Ten million is a lot of money. I don’t think they can raise 5% of that. The city has a lot of needy causes competing for a limited amount of charity. Its not going to happen, and furthermore I don’t see the federal or provincial governments putting up $10 million a piece at this time either when they know they have huge infrastructure expenses for this city in the years ahead.

I think the priority for the city in getting senior levels of funding should be an Ospika overpass to Wallmart (100% fed as it crosses highway 16), and a south Fraser crossing and Danson Industrial site rail overpass to complete the south-east part of a ring road dangerous goods route, Peden Hill bipass (50% fed and 50% prov). I would also like to see some upgrades to the Hart with lighting up to Chief Lake Road, some road shoulders, and a permanent sidewalk/bike lane (100% provincial).

Maybe after the infrastructure is taken care of, and the airport logistics gamble pays off resulting in growth of the city could a PAC be considered at that time. Until then this is all about home owners being forced into paying for yet something else that a select few need at great expense.

I have a much cheaper “want list”.
An all weather playing surface for Masich place stadium. (field turf).

Fully agree with eagleone. A PAC will only service a fraction of the PG population, so why should the full population be taxed to build one. And at $40million, I believe those who want one, should raise the funds themselves. We already have facilities that service the arts in this city, the playhouse, CN centre, Vanier Hall, and when the weather is nice there’s the stage at the Park. Leave the general tax payer alone. We’ve already been hit hard over the past year of he majesty Queen Green.

Fully agree with Ben! During the five years since 2008 the Society could have made dedicated efforts to raise money from sponsors commensurate with its strong insistence that there must be a new PAC.

The remark let’s “get on with the show” should have been the slogan used by the Society!

Putting the cart in front of the horse is not the way to happy travels!

“Raise the first 10 million dollars and then come to the city seeking a municipal contribution of 10 million.”

I agree with the first half of this sentence but I disagree with the second half. Let the people that want a PAC pay for the PAC; keep the taxpayer out of the equation.

You can get quite a building for 10 million dollars.

I guess by this logic the folks who want an all weather field better start saving, they need to come up with 25%. Perhaps we should back date this a bit and swimmers and arena users should start paying the tax payers back for the 25% they didn’t raise. Or maybe Eagleone should start saving nickels for his overpass. These things are about a public good,quality of life, and civic pride. There will always be those that think its a waste. I’m sure if you look back there were people who thought we should keep our roads gravel and pavement was a waste. We need to look forward at what our community should look like. If you stay stagnent it will die. Is a PAC important? Tough call, but if done right it will add to the fabric of Prince George.
– when was the last time you heard someone say “I want to move to x community because it has nice roads” but you may have heard “that place has great facilities,it would be a nice place to live”

They need to “think outside the box”. Build a PAC that earns a profit, instead of a block of blank walls, three sides of small stores or resturants; offices above the PAC and then apartments or hotel above the offices. We would get a nice highraise and all the rents would cover the upkeep of the PAC. Could it work? Who knows but until you look at it in a different light you will never know.

Did the arena or swimming pool cost $40 million? When has PG spent $40 million at one shot on ANY part of our infrastructure in town? Apples to oranges. Doesn’t fly.

The arena was built 20 years ago. Fur season was built 40+ years ago. It has had an addition on to it.

When the PAC used to be on the major projects list, before it was taken off about 10 years ago, the cost was identified as $11million.

Talk about apples and oranges!!!!!!!

Never forget time! Time is money!! in this case as time moves on, the cost of things escalate …… other than during the depression of 80 or so years ago.

So, smarten up!!

Huh. We spent $38.9 Million (borrowed money) on the Police Station.

I am convinced that the City will get the bulk of the money that they need for the PAC from the sale of land along Highway 16 West, Tennis Court, the Playhouse Theatre, and perhaps Studio 2880 on Fifteenth.

This money could of course be used for the Storm Water Utility, Snow Removal, Roads, etc; but heh’ we can get money for the basics by raising taxes.

In addition we will be stuck with a tax increase for the operation and maintenance of this building to the tune of $450,000.00 per year.

In 1995 CN Centre was built for $18.5 million. With inflation that’s about $33.6 million today.

In 1998 the Aquatic Centre was built for $8.65 million. With inflation that’s about $15.7 million.

As much as I would love PG to have a more functional performing arts centre than what is presently available, $40 million does seem a bit grandiose.

Was nobody able to work with a corporation for funding? Maybe Telus or something of that sort? The Multi-Plex is now CN Centre because of a 10 year, $1.3 million naming deal. That would go a long way with helping run the facility if ever built.

If a person wants to take Wikipedia as gospel CN Centre would cost $29.7 million in 2013.

Before ANYONE will come up with money for a CITY OWNED building, whether it is private money or public money, the CITY has to have a SPECIFIC SITE and a COMMITMENT of money they will provide.

THAT is what is called city support. The City knows that, the PAC Society knows that, Partnerships BC knows that, Partnership Canada knows that. The only people who do not know that are the general citizens of this city because this city is not forthcoming with some of the key information. When someone in the news media asks them the question of why they do not get the notion of “open government” maybe we can begin to learn to understand the wisdom or the stupidity of this city administration and Council.

Ben, what you are asking for is an impossibility without a commitment by the City.

We have just had a case in Quesnel where there was a commitment by the city, by the people by way of plans, site, and city participation dollars. The city set up a method to accept donations and for 5 years donations came in from the province ($4million) West Fraser ($1million), and smaller amounts from individuals and businesses. Quesnel has a population of just under 10,000 people. The region around it has another 10,000 or so. They went into it with that part of the Regional District.

In my view, they did virtually everything right. BUT, they had to work within a timeframe of 5 years because of the limit set by the province on a loan bylaw.

Ben, you are not only setting up an impossible scenario, but you are setting up a scenario unique to a PAC, a scenario that is not in place for ANY other facility spending in this or any other City in Canada.

Why????

Although plans can change and money reallocated perhaps city hall is starting to read the writing on the wall and realize we will not get a PAC any time soon. The budget over the next few years include things like a new roof on 2880, new seating carpet and video for the playhouse.

Speaking of budgets one area that seems immune to any scrutiny is the computer department. In the 2014 capital plans so far out of a $22 million total almost $1.8 million is directed to new computers and computer systems. Does any other city or big company spend almost 8% of their capital project funds on computers? And this has been going on for a number of years….new financial system….pavement tracking and reporting…now CMMS…will know exactly what we need to do if we didn’t spend all the money on computers.

Posted by: gus on November 25 2013 8:31 AM
The arena was built 20 years ago. Fur season was built 40+ years ago. It has had an addition on to it.

When the PAC used to be on the major projects list, before it was taken off about 10 years ago, the cost was identified as $11million.

Talk about apples and oranges!!!!!!!

Never forget time! Time is money!! in this case as time moves on, the cost of things escalate …… other than during the depression of 80 or so years ago.

So, smarten up!!

————–

So, how much money have you raised in those 10 years?

Ten year naming deal is just over $100,000 a year. Spare change. It paid for the reader board that they never had from the start.

Remember we used have a mickey mouse sign on the corner of 18th and Ospika? we do things half assed in this city ….. and then the RCMP get a palace of a building…..

Why??????

Axman, I put in 5 years of “professional quality” TIME.

Based on rock bottom charge out rate for such time of $75/hour I dedicated approximately 80 hours per year which amounts to $30,000 which is not included in the money paid to consultants.

Time we actually recognized the efforts that volunteers put in to what they believe in.

How many years have you put in?

“The budget over the next few years include things like a new roof on 2880”

Time to tear that building down, sell the property, and move studio 2880 to one of the empty city owned buildings with the money for the property sale and the new roof and other maintenance items such as probably high heating costs.

How much can costs increase in 5 years?
Here is a copy of the article from 0-250.

Going from approx. 18 million to over 43 million is a drastic jump in 5 years.

Sunday, January 27, 2008 03:48 AM

Prince George, B.C. – Leadership has been set for the new board of the Prince George Regional Performing Arts Centre Society.

………….. “The society’s goal is to secure a performing arts centre for the city — estimated to cost in the $18-million dollar range.”

Reading the PAC budget plan from Oct 2008

http://icsp.princegeorge.ca/ICSP%20Documents/Physical%20%20Business%20Plan%20for%20New%20Performing%20Arts%20Facilities.pdf

We as taxpayers have not been told the full story……….Take a look at projected costs etc.

Over $51 mill was the original estimate in 2008 with a possibility of up to $1,794,095 in operating costs?

And How many jobs will this create? 12?

Studio 2880 is also the “Arts” is it not? They also sell tickets for events? Why not combine the usage?

There is something like $400k on the books in a year or two to demolish the old Norgate building and the service station. Fire department practice would be cheaper and faster:)

============================================ “and then the RCMP get a palace of a building…..

Why??????”

Part of the Holy Trinity of buildings that will be part of the resurrection of the CBD….roll away the stone;P

Gus: “Ben, you are not only setting up an impossible scenario, but you are setting up a scenario unique to a PAC, a scenario that is not in place for ANY other facility spending in this or any other City in Canada.

Why????”

The answer is the following: When the other facilities were built our infrastructure was relatively new and not nearing the end of its lifetime AS IT IS NOW!

Secondly, homeowners were not under assault as they are now with huge increases in taxes and user fees, such as for garbage, water and sewers plus as of late another increase in the snow removal levy and the very creative water drainage surcharge!

You know as well as many other people that times and circumstances change and here in PG the infrastructure chickens and the tax increase turkeys have come home to roost!

Our council seems to know it as well! That’s why they did identify it as the next MAJOR project, finances permitting!

No commitment unless the other money is guaranteed to be in place!

Posted by: gus on November 25 2013 9:09 AM
Axman, I put in 5 years of “professional quality” TIME.

Based on rock bottom charge out rate for such time of $75/hour I dedicated approximately 80 hours per year which amounts to $30,000 which is not included in the money paid to consultants.

Time we actually recognized the efforts that volunteers put in to what they believe in.

How many years have you put in?

—————

So you haven’t raised any money. Not a very efficient use of the 10 years you’ve had to raise funds.

Devoting 80 hours a year of your time is commendable; maybe when you’ve raised the 10 million and they’ve built your PAC they’ll give you a free season’s pass. Would that be enough recognition for you? How about a little plaque on one of the seats?

I haven’t devoted any of my time towards a PAC. I can’t afford a PAC. When I do volunteer my time I don’t put a price tag on that time; that seems rather self-serving and arrogant to me. I don’t volunteer for the accolades.

“Ten year naming deal is just over $100,000 a year. Spare change.”

The projected operating cost of a PAC is $300K/yr. You think possibly saving 33% annually is chump change?

Graymare, I agree with you. In order to do that the City has to be part of the effort. They have created a Society with no authority and funded with about 30% more money than they needed to. They should have taken the first report, said thank you very much, and moved on to the stage that only the City can lead.

There is a private set of theatres in Ottawa that was built with a 10 storey or so condo project above it. The renters do not subsidize it. That would be totally unfair. Why would a group of renters subsidize a private or public facility that is used city wide?
BUT, there are savings in property acquisition, services, etc. Plus it is anti-sprawl.
The original O’keefe Centre in Toronto ran into final problems with operating the facility. They sold the air rights for something like $50million for a high rise apartment complex. That was done some 40 to 50 years after its original construction and gave the theatre enough money for renovations.

If this city was committed and ready to go, they could have tried such a deal with the group building the new hotel …. In that very location that the city owned property.

BUT, as my wife so often tells me, we are not Ottawa, we are not Toronto, and we are not Vancouver. We are a small gritty mill town in the hinterlands of BC.

Therein lies the rub.

Pylot …. naming rights is one of the last things to negotiate unless the organization wants to put more money into the building.

Want to get naming right before hand?

$3million to name the main theatre, $1.5 million to name the small one, $500 thousand to name a rehearsal hall.

After that, naming the full PAC? $1 million a year ……

Understand why I said it is small change?

We as taxpayers have not been told the full story……….Take a look at projected costs etc.

Over $51 mill was the original estimate in 2008 with a possibility of up to $1,794,095 in operating costs?

And How many jobs will this create? 12?

Why did the PAC use the figures from 2008 in this months presentation to the city?

http://icsp.princegeorge.ca/ICSP%20Documents/Physical%20%20Business%20Plan%20for%20New%20Performing%20Arts%20Facilities.pdf

If there are 600 volunteers/people wanting the PAC – they could have brought the figures up to snuff.

What a way to treat the taxpayer!

“BUT, as my wife so often tells me, we are not Ottawa, we are not Toronto, and we are not Vancouver. We are a small gritty mill town in the hinterlands of BC. “

So let’s stop competing with those cities for the biggest and best PAC. Let’s build one for the 10 million dollars you guys claim you can raise. I’ll support you through ticket sales.

Ask the city for a break in taxes for the first 10 years or so until you get on your feet.

We’re tapped out. The infrastructure is failing yet the city’s priorities seem to lie elsewhere: the new over-priced cop shop, the new Kin 1 arena, the new city work building, etc., etc., etc.

“Ben, you are not only setting up an impossible scenario, but you are setting up a scenario unique to a PAC, a scenario that is not in place for ANY other facility spending in this or any other City in Canada

Why????”

====================================

That is indeed the question I’d like to have answered. Where were the people demanding that the new baseball diamond be paid for by private donors? What about the Kin 1 upgrades? What about the Aquatic Centre? Boat launch at River Road? Etc? Etc? Etc?

What is it about an arts facility (I will generalize here because these same arguments came up with the Art Gallery) that causes some people to see red and do a complete 180 in regards to how they would normally react to proposed capital projects?

I’ll put forth a theory based on over thirty years of living in PG. I think much of the city is small minded. I also think much of the city feels threatened by things like paintings, music, opera or any entertainment option that doesn’t involve body checking, loud cars or chasing moose. People will deny this and they will say it’s about money and aging infrastructure, but when was the last time anyone took a stand and said “fix our sewer facilities before you do project A, B or C”? You will NEVER hear that argument, unless of course it’s raised when a proposal comes forth for a PAC or something similar.

Let’s cut the BS and call it for what it is. A large number of people in PG either don’t like the arts or they feel threatened by what they think it represents. I will certainly say that there is a small percentage of people in PG who are more open to new ideas and diversity of opinions, but for much of the population, PG is still a small, gritty mill town and they don’t want to change that. They are stuck in 1971.

$35 bucks per year per household for a number of years in order to build a facility like this to improve the city and this is not acceptable to the masses? The more I read comments like what has been posted on this story, the more I’m glad I got the heck out of there and took my tax dollars with me. I’m happy to have those go to to a place that actually understands what building a community is all about.

PG is full of people who are so narrow minded that they won’t even enter into a dialogue about options for growing or evolving the city. That, IMHO, is not a good indicator of a city with a future.

NMG, that is a spot on analysis. I first started to notice this when I entered university here as an 18 year old. although my family was proud of me, there was always an emphasis on higher education in my house so this was expected. but I was amazed by the reaction of many other locals when it came up that I was a university student. a lot of eyerolling, comments about the uselessness of a university degree. i think a lot of the people threatened by the PAC are probably the same people threatened by the university. and I won’t say I’m totally pro-PAC, because I’m not, at least not in its current form.

So if there are 600 volunteers who put in 80 hours a year ‘professional time’ on average – that is 18 million dollars of ‘professional time’ in the last 5 years spent on this project…

And for that kind of dollars plus an extra 240k spent by the city we have part of a business plan and a building design has been prepared, plus some work done on site criteria….?

You mention the Kelowna PAC or KVPAC, they get an annual tax exemption of 75,000+, they receive financial funding from the city in the range of 300,000+ per year. The building eventually cost 6.93 million to build (renovation of the Growers Supply building in finished in 2002). The KVPACS approached the city in 2005 to pay for their portion or 1.081 million in loans they had to which they could not pay. In two years they paid off 19,000 of the 1.1 million dollars they had to borrow as part of the city building the PAC. This became an ‘albatross’ on their backs to competing for funding from government and private granting agencies due to funding guidelines. The city was in the process of taking over the loan from HSBC in May of 2005, which I assume they completed.

My question is when will the PGPAC come to the city with the same request, not for a million dollar relief but rather 10.6 million dollars in relief if this is built?

Sorry, did some editing and didn’t proofread, I am not a volunteer just a lowly taxpayer

“PG is full of people who are so narrow minded that they won’t even enter into a dialogue about options for growing or evolving the city. That, IMHO, is not a good indicator of a city with a future.”

Spending 40 million on a PAC to satisfy the wants of very small number of people will in no way, shape or form grow this city. Start small, raise the 10 million that they say they can and build a suitably sized venue for the small number of people who will actually use the thing.

I’m not sure how a PAC will help this city grow and evolve. Seriously, is the PAC going to deal with the poor air quality in this town? Will the PAC so something to help all the homeless people hanging around the downtown? Will the PAC reduce crime in the city? The only thing a PAC will do is give a handful of people who seem to think they’re better than the rest of us an opportunity to put on a black tie every now and then.

i dont support the PAC because as a taxpayer i have had enough and don’t want even $35 dollars of mine to finanace yet another white elephant of council. put it to a referendum and let the majority decide. timing is everything, and this time the PAC is not a priority in light of embarassing and failing infrastructure, poor fiscal management, and ever increasing fees and taxes…

I say build it once iyou have all it paid for by private donations. I don’t want any tax dollars wasted on this thing. I don’t want my federal, provincial or local tax dollars wasted on this stupid thing.

Gus, why haven’t the PAC people given up? Why?

The CITY as you call it are the tax payers that live within its boundaries. Raise the money maybe the CITY will donate some land. The CITY tax payers have had it with extravagant expenditures. 40 million for a 800 seat Playhouse, give us a break!

NoWay – This building will not cost us
$40 million.

According to the PAC’s own business plan it could and probably will be closer to the $ 51 million in their plan!

Also according to their business plan it will cost a lot more the $ 300,000 to run….The business plan even shows up to $1,794,095 in operating costs for a year!

Thanks for the idea Iam4sam. I am thinking way to small. I should form a society, get about $240,000 from the city, spend it, and then come back and tell the city I’m dumping this in your lap and oh, I will expect $300,000 a year to run the facility. Sound stupid ? Yes it does.

Also Iam4sam, I just put a $100 into the fund so I guess I’m already $100 further ahead than the PAC society.

Said an earlier comment: “I think much of the city is small minded. I also think much of the city feels threatened by things like paintings, music, opera or any entertainment option that doesn’t involve body checking, loud cars or chasing moose.”

If any of that was indeed true, any supporter of a new PAC should be too proud to ask any of these “small minded” citizens to unwillingly be forced to pay for the facility, as there will be close to zero enthusiasm for attending it once its standing there!

Over and out!

According to the PAC’s business plan –

“Market Size

According to the 2006 Canadian Census, the population of Prince George, Fraser-Fort George and the Regional Market declined from 2001 – 2005, by 2.1%, 3% and 0.4% respectively, while the population of British Columbia increased by 5.3%”

So tell us, with a decline in the area how much are the taxpayers going to pay?

With numbers like these, does not help the timing or cause…………

Slinky wrote:

“You mention the Kelowna PAC or KVPAC, they get an annual tax exemption of 75,000+, they receive financial funding from the city in the range of 300,000+ per year. The building eventually cost 6.93 million to build (renovation of the Growers Supply building in finished in 2002).”

You have the wrong building!!!!! That is the KVPAC stands for Kelowna Visual and Performing Arts Centre, which is a small building which has a 300 seat theatre without fly towers combined with a visual arts studio facility of better quality but similar purpose to our studio 2880.

I have posted this on several occasions here but people refuse to read or learn or whatever. To many on here are like bulls in a ring going for the red cape. They have not interest in learning.

Kelowna has a city theatre about the size of Vanier hall with a fly tower, not attached to a school built about 50 years ago.

I have been to Kelowna on several occasions when the art gallery next to the Rotary Centre for the Arts (KVPAC) is busy and the coffee shop at the Rotary Centre is not even open for business on a Saturday morning.

The neat thing about the Kelowna Art Gallery is that the multipurpose room is at street level with lots of windows to allow pedestrians to look in and see the classes or parent/children art events to be seen and advertised. Our Art Gallery looks like a dead space even when busy because those same activities occur on the second floor. The functional space design leaves a lot to be desired.

One thing people should keep in mind. While a good building design will do a lot to help a building to be active, the key to the success of a building is the Operations Manager. If one has a poor Manager, one will never have success with an arts facility where correct programming is everything.

Actually, one only has to look at the CN Centre when it first opened up. For years that thing was operating as a dud until we Glen Mikkelsen came along. He turned that place around.

Operations Manager…I think that Garth Drabinsky is out on day parole. Prince George would fit like a glove as we have the Hilton on the hill where he could spend his evenings and weekends;)

“If any of that was indeed true, any supporter of a new PAC should be too proud to ask any of these “small minded” citizens to unwillingly be forced to pay for the facility, as there will be close to zero enthusiasm for attending it once its standing there”

====================================

You mean like how there are people in PG who fund baseball diamonds, hockey rinks and soccer fields and yet will never set foot on them?

Why do we never hear these people complaining so virulently about their tax dollars being used on facilities they will not utilize? Perhaps they tend to look at things with a different lens?

For those who don’t know: Kelowna/West Kelowna has a population of more than twice that of Prince George! Comparing the ability of these two cities to pay is like comparing apples and oranges when it comes to funding of a PAC!

Prince George, one has to be a believer of the notion that this City’s traditional industrial base is shrinking for many reasons, the main one being that ANY form of manufacturing is in line for an increase in mechanization and a decrease in staff.

THAT has been the main factor of our job loss. It includes mechanization in harvesting as well as manufacturing. The only growth or constant has been in transportation. We are getting further and further from the source of the feedstock to the monster mills we have created.

The main area of growth has been in the service industry – health, post secondary education (about twice as many students here than 20 years ago and more than twice as many people working in the field of post-secondary education) food services, retail services, etc.

We are slowly moving from grunt jobs to smart jobs. As a result, there is a lifestyle change. To draw such people and companies we need to adjust some of the personal services we provide in this city if we are to compete with cities of similar size. Indeed, because we are remote and a winter city, we have more of a challenge than those cities close to Vancouver or Victoria.

No one has done some serious thinking of that to see whether that is BS or not.

And, you can be sure that we are sitting here all by ourselves. There is no move afoot by the provincial government to assist interior and northern communities to move from primary industry to secondary and tertiary industries. They are funding infrastructure improvement in the lower mainland which will eat up more primary agricultural land and double the population in 20 to 30 years while we would be lucky to break the 100,000 thousand mark by that time.

Certainly those in cities such as Edmonton, Regina, Saskatoon, Winnipeg, Ottawa, Montreal, Quebec City will live in cold cities with relatively long winters and more snow and colder temperatures than we have in PG.

Include Toronto in that group and you have half the country living in cities as cold as and colder than PG.

Try Kamloops and Nanaimo and Chilliwack. Those are close to the size of PG. Why are you afraid to deal with cities closer to our size?

Kamloops is in the midst of where we are. They voted in a Mayor whose platform included building a PAC within 5 years. They have a city committee working in the open, rather than behind closed doors. Nanaimo has had a wonderful theatre for over 10 years and are fundraising to add a 200 or so seat theatre which would then act more like a PAC than simply a single theatre. Chilliwack just competed a PAC with two theatre spaced plus a 6,000sf space for their conservatory of music which is a teaching space with practice rooms. Ours works out of a church basement.

When Kelowna built the original city theatre they were smaller than PG and the community on the West Kelowna was just a glint in people’s eyes.

Why do people not understand such simple facts?

I know, they have a very narrow focus of understanding, like horses with blinders on

Forgot that Kamloops has Sagebrush Theatre as well.

guesswhat wrote: “The business plan even shows up to $1,794,095 in operating costs for a year!”

So, you are not being honest!!!!!!

That is the cost side of the ledger. How about giving us the income side of the ledger?

I know what it is. But I want YOU to tell people here what the net cost is that the City would have to fund.

After you do that, I want someone in the PAC Society to come and tell us what the revised figure is and why they think the revised figure is workable.

That info is owed to the citizens of this community!!!

They snuck around that figure at Council because they said $300,000 in five years. What about years 1, 2, 3, and 4?

Are these optimistic, pessimistic or average projections? In other words, what is the level of risk that it will be more than $300,000 in 2013 dollars? Time to add that little proviso on it.

“Actually, one only has to look at the CN Centre when it first opened up. For years that thing was operating as a dud until we Glen Mikkelsen came along. He turned that place around”

====================================

I was going to mention this on an earlier thread but it got locked. The question posed was in regards to the types of events that PG would possibly be missing out on by not having a PAC.

I would suggest that all one has to do is look at the types of events that PG was missing out on with the CN Centre until Mikkelsen came along.

Before you can attract the acts, you need the facilities. Once you have the facilities you need competent management. There is no reason whatsoever that PG couldn’t have the same success bringing performances into a PAC in the same way that Mikklesen has done it for the larger CN Centre.

For every large act that successfully plays CN Centre, there are probably 100 acts that could successfully play a smaller PAC. There are countless cities across Canada that have arenas the size of CN Centre plus a PAC and they help to ensure that a variety of performances can be accommodated for a variety of interests.

Why are some people in PG so against building a community that reflects the interest of a diverse population? What are you scared of?

Right Gus, that is the cost side…. The people have not been told – plain and simple.

The fact remains the whole truth has not come out. With a decline of population it would make common sense the income side would not be there.

I know what it is, but I want YOU to tell people here – plain and simple You tell them. It is your want not mine.

The figures need to be redone by the PAC and not paid by us the taxpayers through city hall.

Like I asked previously why did the PAC not come up with the appropriate figures to today’s standards?

You are not being honest to the citizens of this city if you agree to use figures over 5 years old!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

10 million or 40 million. A referendum to ask the taxpayer if they are willing to have the city borrow the required amount of money to build the PAC and ongoing yearly costs of $300,000.00 – $400,000.00. If it passes so be it and all taxpayers have had their say. The only real fair way with everything up front and no behind the scenes deals.

Gus always has the option of moving to a more cosmopolitan city that has an existing PAC and a greater appreciation of the arts. Be cheaper for the taxpayers of PG to pay the moving expenses of the 600 supporters than to finance a white elephant to the tune of $80mm+ after carrying costs.

Gus:”We are a small gritty mill town in the hinterlands of BC.”

Well, only trees have roots and can’t move the way people can!

If I felt as negative about this city I wouldn’t live here another day!

Referendum time… The mayor and council don’t represent us so how about we get to vote on it?

NMG. Why do you care? You don’t live here, you take every advantage you can to slam the city &/or it’s residents. What does it matter to you what the tax paying citizens of PG do with their money & time? If the Ottawa area is as fantastic as you claim why should you even give PG a second thought or even have the time to do so.
To generalize what all of PG thinks from less than 20 perspectives?? If I was to extrapolate this way I would think that all Ottawa is comprised of is lying, self serving blowhards that don’t have an iota of moral, ethic or backbone. Of course I don’t think ALL of Ottawa is like that, but you hopefully get the point. ;) Let this go to a referendum, then come back & make the generalist observation you have come to.

NMG, didn’t you move away?

Let me spell it out for you NMG. Increased taxes is what we don’t want! Why can’t a private group raise the money and build the darn thing? You compare a PAC to baseball diamonds and hockey arenas which is like comparing a Volkswagon Beetle to a Ferrari! One has a maintenance cost which is very little where the other is much more expensive. 35.00 more per household is too much when our utility bills have more than doubled by the time the snow removal levy kicks in early 2014.

We aren’t against community we have to start living within our means or finding to stop wasting money.

Some people like small gritty mill towns!

Still waiting for that list of awsome performances we are missing out on.

guesswhat … and others.

As I wrote earlier, I am no longer with the PAC so do not blame me for how they are acting now.

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When it comes to NMG, how dare anyone criticize an individual who comes from a long time PG family and returns here for family visits.

I have been here for 40 years.

His and my opinions about places is as valid as anyone else’s on here. I know some of you, but not others. Some have more years here than others.

We ALL think our opinions count on here. For some reason those people who feel that trying to improve things in a different way than others try to improve things is wrong and people should move instead.

That is not logical.

The first rule of “how do you improve something” is to get active. I do not see a single one of you starting a ratepayers association and fighting for what you believe in when it comes to City spending.

At least I am doing something about what I believe in.

There is one other person on here that has on occasion fought for what he believes in and has had some success with it.

I applaud those people. Those of you who can get away from the place you live in and post from and do nothing but bitch on here need to get out and become active.