Another study, just great, what a bloody waste of time and money. IPG should be dissolved and save us the 1 Million a year it costs to operate. Training and recruitment at home should be priority if industry wants outside workers then pay for themselves as in the past.

Agreed. WTF, the Province is paying companies to bring in labour from other parts of the country or even other countries? This is pure corporate welfare.

Problem!

Take on an apprentice, get them all trained up then poof off to the oil patch they go to make double the money!

This is a piecemeal program dealing with a problem that is much bigger than a local. It needs a western if not national solution.

This little blurb does not even indicate what the shortages of skills are. As stated already, if they are the kind of skills required in the oil/gas patch, then lots of luck in keeping anyone here that is brought here.

What is required to train those who are local, or at least in the interior of BC, who are unemployed or underemployed. Are we talking professionals, journeymen, skills which take short training such as a year and even six months?

Define the problem a bit more clearly before even hiring anyone to take some action.

Maybe that is what the so-called consultants are doing.

Solution

Pay them more.

We are seeing the effect of a local inflationary economy which draws people from other parts of the country that also has relatively low unemployment in the skill sets required to feed that economy.

With what they are paying in Alberta to work in the Oil Industry we will see a steady loss of any trades, steam tickets, engineers etc. The pay, benefits etc offered in the Oil Industry cant be matched here in BC.

The all mighty dollar speaks the loudest and can you blame anyone for wanting to make the most they can.. With companies up there offering a week in a week out and fly you to and from home and while at the oil patch you live in a completely free camp who wouldnt if they could and worked into their plans.

If they start flying out of PG ( which heard is in the works ) we will loose many more to the big money.

The next 2-5 years will really show how much all the cuts to the trades programs etc our provincial gov have hurt us.

Where is the incentive to employers to take on new workers they have to try to train when right from the get-go the whole concept of Worker’s Compensation is now no longer based on ‘no-fault’ insurance, but has changed to a set-up where EVERY accident is the EMPLOYER’S fault? Whether it is or not.

What sane small business employer is going to put his neck in a noose like that?

No one is saying that there shouldn’t be great emphasis on workplace safety, and that it is vital that such an emphasis be included in worker training.

But we have gone completely overboard with the kind of regimen that is imposed on employers nowadays. Those in government seem to assume those of us who employ have endless funds, that we can easily afford to ‘document’ everything we do in regards to employee instruction.

Even though this ‘documentation’ isn’t even going to be a complete defense against the liability imposed on the employer if there is an accident that isn’t his fault. We are assumed to have the deepest pockets, and those are the ones the powers-that-be are out to pick.

And the latest thing is this ‘anti-bullying’ nonsense. That’s opened a whole new can of worms with the potential for them to eat any small business employer alive.

Only skilled workers? What about the 100s of unskilled workers who are being replaced in town? I still think gov’t of all stripes are being duped into aiding and abetting the race to the bottom, by being told the lie that there is no one around who can adequately fill the position.

Here is the company they have hired.

http://www.malatest.com

I cannot see one thing on that web page promoting the company’s expertise that would give them the skill set to do the work required to bring any folks here.

If I were hiring a company to do an evaluation of how well IPG is performing its objectives, then this company would seem to fit the skills profile required for that.

This is as close as it gets based on the web promotion:

“We are nationally recognized for our research ASCERTAINING THE EFFECTIVENESS/IMPACT OF PROGRAMS directed at assisting unemployed individuals re-enter the workforce, or to enhance the skills of existing workers.”

Their main thrust is to measure qualitative and quantitative program outputs. That is not what this is about.

They are not specialized in Human Resource solutions.

Here is a start, the current quarterly report which identifies the hiring intentions of surveyed companies by regions in Canada.

Just a quick skim through it shows that Thunder Bay is not projecting any growth while the industrial heart of Ontario is projecting growth in the 10 to 20% range. Quebec is projecting a negative “growth”. The Maritimes are at a mid-level and the west is projecting 18%

[url]
http://manpower.ca/MP-CA-File-Pile/About-Us/MEOS/4Q13/4Q13-EOS-Brochure-EN.pdf%5B/url%5D

Get the raw data from that survey, and there is the easy half of the work done.

Now to engage some people in targeted areas – through Canada Manpower as well as business associations and business to business.

Most important, engage those businesses who say they need people. Get them to put money where their mouths are. Verify that they actually mean what they say so that this does not become a fishing trip of nothing.

http://manpower.ca/MP-CA-File-Pile/About-Us/MEOS/4Q13/4Q13-EOS-Brochure-EN.pdf

“If they start flying out of PG ( which heard is in the works ) we will loose many more to the big money.”
“They” already fly out of Prince George. NT Air charters. I drop my loved one off, and the place is full of guys wearing big blue jackets, headed for The Patch.
If my loved one could make the $$ in Prince George, would stay. There is a big sacrifice to leaving for work, not being home for the small stuff. But the money is so enticing. Until the local companies can pay more, people will continue to leave for money. Study it all you want, this will not change. Train all the people you want, the money will pull them north too. It all comes down to money.

Posted by: Huh on December 2 2013 8:31 AM
Only skilled workers? What about the 100s of unskilled workers who are being replaced in town?

————

I’m trying to follow you here. Who are these unskilled workers and who or what are they being replaced by?

axeman….I have noticed over the last few years that some of my co-workers have been replaced by Zombies playing with hand held communication devices.

Employers may not have the deepest of pockets, but when it comes to duties, there are duties the employees and employers have to each other.

One of the duties of an employer is to provide a safe workplace. If it is not the employer’s ultimate responsibility, who else could it be? The worker has no authority to make change. The only thing a worker can do is to refuse unsafe work. And we all know where that gets one in the real world.

So, if that is the bullying you are referring to socredible, then so be it.

I bet you the unskilled workers are the workers at the front counter of the fast food industry.

How about janitorial services?

How about “chambermaids”?

How about retail clerks?

Just take any minimum wage worker and you have your relatively “unskilled” worker.

That is not to say that there are those who start of at that level and end up becoming shift managers and store managers.

30 years of not training apprentices, not to mention all the tradesmen retiring without passing on their knowledge…Houston we have a problem!!!!

Middle finger and X-it have summed it up nicely IMHO.
It always amazes me how we can build high tech devices and vehicles that run flawlessly but can’t get a qualified person to fix anything.I guess its throw away for now till the crunch comes .

News2me.. sorry should have said DIRECT flights to PG and back.. right now its off to edmonton or calgary then home or the Land of oil.

This skilled worker shortage that has so caught all levels of government off guard (over and over again!) was manifesting in the mid 1990’s
The trouble here is that any effort put forth by a government ministry is subject to election cycles. It is foolish to expect any level of government to look after this problem, all they can do is make announcements and commission studies.
Hint: a good growth industry is in the ‘study’ business, especially if you have courted friends in high places.

It is up to employers and their respective associations to make it happen. Sure, some of the people you train will leave for greener pastures once they have some kind of qualifications, but some won’t, either.
If you make sure that your workplace is one that employees enjoy, and one where they feel wanted, needed, and as if they are making a difference, people will stay, some will come back from other pastures with a greater range of experience. Of course you also have to pay them well too. Not everyone wants to live in a camp 3 weeks out of a month, even if they are making really good money.
Give them a good work environment and reasonable pay and some would rather be ‘home every night’ as opposed to living out for weeks then spending a couple days a month in or getting to airports.
metalman.

Metalman.. the oil field companies are all migrating to a week in a week out.. so no longer spending all this time away. Also you travel one day on them..the other on you. The pulpmills and surrounding industries do pay a good wage etc..but the Oil companies pay huge wages and bonuses etc. With what they pay thier employees you can see just how over priced oil is.

There are so many variables that play into this.. And you cant really place the blame or route casue on one cohort alone. Which is why you need to study this and come up with some reliable stats.

The reality is for this area is when the unviverstiy came in in the 1990’s the later half of that decade the focus in highschools was to get a degree and trades were seen as “dirty work”. Now you have a bunch of liberal arts and other degrees like this with no marketable job skills. This has changed quite a bit in the later half of the 2000’s with high schools really promoting the trades and now these people are finally getting certified and work ready but with the baby boomers in trades leaving the workforce these new trades people are barely filling the gap.

Another huge shift in the workforce is younger people are no longer job loyal which creates a huge investment risk for businesses taking on and hiring new people. The other part is there hasnt been enough investment and promomotion in college programs that allign with the job trends in this reigon.

Put all this together and you have yourself a perfect storm where accademics, business, and government has failed the job market..

Just my personal observation with my 20 years work experince in various industrial settings..

I am sure at some point 300 years ago someone complained “I cant do business anymore, those Hudson Bay guys are giving away more wool blankets per beaver pelt than I can afford”.
Nothing has really changed and the market will continue to adjust and realign without any government studies. ;)

@Interceptor: People who complain… now there’s an area where there will never be a gap.

“The reality is for this area is when the unviverstiy came in in the 1990’s the later half of that decade the focus in highschools was to get a degree and trades were seen as “dirty work”. Now you have a bunch of liberal arts and other degrees like this with no marketable job skills. This has changed quite a bit in the later half of the 2000’s with high schools really promoting the trades and now these people are finally getting certified and work ready but with the baby boomers in trades leaving the workforce these new trades people are barely filling the gap”

===================================

Trades are certainly one piece of the puzzle, but your post is also generalizing quite a bit as there are LOADS of skilled jobs out there that require a university degree (or higher) that simply aren’t available in the PG market.

You also need to consider that many students who graduate from UNBC are not sticking around in PG to search for jobs if they have a specialization that cannot find them work locally. As such, you may see a greater proportion of students with “non-marketable” degrees hanging around PG and that could bias your opinion as to the usefulness of that degree. The job market in the major cities in Canada and beyond is far more diverse than in PG and that’s another reason why young people don’t stick around, especially when they have that degree and want to use it.

I think what needs to be done is to evaluate the skilled jobs that are required for the “PG market” and then to develop a plan to bring those people there or to start training them at local institutions.

“The job market in the major cities in Canada and beyond is far more diverse than in PG and that’s another reason why young people don’t stick around, especially when they have that degree and want to use it.”

NMG makes a valid point. When I moved away, I left for a number of reasons (One usually doesn’t make a life altering decision like this because of one singular thing). Lack of employment opportunities was one of the top reasons.

I had finished getting my “piece of paper” from BCIT and found that only 1% of job opportunities available to me to apply on were in the Central Interior.

A little over 70% of the opportunities were in the lower mainland. Yes I knew I would be competing against a lot more people, but at least there was something for me to compete on.

Good posts, NMG and Pylot. I am one of the lucky ones who found a job in PG which made use of my degree and skillset. If I ever lost my job, I would have to move to a bigger centre to find similar work.

“I’m trying to follow you here. Who are these unskilled workers and who or what are they being replaced by?” Been to any timmys lately or Arbys?

I echo JB’s comments on the quality of NMG’s and Pylot’s posts. Metalman’s comments ring true for me also.

We need to accept that Prince George may not be as competitive or attractive in many ways as other employment regions. When workers leave the local area for the oil patch, we need to look at why? Money is definitely a factor. How is it the oil industry can pay big bucks and forestry doesn’t? And I don’t buy the fact that oil is overpriced is the key factor. Perhaps the local forestry industry has been in an oversupply of workers since the 80s and the remaining corporate HR folks don’t know how to manage in a labor shortage. After all, it has been 30+ years since they have really had to recruit.

Also, who are these employers that keep on screaming skills shortage? It would be really interesting to see company names, positions, desired skill sets, entry level salaries, employee turn over rates, etc.

I suspect that the issues are much deeper that a shortage of skilled workers. Management styles, corporate business models, workplace culture, etc. need to be examined. IPGs project may only addressing a symptom and not the core issue or problem.

Huh: “Been to any timmys lately or Arbys? “

Yeah. Lots of people there from other countries working jobs that Canadians don’t want.

I am pleasantly surprised at the quality of the recent posts on this thread!!!

However, northman made what I consider to be a bit of a one sided remark.

“Another huge shift in the workforce is younger people are no longer job loyal …..”

We must remember that there is a simple reason for that. Companies are no longer worker loyal either. I am not blaming the companies individually for that. It has come about in part because other businesses are also not as supplier loyal as they used to be either.

The whole world economy has become more competitive and the employees (whether union or non union, management or workers) as well as small, non competitive companies are the “victims”.

It is the business and worker version of “natural selection”.

The thing is, it is not biological, over which we have had little control in the past, it is totally man-made and humans have some successes, but also plenty of failures.

The neo-cons say that is life. The social planners are saying we cannot treat each other that way.

And the war continues with lots of collateral damage.

Remember that as long as workers commute to work, the majority of the money made accrues to the home base. The houses are bought here, the groceries are bought here, the children go to school here, etc. etc.

So far, those who teach and those who sell things and those who provide recreation here and food here live here.

So, the phenomenon is that for the job created in Alberta or in Brazil, many of the normal “multiplier” jobs associated with that job in a remote location actually accrue to the home base.

A new model has to be built by economists in order to provide a better look at the impact of commuting jobs.

This is actually not all that new. People who work on merchant and even naval ships have been doing this for centuries, as have those in long haul transportation, in world wide consulting and sales, etc. etc.

The number of people who commute considerable distances seems to be starting to increase. In fact, large companies have been building that into their operations for some time and the current literature speaks about that becoming more common.

Posted by: P Val on December 2 2013 10:57 AM
News2me.. sorry should have said DIRECT flights to PG and back.. right now its off to edmonton or calgary then home or the Land of oil.
What I may not have made clear enough is that NT Air is chartering direct flights straight out of P.G. to the Northern BC oil patch. Central Mountain Air has commercial flights directly to Ft.St.John. As long as the (oil) company is paying, doesn’t matter so much that these are pricey.
It is true that you still have to go through Vancouver to get to Edmonton though. ;)

gus and the rest of you; this is the Fly in Fly out phenomena I was commenting about in previous posts. I do not know to what extent local workers were flying in and out of the oil patch, but it sounds like a significant number.

On the other side of the coin, the increase in hotel capacity Prince George is currently experiencing speaks to the increase in fly in fly out (FIFO) workers to the 1,800 camps in northern BC. The workforce is changing, it is becoming migratory and portable.

I have no solutions, but I do notice the lack of economic impact FIFO workers have on the city of Prince George and surrounding communities. No doubt about it, natural resource extraction (mining and natural gas) is increasing in the north, but urban centres like PG continue to stagnate.

Australia is seeing a big part of their workforce becoming FIFO’s. This type of labour force does exact a toll on those workers and their families, as someone posted earlier on this discussion thread.

Here is an interesting read:

http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/fly-in-fly-out-workers-quitting-hard-life/story-e6frg12c-1226326651683

I agree with gus, there have been some very good comments on this story / topic.

I cant understand why we insist on bringing foreign engineering companys from the states and take the jobs away from the people who live in canada ? Are we as a nation that under educated about building gas plants or gold /coal mines which is in our own back yards ? All it is doing is taking jobs away from the people who live here. I find people who go to school for years never leave school they end up wanting a different career after all the time they spent on learning what they thought they wanted to do . There should be more on site training ! For the people that want to work and dont have university education dosent mean they are not capable of doing the work ! We need more people with experience in the field ! These types of practices are being used in England and other parts of the world.

So. Who is gonna be involved with this study? Unskilled workers from Tim’s? Can’t be skilled workers who are up in the oil patch who wouldn’t waste their time and their potential earnings. I know. A bunch of university grads who have never had a job that required skill in their whole life. Organizational skills, people skills, able to talk a good talk and in the end, nothing will come of it. Too many variables to blame anyone or any program. Where do I apply to study this problem? I got a jacket and tie. Ready to engage per diem. Without receipts though. I await. Can’t do anything about anything? I know. Just study it. We have a whole university ready for that “skill”.

“I cant understand why we insist on bringing foreign engineering companys from the states and take the jobs away from the people who live in Canada”

Should be easy to understand. The USA has not caught up yet with the economic recovery while Canada never went that deeply into recession other than parts of Ontario and Quebec and possibly Manitoba.

I came here in 1973. The post pulp mill boom was in its midst and within 5 years had wound down.

The firm which recruited me from Ontario did so on its own, as firms did in those days. It went from about 8 in the office to over 20. There were 4 people who were from PG, or at least had been here for more than 15 years by that time. The rest were recruited from Europe, Asia and eastern Canada with 2 or 3 coming from southern part of BC. All were either university trained or community college trained.

That is just one of many. CNC was just starting up. Most of the faculty were eventually hired from other parts of BC, Canada and the USA. So were those who are teaching at UNBC. So were most of the medical doctors, and other health professionals. Most of those who were machinists were hired from other parts of the world and Canada/USA.

It is the story of PG from the early part of 1960s to at least 1981 when the crash came. After that it slowed down with health and UNBC moving to the forefront.

The old forest products manufacturing industry started to become more productive and losing more and more jobs.

I do not recall too many people getting upset about hiring people from outside. It is what grew this City for about 2 decades. We had no 250NEWS type of communication facility. We merely went on doing what came naturally – growing businesses and growing a community.

Then it stopped and everything changed.

Why is there less of a company loyalty? Take a company in town here with about 200 employees that decides to terminate a position of an employee with 36 years service. That person is told to either relocate down south to retire, now. That employee has strong family ties here. Other employees see this and think WTF.

Oh that employee could have been moved into another position here with natural attrition.

As for degrees do all jobs need a degree or is that just part of the industrial education factory complex collecting money and stamping paper? Seems to be a lot of degrees out there but not much edumucating. World seems to be getting left wing dumber. Must be the high level of c02.

I crack myself up.