How nice, they can tell me how good the HST is for us. If they double it like they have in other jurisdictions, I guess it will be twice as good??

This information is being spoon fed to us by the same people who rammed it down our throats in the first place. I will have a hard time believing anything these crooks have to say. If they try hard to convince me how good it is for me, my natural reaction is....What are they up to?

This is all carefully controlled spin by the Liberals,designed to get us to forget about how they slid the HST in and the lies they told.
They have always figured that in time,we would forget all that and just accept it.
Not going to happen.
All anyone has to do is keep track of how much extra the HST costs them every month, and the things we now pay tax on that we didn't before.
The HST benefits business and the government.
None of the spin off benefits the Liberals told we would get from it have happened.
And they are not going to.
They DID lie...and they are STILL lying!

Liberal party talking points, paid for by the taxpayers.

Absolutely, Andy, and others not deceived by this latest move! The ONLY beneficiary of the HST will be the big Banks, and eventually, even they will lose out.

To Corporations and those who own them, who think they are going to benefit, they'll soon find that the "savings" to them engendered from the removal of PST will be recaptured by the government in Income Tax. The Federal government. BC will be stuck on the short end of the stick. Again.

To Banks, in a land where the average citizen is already $ 1.40 in hock to them for every $ 1.00 he gets in the disposable income to make his payments from, and still live, the HST is a windfall.

Because it taxes "spending", not only from that $ 1.00 of earnings left after personal Income Tax deductions et al have been removed from them, but from what the poor slob now has to BORROW, too. Just to enable him to live, (as it has now been mandated he SHALL live ~ all the growing number of rules and regulations governing his daily life).

Look at the beauty of the deal from the Bank's perspective. You might as well, because until we're prepared to change the current set-up, that's going to be the "ruling" perspective. No matter who becomes leader of what, or who we elect as government.

The HST raises the price of a whole range of goods and services to the Consumer. In the overall scheme of things, without a corresponding increase in his income that ISN'T 'costed' into the price of those goods and services, he has to go further into hock to access them.

Granted, some he can decline to purchase ~ like a now once in awhile restaurant meal. But others he CAN'T. And so he borrows more, or tries to spread his payments out longer. At a higher interest cost to him. Who benefits?

For the Corporation, the removal of PST improves the "bottom line" ~ the rate of profit. That's undeniable. Since the PRINCIPAL repayment of every Bank loan to business is not classed as a business 'Expense', but rather is a deduction from gross profit AFTER 'Expenses', any increase in net profit enables the Banks to write more loans. Who benefits?

You might say this is good, it means our economy is expanding. But remember this. EVERY new Bank loan dilutes the purchasing power of money already in existence. What happens? Prices rise. Who then needs MORE money to do what less was doing before? And WHERE do they get it from? Who benefits?

The HST is a BANKER'S Tax nirvanah. But within it are also the 'financial' seeds of the Banker's destruction, for such a set-up is not long sustainable. And, unfortunately, with things as they are, OUR 'financial' destruction, too.

Keep up the "pressure", people. Don't be gulled into thinking the war is won just because there's going to be a Referendum on HST next September. Right now, Recall is the ONLY sanction we have that's CERTAIN this tax will be killed AND WE WON'T GET SOMETHING WORSE.

There is only ONE thing the politician fears more than disappointing his friendly Banker ~ and that is the collective determination of THE PEOPLE. Those we elect are there to "yield to pressure". And it's up to US to apply a GREATER pressure than the 'merchants of money' can ever muster.

Well said socredible...as usual!

So....I wonder, what is the formula used to come up with a figure of 113,000 jobs, or is this just a number pulled off the top of someone's head.

Well, all the good posts have points of fact and opinion, but since there will be a REFERENDUM on the darn thing in the fall I will look at the site, inform myself, compare and later decide how to vote!

There is nothing to prevent the province from now lowering the PST part of the HST and give us a break - and yes, the HST was sneakily imposed on us! It's true, it actually happened and it should not have happened.

Oh, but there is, Prince George. Read the agreement that implemented it. The one made behind closed doors, without the approval of the BC Legislature, where it hadn't even been debated. There it states that the PST portion CANNOT be lowered for at least two years after its implementation. Only the PEOPLE of BC could make that agreement null and void now.

Well, if it cannot be lowered now (does that mean it cannot be raised either?) then it is a good thing that we can defeat it in September 2011! I can certainly wait that long! Can't you?

All recent polls indicate that it will be defeated and quite handily too!

Can we have more referendums (referenda) please at all levels, federal, provincial and municipal?

The proportional voting initiative was put to a people's referendum and I got a really warm and fuzzy feeling when I actually was allowed to make my choice in the voting booth - contrary to handing ALL the decision making over to a bunch of politicians every four years - only to have them break with regularity the most solemny made promises AFTER the election!

Now, when I get some time I will get back to reading the HST website. However, I may have to shovel some more snow or do other more mundane more important chores!

BTW, some party in B.C. is openly dead set against referendums, so be careful who you vote for!

That's right, Prince George, and for those who haven't guessed, that party is the NDP.

This is why the Recall effort is now so important. To ensure that future governments, whether they be Liberal, NDP, Conservative, Greens, BC First, Refederation, BC Social Credit, Reform, or whoever, realize that there is a useable'sanction' available to us to prevent them ~ any of them ~ from imposing taxes they have not sought nor received any mandate to bring in.

Imagine what would have happened if Carole James and the NDP had won the last election, only after she'd promised that her Party had no intentions of re-introducing the Corporation Capital Tax, say, if that question had been put to her during the election campaign.

And then, 72 days later, it was announced they were bringing that back. Do you suppose all those who are now pro-HST, mainly because they feel that THEY will benefit from it through receiving ITCs on their business purchases, would just quietly acquiesce?

That they'd just say, "Oh well, we don't like it, but that's democracy. In four years there'll be another election, and we'll vote them out."?

Dave Barrett's NDP government brought in just such a tax not long after they were elected in the early 1970's. And all of us who were in business then protested as vigorously as those opposed to HST now have done. For it was a tax on money we had ALREADY paid Income Tax on ~ the "retained earnings" we'd re-invested back into our businesses.

There was no Citizen Initiated Petition or Recall back then. All we could do was listen to promises made by the Opposition Socreds to end it, if and when they ever regained office. And listen we did, for the Socreds promised to repeal it, if they defeated the NDP in the next election.

They did defeat them, but the last vestiges of THAT tax, were finally repealed when Carol Taylor was BC Liberal Finance Minister a few years ago! Eight Premiers later!

So we don't exactly have a very good track record of getting what WE want when we take politicians at their word. And there's NOTHING, not one piece of LEGISLATION, that says the government HAS TO rescind the HST if we vote against it in September. "Business groups", those who launched suit against the 'Constitutionality' of the Petition to end the HST, could launch another suit to keep it in place. And, in all likelihood, they'd win.

Very informative for those of us who have a short memory! I remember when then Premier Glen Clark was strutting about and stating that "people should not have to wait years for the next election come around when in fact they should have the right to recall politicians with whom they are extremely dissatisfied." He then brought in the new Recall Legislation and made it so incredibly difficult to conduct a successful recall that it was basically semi-useless unless a targeted MLA would resign first in order to avoid recall altogether.

You stated earlier, "Only the PEOPLE of BC could make that agreement null and void now."

How? Or, how would they do it if the government simply ignores the referendum result in September?

On the barricades?

Take a look at the slate of candidates running for the big chair in the Liberal party,PrinceGeorge...do you really think they are going to give the people of B.C.a break on the HST?
They are diehard Campbell clones.
There will be no breaks and no mercy.
And we would all do well to remember that.
What we are seeing with the Liberals right now,is a concerted effort to keep themselves in power until 2013 and hopefully,win another election.
At any cost.
As far as they are concerned,come hell or high water,they cannot and must not lose.
The reasons for that remain to be seen,but I am willing to bet it is not for the good of the taxpayers in B.C.
I was a diehard Liberal supporter for many years,and now,they scare the hell out of me!

By supporting Recall, Prince George. Now. And not be diverted by all the other "red herring" issues the Liberals will try to raise to defeat it.

The promised Referendum in September is "toothless". The Liberals have no intention of reversing the HST, and they can easily use the "big business lobby groups" that support them to thwart a defeat of it in the Referendum. And keep that tax in place for years while the issue is battled out in Court.

There is NO Legislation making the Referendum results "binding", and none will be introduced and passed before September.

No government ever willingly gives up a means of taxation that increases its 'credit' with the Banks.

Not unless the Members of that government can gain some advantage for themselves personally out of it. And for their Party's main financial backers. AND ESPECIALLY, for the BANKS themselves.

The HST agreement can only be voided by the Legislature. The Liberal MLAs will never break ranks with the Premier, no matter who gets the job next. Not unless they fear for their own personal political survival MORE than they do the consequences of defying their leader. RIGHT NOW. Not after he, or she, and WE, have allowed them to "pick the plums of office" for another two years until 2013.

Recall terrifies them. They don't want to risk losing a job that rewards them with so much for doing so little.

We don't have to replace the Party forming government ~ all we need to do is impress upon them that they work for US FIRST. Not the Banks, first.

Taxation will always be necessary so long as private goods and services are to be acquired for public account.

But it should always be taxation that can be seen to be FAIR to ALL, and fairly shared by ALL.

Not designed to seem like it's "robbing Peter to pay Paul", when whoever gets to play "Paul" has his gang in office.

Especially when "Paul" still doesn't even realize how BOTH he and "Peter" are being royally suckered. And are BOTH going to end up a whole lot poorer and further in debt unless some fundamental changes are made.

"By supporting Recall, PrinceGeorge. Now."

The NDP (which would conceivably form government if enough Liberals are recalled)
has stated that a) the HST agreement is locked in for five years, nothing can be done now, b) that is has no plans or will not make a commitment to eliminate the HST in the future or ever!

It would cost a huge bundle to get out of it. Once confronted with that reality the voters would get a sticker shock!

In other words...we are stymied and stuck unless they do what they stated they would: Legislate it out of existence.

I am willing to wait. My MLA does not deserve to be subjected to a recall. All MLAs are expected to be leader and team supporters.

Chaos and internal rifts result if they are not, as witnessed by recent high visibility events.

That's what happens.

No MLA should be a Leader or Team Supporter if the Government he supports is out of control. In fact they should take the high road and sit as independents rather than support a leader who is treating the people of BC as a bunch of brainless idiots.

Lets not try and make a case for not recalling any MLA. There are lots of grounds for recall, not the least of which is their subservience to Campbell.

Have we forgotten about the BC Rail Sale, the Carbon Tax. The lowest minimum wage in Canada, The increase in medical fees, Appurtenancy, Overruns for the Olympics, hidden from us, by cutting deals with the Feds on the Provincial Portion of the security cost, and apparently paying a hidden toll to the Contractor of the Sea to Sky Highway. Im sure there are a number of things that I have missed.

Some people who profess to be against the Liberals, but who are willing to give them some rope on these issues, are in fact supporting them, and are trying to take the sting out of the HST so that we will fall asleep on this issue, and they will be able to keep the tax, and screw us to death.

The bottom line is recall keeps the pressure on the Government, and keeps the issue of the tax in the public eye. Without recall, there would be little or no press coverage, which would suit the Liberals just fine.

People need to stay the course. If this Government does not get rid of this bloody tax very soon, then recalls will continue right up to election day, after which hopefully the Liberals will disapear into the sunset.

In the web site link one can not copy their wording making debate on the issue wore difficult and less precise. But essentially they use language to say generally everything you paid GST on at 5% is now at 12%... yes that is correct, but is not a true statement, rather it is deception for duping people with a shinny object so to speak.

A true statement would distinguish the difference between the HST and the PST, as the 7% number they seem to say has its genus in the old PST. There are vast differences in the HST and PST.

Vast differences between the HST and PST in terms of taxing the cost of labor with a hidden flat tax. That is essentially where the additional tax revenue from this tax comes from to offset the Input Tax Credits (ITC) that the business now receives on other goods like automation, equipment, and supplies.

The only exception in the HST to this new flat tax on employees through a lack of an ITC is for legal services... ie no flat tax for the lawyers.

With the PST the tax simply did not apply to services... so yes some of the PST could be considered a flat tax on employment costs in a business not related to services. But by and large most small to medium businesses that generate the vast majority of employment and free enterprise of the people are service related business that were exempt from the PST.

A small to medium business that doesn't rotate stock, or process resources is likely to have the vast majority of its expenses in its employees with low margin potential businesses whom through their viability keeps others employed for often minimum wages, because that is all the profit margin available in the small value gap that exists between their services and the costs to perform those services... so if that value gap, which is small now, has gotten eaten up on the need to pay an increase in 7% for the revenue collected to pay the employees costs... a 7% increase in revenue in the form of the PST going to the HST.

So through taxing various low margin services among others for the gross revenue collected on those services its essentially a flat tax on employment... to subsidize an ITC to other business that spend their expenses on tangible goods or lawyers.

7 percent flat taxed added on to those making minimum wage for the most part... a minimum wage that has been frozen since the BC liberals came to power.

To buy off the public the BC liberals proposed reducing provincial income tax (on those that make enough to pay provincial income taxes) by what was essentially less than 1% of gross income. Essentially tax reduction of income tax, or not, the same income is being tax both on the income itself, as well as on the revenue generated to pay that income.

Funny how something as essential to the purpose of the PST to shield low margin service jobs in keeping them viable is not even mentioned on the 'government web site' making it less genuine than information on the full scope would have been. And strange how the ndp have no answer for that either.

I'll say it again the scope of the debate on the HST issue between the two major political parties in BC clearly shows that they do not represent in true fashion the notion of a free enterprise market place that aims for full employment through the private sector via small to medium business. The BC liberals clearly work for tax loop holes for their globalist corpocracy (the ones with economies of size that require less outsources services (+HST), than your average small business competing with them) to slip through these hidden tax advantages, and the ndp clearly work to increase government revenue for the civil service unions at the expense of the private free enterprise market place even when it comes to taking away jobs from minimum wages sectors with low margins who they profess to also represent (and soon will they hope once their private sector jobs are no longer viable and government assistance is required)... as long as the ndp can blame others for the policy and claim nothing can be done to reverse that bad policy now (Carol James)... and the liberals make it a debate about how similar the new HST is to itself (their marketing strategy).

As long at current politics is the case the real generators of employment in BC are not represented at all, and neither are the people that work in those industries... they need to find a new party and fast and get behind it because only by opening up the competition in BC politics will they ever have any chance at being represented in the future, whether these people reliant on the service employment sectors are the majority or not... the HST debate proves they have no voice in Victoria (and Ottawa for that matter) in today's politics.

AIMHO

No, I totally disagree, Prince George. Steven Harper has already publicly admitted that we can get out of the HST deal any time we choose. That the decision to keep it or dump it is solely up to British Columbians, and our Legislature.

With a Federal election possibly coming sometime this year, the last thing the Federal Tories want to do is impose any 'penalties' on BC for pre-maturely backing out of the hated HST deal. If Harper wants his long cherished majority, whatever portion of that $ 1.6 billion bribe we've already received to implement the HST will be ours to keep.

We might get less later on, but we won't be sending any of what we've already got back. Not as long as he needs our votes to put his Party over the top. He's just not that stupid.

I think the leadership of the NDP has been a bit duplicitous here, right from the beginning. The average NDPer wants the HST gone as much as he wants the Liberals gone. And his Party to push for both.

But his Party's guiding lights abhor the thought that the Public could upset this tax. Or any tax, for that matter.

Because this would set a precedent that could prevent THEM from imposing taxes they had never openly sought or been given a mandate to bring in, if they become government in the future.

They, too, could face Recall, for doing something like that. Once the public sees that it works.

As well, if they got in, they'd love to continue to enjoy the revenues the HST will bring in. Just like the Bill Bennett Socreds, and later administrations right up to the present one, took a long, long time to fully get rid of the Corporation Capital Tax.

All MLAs are expected to put the wishes of their Constituents FIRST. With the HST, it's certainly not hard for anyone to determine what the wishes of most British Columbians are. Sure, we elect them to form a government we hope will go in a certain direction, and they have to be team players and follow the leader to do that.

But there's a BIG difference between making a concerted effort towards a direction the Public has indicated it wants to go, and BLIND OBEDIENCE to the guy at the top when he's taking them somewhere else.

We expect, and even demand, since at least 1944, that our soldiers refuse to obey any order that a superior officer gives them that contravenes establised conventions governing expected conduct in war.

We hanged a whole lot of Nazis after they were tried at Nuremburg, and attempted unsuccesfully to use in defense of their wartime actions, and the atrocities that resulted, "I was only following orders."

The Liberal MLAs, good, bad, or indifferent have to be just as "responsible" for their actions. Not just at the date of the next election, which has now been "fixed" years hence. But at ANY time during their term of office.

In WAC Bennett's time, his government had its share of 'mavericks' in it. They weren't booted from caucus because they openly criticised their leader, or the direction the government was taking. They spoke up, that was expected of them in Social Credit, back when it WAS still advocating some of the principles of 'Social Credit'. Read some old newspapers from that era, and you'll see what I mean. Some of those Socred MLAs must've been more a thorn in Bennett's side than the Opposition ones were.

Bennett himself was always ready to "go to the people" if there was doubt as to their continued support for what he had done, or wanted to do. He could do that because he worked FOR THE PEOPLE ~ ALL of us. Even though many would disagree with that. We had a chance to vote him out for taking controversial actions, and right on the heels of taking those actions. Not years later.

The Campbell government's excuses for implementing the HST have been shown to be riddled with lies. If this tax IS so "good" for us, and as vital as they've made it out to be, he, or his successors, shouldn't be afraid to fight an election on that issue. Right now, not in 2013.

Why, in any 'democracy', should any government try to lead in a direction most people DON'T want to go?

Billions for the Bankers, Debts for the People. No opposition here I suspect.

Regarding the HST site, you should be more concerned about what information is not provided. HST on the Management fees of your RRSP's and Retirement Savings, HST on postage. Start your own list as you find out what we were not told about. They said they could not provide an exhaustive list of everything that will be taxed with HST. Why not?

Ask your local Chamber of Commerce why they are supporting the implementation of the HST? I pulled my membership when I became aware of their position.

As far as I am concerned, they are no longer representing me. I'm done.

One wonders why there has not been a similar uproar in Ontario over the implementation of the HST, at the same time as it was here in BC.

Do they know something we don't, are they "smarter" than us, or maybe, are they all just "sheep" with no spine, unlike all us "tough nuts" in BC?

Surely, if this tax is as bad as we insist it is, then it must be having the same effect on the taxpayers in Ontario too.

Are they too scared to voice an opinion in Ontario, or are they just wondering why the people of BC apparently haven't figured out this issue yet, or what?

Something strange here, with the virtual silence from Ontarians, and the slavering negatives flying around BC about the issue.

Could it possibly be that "harmonization" in Ontario DIDN'T involve putting a new tax on as large a range of goods and services as it has here?

That more of those things were already taxed under their PST, and the HST there was more of an 'administrative' shift than an actual, large scale 'tax' shift, as it's been here?

Regardless, how can WE, as British Columbian CONSUMERS, ever be advantaged by a tax which makes so many of the goods and services we need and want MORE expensive TO US?

The government has often said the HST is "revenue neutral". Perhaps, to them, in terms of their total take from it, it may be. But WE'RE on the other side of the coin that goes to make up that take, and it's certainly not "expenditure neutral" to US.

We are paying MORE, at least 7% more, to maintain the same standard of living we had before. In no way can this be seen as a sign of 'progress', in any way, shape, or form.

Campbell has said he HAD to introduce this tax to be "competitive" with Ontario. But he neglected to say IN JUST WHAT AREAS are we supposed to be competitive.

Their industries are completely different from ours, even the resource extractive ones.

The minerals mined there are not, to any large extent, the same minerals as are mined here. They have no coal, virtually no oil or natural gas. They are nuclear, from mining and processing uranium right through to generating electricity with it. We are not.

Their forests are composed of different species, and their lumber goes to different markets, than ours does. They have a large steel industry feeding a long established automotive and industrial base. We do not, nor are ever likely to have that same type of industrial base here. So just WHERE are we going to lag in 'competitiveness' if we didn't move to the HST? I'd really like to know.

Socredible:"No, I totally disagree, Prince George. Steven Harper has already publicly admitted that we can get out of the HST deal any time we choose. That the decision to keep it or dump it is solely up to British Columbians, and our Legislature."

Too bad you "totally" disagree! I disagree with what Harper did. Harper is laughing his head off! He is the one that dangled the carrot in front of and waved the stick at B.C. with the HST, even putting a time limit for going for the HST, or losing the opportunity and the 2 billion bucks or so forever.

How do you know if the NDP would not have given in to Harper's manipulations had it been offered the dough together with the deadline?

If B.C. retracts and opts out now, Harper is laughing all the way to the bank! He will get all his money back plus penalties and the B.C. government will have scorn and abuse heaped upon it by those who usually sit in glass houses themselves!

Campbell should not have fallen for the old salesman's trick of *the offer expires at midnight* but he should have put it to a referendum after having given everybody sufficient time and information to evaluate the pros and cons of it.

He didn't. He is stepping down, basically admitting that he mishandled the puck and it cost him his popularity.

He knows where he stepped over the line.

That's it. This thing can be spun into a huge saga, with bankers, Bilderbergers, capitalism vs. socialism, corporation profits, exports and imports and so forth.

Let's wait for September, conduct as many recall campaigns as possible (it's legal, after all) and enjoy the coming spring and summer!

HST or VAT in many other countries (in Europe, especially) is in the high teens (16%) and low twenties (21%) so we don't really have it THAT bad yet.

Additionally, if this government is put to pasture and replaced with another one, we will not be off any better but worse, going by past experience.

Also, that government will *not come clean* (using one of its favourite expressions) on the HST and a whole host of other pressing issues.

Then why do we even continue to bother to vote?

Sure, the Federal government wants every Province to adopt the HST. In BC's case, they'll get back in increased Income Taxes on all those corporations, large, medium and small, who think they're benefiting so much from the HST as much as the ONE TIME bribe ~ EVERY year.

The guy at the top here was too befuddled to see that. Even after his own former Finance Minister, Carol Taylor, pointed it out to him.

Did Harper sucker him to sell him on HST? I rather doubt it. I think the ideological bone-head wandered into the Federal HST sales office all on his own, desperate to sign on the dotted line. The short-term political possibilities of the one time bribe were too much of a temptation to him to turn down. This guy has the mentality of a land-pimping property speculator. He's into flipping the farm for a quick buck, not trying to work it.

Prince George:-"HST or VAT in many other countries (in Europe, especially) is in the high teens (16%) and low twenties (21%) so we don't really have it THAT bad yet."
-----------------------------------------
YET. But we will, the global race to the bottom demands it.

And just look at those countries. Every one of them has a LARGER overall debt load now than when they implemented VAT. Not just figuratively, but in ratio to actual growth in their economies. And we want to emulate THAT? Why? Do we feel misery likes company that much?

THEY are now on an "austerity" kick. Have they learned NOTHING from their experiences in the 1920's and 1930's, when that was the brand of poison prescribed to cure them then, too? Surely it'll only be a matter of time, and possibly a speed up in the timing of the next election, before we'll be set on the same path, too.

Also VAT is value added... meaning it comes from the value gap and not the gross revenue like the HST does.

If the Canadian federal government gave an ITC credit for the cost of labor (such as tangible goods get) we could call ours a VAT as well. Maybe the HST wouldn't be such a tax grab then... maybe it wouldn't be such a regressive tax targeted primarily at low income minimum wage earners then... the consumers would still pay for it, but the companies wouldn't be penalized for supporting their workers.

If the Canadian government did that, Eagle, there'd be no point to having that kind of tax. It would apply then only to business profits, and they're already taxed through Income Tax. You may not believe it, but business profits, in general, have been diminishing for years.