonder nothing ever gets done around here”

Isn’t theatre northwest and the PG Playhouse the PAC. Look we have two!

I think they should seriously sit down and have a look at the books of the current “performing arts” venues we already have such as PGSO and Theather North West. For example these two organizations are struggling as is and constantly need grants/private placements. As well if a PAC were to come in it would put even more pressure on the existing venues we have by potentially taking away their audiance.

PAC.. In my opinion.. Not to be financed and administrerd through the city.. If the feds/province wants to kick in the cash or a private company comes in then let them take that risk..

“Theatre Northwest has already said that they will not be moving to the PAC.”

And has anyone told the citizens of this community why that is not the case?

Could it be because they are getting free rent right now?

Could it be that giving such an organization free rent in a $250+/s.f. space would be costing the City more than the $114,000 or so subsidy that they have been getting for the last 5 years or so?

Organizations such as the PGSO, the dance companies in town, and others would have to pay to use the facility, although at subsidized rate as will likely be insisted on by the City.

So, that $300,000 operating per year subsidy to the PAC could actually be seen in another way – it goes to subsidize community organizations using the facility. ALL community based PAC do that. It is part of their mandate.

BUT, it is too political to come out with that.

As the Mayor says, it is time to have a conversation. BUT it needs to be an open and honest conversation ….. all the political correctness has to disappear!!

http://www.pgperformingarts.ca

Gus, I never wrote that PG would be on the hook for $42 million. I implied that $42 million was an outrageous amount & I stand by that. We both know that Kelowna did not grow by leaps & bounds because of it’s amenities.

Maybe City of PG needs to talk to
Gail Vaz-Oxlade.
She will tell them prob., get first dept free, do the important things for the City.
Spend the money wisely, special for it is tax payers money.

Lastly – we only can spend what we have. Sometimes we might want things, but do not have the money. so that means, we have to save money, that we can buy these things.

I think, a referendum would be best.

And I would not count on seniors moving to the city. I know many, they left after becoming pensioneers, the polution in the city is not what seniors need. What is with the cancer rate in PG?

On just a sightly different slant to this issue… I find it ironic how the performing arts exist on the backs of the artists themselves. We have all heard the term “starving artists”, where actors and actresses in waiting work at restaurants and other such low paying places, paying their dues and waiting for their big break.

Painters living most all of their life in poverty and squalor, only to have their “work and crafts” recognized and sold for millions after their deaths.

But what of the admirers and supporters of the arts, performing or otherwise? Who buys the million dollar paintings as “investments”? I would say usually it is the cream of society’s crop, the 1% ers.

There is only one industry that has the money and drive to support the culturally refined needs of the most powerful and influential 1% in our society… to support and donate a huge sum of money to this proposed PAC… oh Enbridge… where are you?

I know… it’s a stretch, but IMO it’s a change of perspective from the rest of the PAC comments on here ;-)

“The problem is that we’re allocating more tax revenues than we’re taking in, causng a deficit. It’s a big shell game, and we’re all losing”

Finance Minister Jim Flaherty recently announced that the Feds are expecting a 3.7B surplus in 2015, just in time for tax cuts. The Province of BC is forecasting a surplus of $460 million for the 2015/2015 fiscal period.

So either you are wrong, or you are saying that you know more about the economic outlook that the Ministry of Finance for the Province of BC and the Government of Canada. Which is it?

Meh, back to the most important subject and topic in life; money!

NMG; Finance Minister; Jim Flaherty “says” they are expecting 3.7B surplus in 2015. The problem is there is no committee and no one, including the Parliamentary Budget Officer, who can verify his statement! In a dictatorship regime, don’t believe everything being said as fact, unless it can be verified by a legitimate second or even third party.

Well now you’ve done it! Now it’s a case of:

1) Either the Conservatives are being accurate with the projections and they could easily afford to help with this project OR

2) The Conservatives are being deceitful with their projections, simply to help bolster their position heading into the next election.

Quite the quagmire for the PG right wing crowd to sort though, LOL ;)

The torch is passed on to PG now, so we will use staff time instead of the society’s time for further work on the project. The PAC society has spent 240,000 so far on a business plan, some work has been done on site criteria, and a building design has been prepared.

We the taxpayer will go after other grants through the staff at city hall of 75% or 32 million, the best deal likely is a split even 3 ways or 10.6 million each. P3 funding was turned down on our portion. The tax portion of this assuming prime municipal rate or 3.85% amortized over 20 years or 772,186 annually divided by 29,261 homes or 26.40 each per year

The society will work on the other 10.6 through sponsorship and donations.

Starting 2016 we will be funding the project an additional 300,000 per year which divided by 29,261 homes is just over 10 dollars a year in extra taxes per (simplified because business is not added in – but business getting a tax reduction in 2013 tends to imply residences will cover the brunt of additional spending)

So the quick and dirty total is: for the next 20 years once the money is borrowed (until 2035 or so) 36.40 per year on to your taxes and then an additional 10.00 per year plus inflation of course

“In a dictatorship regime, don’t believe everything being said as fact, unless it can be verified by a legitimate second or even third party”

That is being far too generous.

I believe it should say:

– In a dictatorship regime, don’t believe ANYTHING said as fact.

Also, it should say

– In any government, don’t believe anything being predicted as fact, until it can be verified by the predictions having been attained.

Thank you for that slinky!!!!

It is a good approximation of the costs based on the information out there at the moment. Much better than the knee jerk reactions of virtually everyone else.

Since people understand different things when using words such as “building design” it is important to note the design is an “order of magnitude” for use in determining site suitability as well as providing a “visual” for promotional purposes.

Finally, it is important to understand that one must be development ready when the opportunity arises. The City was not ready when they applied for the P3. They put in a poor submission which did not meet the criteria for them to even get an at the next stage. At the time cultural facilities were allowed.

The City is so far away from development ready that it is an understatement. I guesstimate it will take then at least a year to be development ready again. There are new pairs of eyes there now and the learning curve of the new people will be tremendous. THAT is what costs the money. The could have saved at least $50,000 to $75,000 if they had not gone through a second round for very little additional information.

What is the City’s debt repayment plan? I haven’t heard much about that.

There’s a very easy way to put the matter to rest. Add it as a referendum question in the next Municipal election.

One cannot put something to a referendum unless the electorate is fairly well educated about the intended action/project and what it will mean to them as taxpayers on the “negative” side and what it will mean to them on the “positive” side.

I do not trust this city at this time to have the competency to do that.

The indicators of that are plainly visible to anyone on either side of the debate.

So, another way has to be found to move towards a city that is a more livable city in the 21st century.

Last night one of the councilors mentioned that he is prepared to go as far as it takes in order to set things straight with the citizens. That was in the context of sites, finances, etc.

There was never any need to keep sites behind closed doors.

Kamloops is going through the same thing right now. The Mayor had an election platform which included a PAC within 5 years – in the ground. They have no fixed site yet. As best as I can tell they are debating in the city more about what side of the river it should go on. The people are part of that debate. They will likely be part of the debate of what size and configuration they want to build.

It might not be perfect process … but it is far more open than it has been here. AND they have created a committee of Council to maintain order to the process.

BTW, one of the first things that was built in the early days of PG was a theatre.

Church …. school …. theatre ….. bar ….. house of ill repute ……

The basic necessities. ;-)

Toronto got a PAC for free. It is called city hall staring Rob Ford and the audience is world wide. Top that mayor Green.

Toronto got a PAC for free. It is called city hall staring Rob Ford and the audience is world wide. Top that mayor Green.

Its kind of like the city council is on a buying spree the last few years. They should all put a quarter in a jar everytime they screw up, In a few more years, they will be able to purchase the PAC. I dont think we have one project that isnt a red herring.
No wait, heated floors for the criminals, ok .

gus: “One cannot put something to a referendum unless the electorate is fairly well educated about the intended action/project and what it will mean to them as taxpayers on the “negative” side and what it will mean to them on the “positive” side.”

In terms of benefits, the arguments used for the PAC are pretty much the same ones used to get the Art Gallery built.

A PAC will benefit a few people, no question. But are truck driving PG residents willing to put up an average of $36 per household per year for 20 years plus $10 per year in perpetuity to make it happen? That’s the question.