"According to a letter written to City Council, components 1 and 3 are all but complete."

Isn't that the same as ...It's not finished.

Instead of talking like a politician,maybe just say the truth.

Sorry for the rant but this is getting old.

another money pit for the city.
User groups already complain about the price to rent Vanier Hall and the Playhouse. A performing art center will have way more costs and staffing. That means that the cost of renting the center will be way higher. Local groups already complain alot about the current pricing. This building will sit empty alot. Unless the local groups are subsidized in the rates. Shows that book the buildings barely reach capacity of the venues here already. The theory of "we will build it, they will come " is a joke. How many new shows will come to town and how many would it take to cover the costs. The populations of PG will only support so many performances. The CN center already has a hard time selling out seats. Vanier Hall and the Playhouse sit empty most of the year. Outside Groups will book the venue that is more cost effect. Most of the traveling shows that need facilities of 800 seats are small and can fit in any theater, state of the art or not. Pricing usually talks. The new center will have to price its self alot higher than Vanier hall to cover its costs. Will local groups pay for this? Will small traveling shows with tight budgets pick the higer price over a lower price for the venue?

This is going to make for a huge increae in taxes over the next few years and will be sold to the public as an increase due to snow removal and road repair, that never gets done. I think those people who need to stay in PG for work will be looking to relocate outside city limits if possible, to avoid the massive tax hikes that are surely on the way. I already have my retirement place picked out that is no where near PG and their spendthrift bureaucrats. I also have some acreage for sale just outside city limits...any takers?

With the civic elections coming in November, it is a perfect opportunity to put it to the taxpayers if the city should go another $15 million in debt(assuming participation by the province and feds) to fund the PAC.

The roads and other infrastructure are underfunded literally crumbling around us. The PAC would add hundreds of thousands per year in operation and staffing costs, further hampering the city's ability to repair roads, etc.

Delaying maintenance on infrastructure can cause costs to skyrocket. Look at the RCMP building, only 30 years old and lack of upkeep will now cost us $50 million for a replacement.


This project should be put on the BACK shelf.

PAC go away, we already have facilities that are underused. Pac peaple if this is such a great idea why don't you folks put up your own money? As the saying goes, put up or shut up.

will be good for downtown if goes there.

Northern Sports Centre = $30 million
PAC= $40-$45 million???!!

Are you kidding me?? The NSC dwarfs this project in size, scope and everything else!! Are the freakin' seats made of gold in the PAC?? Evian water taps instead of city water???

Monday nights city council meeting sounds like a good time for a demonstration!

A message to the Prince George Performing Arts Society.

BUZZ OFF, WE'RE BROKE.

dubya tee efff

Holy crow. Best give it a shake PG... time to take the credit cards away from council... november isn't too far away.

Are these artsy fartsy people capable of even running this thing if it did get off the ground?

Let me see, they were given $150,000 in Dec 2008 to complete a feasibility study. It was not completed, instead an extension was granted. Now they are looking for another extension because although they have the design concept and illustration complete and have worked with the City to finalize a site, they don't have a detailed BUSINESS PLAN.

Typical pie in the sky society. Come back to earth and let's get down to brass tacks—tell me why taxpayers should finance this frou frou endeavor in a time that portends future economical restraints.

"Society spokesperson Jo Graber says with a Federal election underway and a provincial election likely, there needs to be a little more flexibility in the completion time of this report."


Grasping at straws as to the reason for the delay in presenting the report. Come on---events that MIGHT happen(provincial election) are delaying it? What's next--- we were busy preparing for the return of Halley's Comet due in 2061.


I am not surprised that it the business plan that is the hold up. When potential major users such as Theater Northwest have said that it is too rich for their blood it must be hard to come up with numbers that are palatable.

The Prince George Performing Arts Centre Society has signed up a clear majority of PG citizens by selling 20 dollar memberships.

Signing up so many people demonstrates the determination and committment of the general public to back this project not only now but for generations to come by sold out events. It has also completed several fund raising lotteries in the last few years, similar to the home lotteries which raise funds for other organizations.

A lot of money has been raised.

With all that money already in the bank the three levels of government will no doubt provide the relatively small amount still needed to have the Arts Centre up and running within a year. There will be no tax increase to all the already stressed out homeowners.*

*It's April 2nd, so this comment is only one day late!

if you want a PAC, hold a fund raiser.
NO PUBLIC FUNDING, PERIOD.

NO CITY FUNDING
NO TAXPAYER CASH
NO BORROWING

RAISE THE CASH, THEN YOU CAN DO WHAT YOU WANT.

I have to agree with all of the post. what I would like to know, who axactly will be using the pac. What groups ect. ect. this has never been mentioned before. Yes and Theatre North West will not be using the pac. I like it just fine where they are, lawn chairs and all.

I think the PAC society should demonstrate to this city that there is an actual need/desire in this community for such a facility by going out into the community and selling sponsorship subscriptions, let's say at ten or twenty dollars per person.

Set up some tables at Pine Centre, Canadian Tire, Walmart, London Drugs, etc and start collecting seed money while measuring the actual appetite out there!

Then, come back with the numbers!

We need such a huge number of other things (replacing water and sewer lines, sidewalks, repaving whole streets...) including a brand new police station, that we can not take on another 45 million dollar committment which can be postponed until the PAC society has raised most of the funds, even if it takes 5 to 10 years!

If there is such a tremendous need for this let there be the proof in the pudding in the form of real dollars coming from those who must have it!

There are already other venues one of which has also 800 seats.

It is NOT an emergency!

The proposed amount wouldn't cover the cost to fix our pot holes. If we can't afford to maintain our existing infrastructure, Why borrow more money to build something for the small percentige of people who would actually make use of it?

The first objective of any project is a business plan. What is the project cost, and future operating costs weighed against the potential revenue. Don't go looking for a building site before it is known if the project is viable. 27 months would seem more than ample time to come up with a realistic business plan.

In the case of a PAC anyone would have to be dreaming in technicolor to expect revenues to payback construction costs and operating costs. It would be a stretch for the revenue generated from the PAC to even cover the operating costs involved.

Unless the taxpayer is prepared for the city to take on even more debt the thoughts of a PAC should die a quiet death.

Rodgers should stick to his word and put the PAC to referendum this fall during the municipal elections and not go behind the taxpayers back and use the reverse petition procedure city councils so fondly use to fund projects of this magnitude.

"if you want a KIN4, hold a fund raiser.
NO PUBLIC FUNDING, PERIOD.

NO CITY FUNDING
NO TAXPAYER CASH
NO BORROWING

RAISE THE CASH, THEN YOU CAN DO WHAT YOU WANT.

Guess how many 20 dollar donations they need to cover 40 million? Don't be telling us thay have tons of money saved up.

I feel if you can't afford it yuo really don't ned it. Any one who lives on a budget can tell you that much.
I agree tha come election time would be a good time to put this PAC to a vote. Something tells me they won't get the support they think is out there.
Another option might be if they want the center, fine...figure out if it can sustain itself , maybe ask the city to help write a loan, the operative word is LOAN... if those from the PAC group can't prove it can sustain itself then we really don't need it at this time.

i think city infrastructure is much more important that a performing center, a orchestra, hockey rinks or any of teh hunderds of other "it would be nice to have" projects flying around right now.

This project was bogus at best from the **get go**

1. It was something that was dreamed up by a very small number of people in Prince George.

2. There are not enough performances that come to Prince George that would warrant such an expenditure.

3. Being a *Copy Cat* City we see a PAC in other Cities Ie; Nanaimo, Kelowna, and we say **We want one too**

4. There have been a number of performances that came to Prince George that were held at Vanier Hall, or the Playhouse Theatre and they couldnt fill the seats. In fact one Pianist was only able to attract 37 people.

5. The cost of the PAC at $40 or $50 Million is prohibitive.

6. When they did the indepth analysis of the Northern Sport Centre it was supposed to generate enough revenue to cover its costs. In actual fact it generates approx $400,000.00 per year and is subsidized to the tune of $600,000.00 per year from UNBC and the City of Prince George.

7. Some to the people who did the analysis of the Northern Sports Centre are now working on the PAC . We can expect a somewhat similiar amount, of tax dollar subsidy.

8. Some of the people pushing for this centre are IPG, and the City of Prince George. This is as much about spending money and giving out contracts as it is about Arts.

9. The City started working behind the scenes to get the PAC Society going, and to get IPG involved a number of years ago. This fits in with their plans for downtown, and to hell with the cost.

10. Part of the problem for the City is that after they started the PAC fiasco, they bid on and were successful in getting the Winter Games in 2015. So they now have an additonal $15 to $20 Million to borrow for the games in additon to the PAC. Add on the $45 Million for the Police Station, the $9 Million for the Community Energy System, etc, etc, and they are getting very close to being maxed out in their borrowing.

11. They are certainly maxed out in regards to taxation, and its time they backed off.

12. The costs to taxpayers for the CN Centre is $600,000.00 per year. Then $300,000.00 for the Northern Sports Centre, and then maybe another $300,000.00 more or less for the PAC, and you begin to see why we cannot afford to do any major infrastructure work.

When you take into consideration the increases in taxes, Municipal, plus the HST, plus increases to Hydro, Garbage, Roads, etc; plus increases to services, including the cost of being buried or burned, one has to be very concerned about anymore needless spending.

13. One way to finance this project, would be **for every dollar spent on the PAC, a corresponding dollar will have to be reduced from the Citys budget. This could be attained by significant reductions in staffing, policing, road repair, water, sewer, recreation, IPG, etc;
If the City is not prepared to get some of this cost from fiscal responsibility, then it shouldnt be building the project.

14.Once we defeat the HST which is nothing more than a dirty rotten tax transfer from business and corporations, to consumers, then we need to give serious consideration to going after the City and have them reign in their spending.

15. The City will never give you a referendum on the PAC because they know full well that it would never pass. They will therefore go their usual BS route and use the alternative approval process, because this works so well for them. Cameron Stolz is on record as stating that the reverse onus petition is a democratic way to go. In actual fact it is a seriously flawed process, that takes away our right to a referendum on big ticket items.

Palopu defeating hst looks easy but it won't be,there will be mail sent out to each bc resident and u have to fill it out and send it back.hmmm there goes 65 percent of bc votes for ousting the hst.lazy people won't care

PGGURU. I agree that there is a chance that people will not get off their butts and ensure that they vote.

It will be absolutely imperative that the Anti HST campaign be revived and that they travel the Province ensuring that they get the vote out. Business and Corporations, and their friendly affiliates will be sure to vote.

If we actually vote to keep this tax we will be the laughing stock of the free world. I can just see the headlines.

***BRITISH COLUMBIA VOTERS VOTE FOR TAX INCREASE***

STORYLINE. The voters of British Columbia just voted themselves a $1.9 billion dollar a year tax increase. In a first for the free world, taxpayers in BC actually voted in favour of this increase. It seems that the Provincial Government was able to convince voters that it was much better for them to pay this tax, than have business and corporations pay their fair share.

Governments around the world are taking a hard look at what happened in BC with the hope that somehow they can convince their citizens to vote for higher taxes.

Don Basserman needs to get sacked in the next election for his role in the PAC. MR Rogers, I hope you enjoyed your single term as mayor.

We will find the money for a new sports field or ice rink...

We have built things in the past which we could not have afforded, but built them anyway. As a result, we have to be more careful now. It is a great example of living unsustainably within our own time, never mind the time of the generation to follow.

Let us take that as a given, at least living under the existing system of cities not allowed to run deficit budgets and having a cap placed on their borrowing limits, in addtion to having limited taxation powers. The main access to taxes is property tax. The assumption is, of course, that everyone using city services lives in town, given that.

So already we have some problems which are different than a province undertaking a four laning Cariboo Connector project, University in PG, a CNC expansion for trades, a Cancer facility, a sports centre. The latter is completely differently funded than an aquatic cente in PG, or a Kin 4 that everyone is screeming four now.

So, that brings me to the point of why is the Kin4 proposal not handled the same way? Used by a bunch of old timers to play hockey. By a few youngsters part of the year because their hockey moms and dads think they are going to hit the big time in the NHL?

To me that is no different than a few dance mom and dads thinking their kid is going to hit the big time in the Stuttgart Ballet some day. In fact, in that case they have a greater chance of actually hiotting their professional goals than the gid skating with a stick.

The difference? The kid that is a dancer goes to a private school because there ois no such community support as there is for the kind that skates with a stick.

So, I am looking for some equity here. Realize that these kids and their parents are all special interest groups. Realize that they should be treated equally. They have their CN Centre for their so called professionals. There is no reason in the world why the arts fartcy people should not have the same type of facility as the sports dorks.

You are bang on Gus!!! Excellent post. It is also all about balance...We can have both sports and arts. To think of arts as elitist is a totally absurd statement.

At a time when we are facing a crumbling infrastructure, increasing taxes to pay for the RCMP building and a special levy to pay for the winter games, we do not need to go further in debt for a PAC.

If you look at the 2009 municipal report on the city's website and look under "Financial Sustainability" the goal for 2010 was "The City will develop an infrastructure deficit funding strategy"

A quote from our mayor from late March "We know the gap certainly exists in the order of $7.5 million (per year)between what we should be investing and what we are investing, "Rogers said " the question is how to fund it."-PG citizen

So the problem was identified 2009 as something that needed to be addressed in 2010 and here we are in the second quarter of 2011 and City Hall is still sitting on their hands. The further we get behind, the more the costs will compound.

The myopic focus on downtown redevelopment has to end. Putting three shiny new baubles in the core will not fix it. The "Think Big" strategy has not worked in the past and will not work now. To keep doing the same things over and over and expecting different results is a sign of insanity. Scale the plans down and get something done.

Until the gets the books in order and we can afford a PAC, the precious little snowflakes will have to attend Judy Russell, the playhouse, vanier, etc.

Until the city gets the books in order and we can afford a PAC, the precious little snowflakes will have to attend Judy Russell, the playhouse, vanier, etc.

We certainly do not need a Kin 4. This issue would not even be up for discussion if the City had not got the Winter Games, and are now in the process of updating Kin 3 to meet games requirements.

The fact that a bunch of old time Hockey players and some other hockey supporters showed up at City Hall trying to pressure the City into building a Kin 4 is BS. The City should have thrown them out. Who the hell do they think they are. This town is full of hockey rinks. Kin 1,2,3, CN Centre, Hart Highway, and Coliseum. How much space do they need.

The problem is these places all sit empty from Monday to Friday during the day because of work and school commitments. So the problem is not about space, it is about available time. Perhaps the Old Timers should put on their long johns and play outside, and quit stealing time from the younger generation.. That would solve our problems and cost very little. We dont need any more hockey rinks.

Insofar as having a PAC for local dancers, while in theory this sounds good, the fact of the matter is, parents have been paying to have their kids attend dance classes and put of performances in the various venues around town for years. Years ago we used the old Civic Centre, then we got Vanier Hall, and then the Playhouse theatre. We now rarely use the new Civic Centre even though it sits empty for most of the year. We have lots of space available for the younger people in this town, so to suggest that a PAC would be built for them is misleading.

The PAC is being built for IPG, the City, and Developers and Contractors. I and a lot of other people have been paying for our children and grand children to attend dancing, music lessons, etc; for years. This costs big money.

We are not the ones complaining about the available facilities. So who is pushing for the PAC? Answer that question and you will see that we dont need a PAC.

You obviously do not know the caliber of talent that exists in this city, lonesome sparrow, or you would not have made such a stupid statement as "the precious little snowflakes will have to attend Judy Russell, the playhouse, vanier, etc."
Wake up!!!

"At a time when we are facing a crumbling infrastructure, increasing taxes to pay for the RCMP building and a special levy to pay for the winter games, we do not need to go further in debt for a PAC."

I could not agree with youy more. But as far as I am concerned, there is a line that formed a long time ago. That line is called the capital projects line. Most recently that line had a number of roads and utility services infrastructure $ associated with it, and continues to do so. It had the proposed police station being followed by the proposed PAC. The PAC was mysteriously taken off. When I asked one of the counillors who is no longer on the city council why that was, he refused to answer.

You see, the city makes plans, but plans change. That is fine. But they shoulod be changed with the knowledge of the people and input from the people. The same argument as that made with the HST as far as I am concerned.

The PAC gets bumped forever. Yet studies are funded. I have to ask myself why. Have have to say that if this city's heart is not in it, then be up front about it. We are being nickled and dimed to death with other special interest group projects. Trail systems, boundary roads, river front roads, bridges that just provide a bit more convenience for industrial sites that are on the move and will be outlasted by the bridge, helping out private golf courses and causing development to continue to sprawl away from downtown.

This city admninistration and the Councillors that are supposed to be setting direction for them are out of control. They actually do not know how to plan, how to mitigate risk, how to invest in infrastructure so that it does not have to be tossed like one would toss a paper coffee cup into the landfill that is overflowing. They can't even affor a recycling program, let alone a Kin4, a PAC, a Boundary Road, a Cameron Street Bridge replacement, a district energy system, a share of operating an enclosed soccer/running track facility at UNBC ....

One frivolous expenditure after another. And let's not even talk about an expansion to the library because, after all, it is the busiest building downtown which does squat to increasing downtown use. And now they want student housing, and an engineering research building donwtown too. As if that is going to turn things around.

Don't worry, the casino will build a convention centre with a substantial performance centre attached that can double as a convention meeting centre in a similar fashion to the convention centre in Victoria attached to the Empress. Add a fly tower and larger stage and green rooms, reasonable loading dock, and we will be there.

Forget about the City and its property owning taxpayers. Let the gamblers and the mall developers pay for it. Put it where it belongs, at the itersection of the two great northern highways where everyone passing through town can see it. Tie it in to the commercial space intended to be developed over time on the Golf course lands and we will have a linear downtown at the new City Centre stretched from the Casino to the Pine Centre.

A building does not make someone a better artist. If the precious little snowflake is truly gifted and driven, they will succeed regardless of the venue.

I agree gus that there is little evidence that the city has a planning department and a long term plan for anything. I am reminded of the CBC show "Madly Off In All Directions." I have been looking through the annual reports on the website and am appalled how many things carry over year after year.

We've had two planes land on the extended runway and Boundary Road and the logistics park are top priority. Someone mentions a new kin4 and the mayor says it would be nice too see it downtown.

As much as I would like to see some new faces in the mayor and council ranks, I think it is as important to change the city manager(to begin with.)

"With the civic elections coming in November, it is a perfect opportunity to put it to the taxpayers if the city should go another $15 million in debt..."

Funny - this notion comes up when a PAC is the subject, but not when sports facilities are the subject.

Interesting that a PAC was an issue talked about during the last election (and many before) but not the Winter Games.

So, where was the elector's voice for the Winter Games? Who had a chance to review business plans and costs and long term advantages of that before we bid? What say did the user groups have?

That's right, none.

Give the supports of the PAC some credit for being completely transparent - in terms of need assessment (Duncan Webb report and many, many user group meetings) to development of a business plan, to development of funding sources and a willingness to take the entire project to the electorate for approval.

The Winter Games needed none of that, yet your tax money is going to support that.

Maybe, if PG had been given a chance, they would have chosen a Library expansion over the Winter Games, or a PAC over a Winter Games, or lower taxes.

But council rammed it down your throat, and now other worthy capital projects (Library, PAC) are likely "out" because the tax threshold is just too high.

Nice work Mayor and Council. The electorate should take back their city this November.

"A building does not make someone a better artist. If the precious little snowflake is truly gifted and driven, they will succeed regardless of the venue."

If you apply that to:

1. a school and a student
2. an indoor hockey rink and a hockey player
3. an indoor ice arena and a figure skater
4. an indoor basketball court and a basketball player
5. an indoor tennnis court and a tennis playeer
6. an indoor long ice oval and a speedskater
7. an indoor footbal field and a football player.

And on and on and on.

The Greeks and the Romans, had exterior arenas, theatres, etc. While the climates were not similar to ours, they were similar to the GVRD, the ISland as well as much of the eastern, western and southern states and many of the countries in Europe.

Yes, they have both indoor and outdoor theatres, football stadiums, etc.

When they do have buildings, the building meet a standard for players, the audience, and the technicians who set up the system and provide all the services required for all. If they do not, they are upgraded. Look at how many stadiums in the world have been built, used, and torn down to be rebuilt to today's standards. The same goes for theatres.

So, no, a building that provides the modern tools needed for artists, students, athletes, etc. do give people the ability to become better at their trade. to say that artists are different than other and do not need proper buidings is quite ignorant of the who interface of the "tool" and the user of the tool and the observers of the artists and athletes who take pleasure in watching those who excell at their craft.

Wayne Gretzky's passion for hockey developed on a backyard rink with Walter.

Many NBA players came out of the inner city playing on paved courts with no nets etc. Similar story for soccer players coming out of South America and Africa playing barefoot on dirt fields.

How many actors and singers perform in small clubs to further their craft and wait tables on the side to support themselves.

If a person has a passion, whether it be in the sports or the arts, they will pursue it regardless of the surroundings. The buildings are more important to those "who take pleasure in watching "

"Wayne Gretzky's passion for hockey developed on a backyard rink with Walter."

Yes, when he was 6 and he would otherwise have had to practice on the community outdoor rink where his father said HE WAS FREEZING WATCHING HIM. So he built an ice surface in the backyard so that he did not have to be outside watching a six year old for the sake of safety.

So that other fathers don't freeze (oh the poor dads and moms) there was more and more demand for indoor rinks. So, based on that theory, indoor rinks exist for lazy, wimpy parents, not for players since they can keep warm by playing. ;-)

Yes, the key word is passion was developed. Skill was not. One cannot develop the competitive skill of today's athletes and performers by using tools not fit for the purpose for which they are designed. That has always been the case, whether today or 1990 or 1950 or 1900 or before. Proper facilities and equipment as well as proper coaches and the money to pay for total dedication time without other worries has kept pushing to reach for yet unachieved heights.

You might have an eye for capturing a good photograph. But unless you have a good camera you will not be able to compete with those people who do have an excellent camera with the accessories necessary for doing the job expected.

You might know how to drive a good race, but unless you have the car that can allow you to apply those driving skills to the ultimate, I am sorry, but you will eventually realize you are wasting your time if you want to win against others who have adequate support.

And, of course, if you are the ice capades, you will come to PG because we have an arena to support them technically as well as provide adequate seating for an audience. If they had to perform at Kin 1, 2, 3, forget it. They would probably even reject the Coliseum these days.

"How many actors and singers perform in small clubs to further their craft and wait tables on the side to support themselves."

Roughly the same number as taxi drivers who have a PhD from a foreign country.

Seeing as how the taxpayers gave the city $150 thousand dollars to give to the PAC folks, I am sure city hall got receipts for that money. PAC supporters did spend it properly didn't they? I will be in touch with city hall to see if I can view these receipts to insure that the PAC people "invested" "OUR" $150 thousand dollars wisely. Hizzoner Danno should have the receipts in the top right hand drawer of his desk. Right, Danno? Grrrrr!!.