Lheidli T'enneh Agreement Includes City Land

Wednesday, May 10, 2006 10:00 PM

Richard Krehbiel, Mayor Colin Kinsley and Mark Stevenson look at a map of Harper Valley property

The land portion of the Lheidli T'enneh treaty negotiations now includes hundreds of hectares within the City of Prince George. The property involves Crown lands within the city, including

Vista Parcel, 112 hectares next to the Shelley reserve

Harper Valley, 167 hectares that sits between North Nechako road, and the North Weigh scales on Highway 97

Cranbrook Hill 664 hectares next to the UNBC reserved lands. The Cranbrook Greenbelt is not part of the package.

In all, the land portion of the deal involves 4360 hectares made up federal and provincial crown lands, and existing Indian reserves. After a treaty is signed, Lheidl T'enneh will own their lands in fee simple and there will be no more Indian Reserves.

The lands portion is a done deal, Trevor Proverbs of the Ministry of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation says the lands have been set aside, and will remain protected for the Lheidli T'enneh until a treaty is finally signed.

So, there are some properties within Prince George which may be in limbo as far as beetle kill clean up is concerned. Case in point the Harper Valley block. The stretch along North Nechako Road shows serious mountain pine beetle kill. Who cuts the timber? The land is set aside, it is not part of the community forest license which the City is attempting to secure, and if there is a need to cut the trees in the name of fire protection, who has the right to cut? Who benefits from the timber? There is also a question of a possible change in the value of the land if the timber is cut before it is handed over.

The Treaty will also give the Lheidli T'enneh self governance, participation on the board of the Regional District of Fraser Fort George on an equal basis with municipal governments, and will allow for the Lheidli T'enneh to enter into sevice agreements with local governments. To that end, the City and Regional District are already working with the Lheidli T'enneh on a Master Agreement for the harmonization of several responsibilities, including, bylaws, land use planning, law enforcement, collection and enforcement of property taxes, delivery of services and the development of a formula to resolve disputes. City Manager George Paul says the process is a positive one, as it gives the City certainty at a time when it is trying to attract new industry and diversify its economy.

The financial portion of the package would see the Federal Government deliver $12.8 million dollars, minus any monies loaned to the Lheidli T'enneh for the course of the negotiations. Those costs are currently in the $4-$5 million range.

Lheidli T'enneh negotiator Mark Stevenson says there are still two big issues that need to be resolved before the Treaty can go forward. One calls for lands to be removed from the Agricultural Land Reserve, the other involves the federal government's share of taxation. Taxation will be phased in over a period of a dozen years, and when those taxes are collected, the Lheidli T'enneh want to ensure they get a fair share back in the form of transfer payments.

According to Stevenson, the Lheidli T'enneh haven't yet developed any land use plans, and at this point, he believes the cash component will be held in trust and the income from that trust administered by a Board.

The Agreement in Principle outlines the other major components of the treaty, including rights to resources such as wildlife and fish, timber and sub-surface minerals, culture and related self-government provisions. You can read the complete AIP here

Stevenson says it could be at least another year to two years before the agreement is finalized as it needs to be fine tuned, then ratified by the Lheidli T'enneh, then passed in the Provincial Legislature, and the House of Commons. All in all, Stevenson is pleased "In spite of all the criticisms, it is a reasonably balanced agreement."

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Posted on Wednesday, May 10, 2006 10:00 PM in News by 250 News

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Comments

Posted by: YamaDooPolCat on May 11 2006 7:12 AM

Really? I doubt a finalized agreement will ever be signed off. The dynamics are backwards.

It's kind of like letting the baby decide when the udder will dry up. Usually it's the mother that weans the kid off the teat, not the other way around.

Posted by: owl on May 11 2006 9:47 AM

The question then becomes who is the mother and who is the child that has to be weaned.

Remember that it is the First Nations who had the land and the resources. A bunch of people came along and took it from them and set up a social system whose commerce was quite different from theirs, put them on reserves, and paid them a pittance to stay there and shut up so that those who valued land and resources in a different way could go about their business. Nice business deal if you can get it and the First Nations were innocent enough to comply. In our legal system a contract made with a minor is not a contract. Or, if there is not a meeting of the minds, there is also no contract. The settlers and the indigenous people had two completely different understandings of what was happening, thus no agreement.

With lawyers involved today on both sides, that argument will no longer hold water.

The First Nations would not be getting a cent or a square metre of land if the courts would not think that the compensation was due to them based on historical evidence. Just think, not much more that 100 years ago in this region these things were not an issue. There were no reserves in this area.

So, one could also view the analogy in a way that the natives represents the mother, that the child voraciously sucked at the teat until the gland was becoming quite useless and the mother was growing thinner and weaker by the day from the amount of excess suckling which was going on.

I also think it will take people some time to understand the meaning of the word reconciliation which is not all that prominently displayed in the name of the provincial Minsitry responsible.

Just remember, the money still stays in Canada, it will just circulate a little bit differently. Even more of it will come to this region from the feds and the province.

Did anyone catch the fact that the Band will have a seat on the RDFFG? If they would have done that when local governments in this region were first created, provided more than beads and a Catholic upbringing, then things would have been a bit different I would think.

Posted by: Chadermando on May 11 2006 5:50 PM

The city did a poor job of informing the public on its negotiations. I have no problem with an allocation of land to native individuals as a fair compensation for grandfathered rights to a piece of land.

That said I also feel it is still a racist policy against those who also have lineage going back hundreds of years in this country, but are not afforded the same generosity and rights by our government.

My concern with this deal is the UNBC lands. The land behind UNBC should be preserved as Forest For the World and not allocated to an NGO. Furthermore the prime location for future development in Prince George is the area to the South East of UNBC along University Way, and I question the appropriateness of allocating this land to future development disputes therefore ensuring it never reaches its full potential as the center of PG's biggest past success, and hindering all future potential.

IMO that UNBC location could one day be the center of PG and the location for a rejuvenated city overlooking the city. To give it away seems highly irresponsible to future generation. I would not be surprised if the DTBIA had a voice in on that handicapping any potential for competition and undercutting future benefits to this city once again.

Posted by: Palopu on May 11 2006 8:03 PM

The land in question has not been in any kind of use for the past thousands of years, except for Wildlife. Any suggestion that this land would be developed over the next 100 or so years is drivel. The First Nations may develop it to some degree, however over the long term, once it is logged off it will remain much the same as the clear cuts that spot this Province. That is, no further activity until the trees regrow, which will take 80 to 100 years. Probably in 100 years time we will no longer use wood for anything, and it will have no value except for wildlife. Go to any of the Clear Cuts that have been replanted in the last 10 or 15 years and you will see no sign of humans. Once we take out the timber and minerals, we leave.

Returning this land to the First Nations and getting some treatys signed is part of a long term plan by the Government to get a peaceful resolve to a Major Problem. Once the First Nations have the land the Private Lumber Co.s and Mining Co.s will move in and create Joint Ventures to exploit the resources.

There is no growth projected for the Central Interior for the next 10-20 years and probably none after that so I suggest to Chandermando that you are already in the centre of the City of Prince George.

The world needs dreamers, however a reality check once in a while would bring some of you closer to Earth.

Some forecasts by City Representatives, Newspaper Stories, and Citizens in the past 20 years.

(1) A Mono rail line from Prince George to Alaska through the Rocky Mountain trench. This was to be built by the great Wenner Gren (Finiancer) Announced in the early 60's. Result was 12 miles of rail laid North of Summit Lake in the bush.

(2) A huge steel mill to be located in the Hart Hiway area North of Prince George. Result (nothing)

(3) A huge packing plant to be located in the Vanderhoof area. 100,000 head of cattle and 250,000 pigs to be processed each year. Result (Nothing)

(4) A Pulp Mill to be located in Vanderhoof a joint Venture with Alcan. Result (Nothing)

(5) City planners announced in 1968 that the population of Prince George by the year 2000 would be 200,000 people. Population at that time was approx 60,000. Population to-day 75,000. This is a major miscalculation by the City Planners and they do not like to talk about it. 15000 increase over 35 years can hardly be called growth.

Some of the announcements being made now are being projected as good possibilities, however they are based on nothing but wishful thinking.

(1) Great oil reserves in the Nechako Basin. (As if the Oil Companys wouldnt be here years ago if their was any oil worth extracting.

(2) Huge container terminal in Prince George to create numerous jobs. If it happens it will be a relocation of jobs with very few new ones.

(3) Huge Airport Expansion. Highly unlikely and even if it did happen it would create very few jobs.

(4) Port of Prince Rupert. Very few people are aware that once this Container Terminal is built it will employ approx 80 to 100 people to run it. A good boost for the City of Prince Rupert but no where near enough to replace the 300 jobs that were lost when the Pulp Mill Closed.

There is Major downsizing to come in this area in the next 10 years.

Sears has downsized there parts department and we have lost 9 jobs.

Veekens have sold their egg quota to a Vancouver Co., and the Plant here will be closing with a significant loss of jobs.

The long term suggestion is that Canfor wll have two Super Mills in the Area 1 in Houston and 1 in Vanderhoof. If this is true then you will have closures at Bear Lake, Clear Lake, Isle Pierre, Prince George. This will have a huge impact on the Area.

The list goes on. All I am trying to do here is get some people to realize that things are not all coming up roses, and you cannot get an area to grow and expand by wishful thinking. We need much more than that.

Posted by: owl on May 12 2006 1:44 AM

Palopu .... Where did you get the idea that anyone posting to this topic is saying that there will be major development of the land in this region over the next 100 years? The only time 100 years was mentioned was in the context of the PAST 100 years.

I think you may have a one track mind. Your guess as to what is going to happen in the next one hundred years around here is as good as anyone's here or wherever. It is one of those questions which is similar to determining how many angels one can get on the head of a pin. Fun to discuss, but other than that kind of useless. A drunk on the street could be just as right as a PhD with post doctoral studies.

As far as past proposals go, you forgot about the one which would have seen a dam built on the Fraser which would have flooded the bowl some of us live in. The power was going to be sold south of the border, of course. Might still be the thing to do. That would then pick up on Chadermando's idea of building a new town centre along the crest of Cranbrook Hill. It would mean that we would be loacted on a lake, just like Kelowna. Couple that with the projection being made by climatologists in Victoria that in 50 to 70 years time this will be prime wine country and this will be the place our grandchildren will want to retire to.

As far as the past projections of populations go, I am quite aware of that. You do have it wrong however. City planners would have no problem talking about it since there was no city planning department at the time and all the planning was done by a consultant for some 25 or so years. CIPC were actually just following the thinking of the day - called "best industry practices" which are always only best for that time, no matter what the vocation. Writing History is relatively easy, although it is amazing how many people get even that totally screwed up.

The same plannin firm also had tons of plans drawn up of the new city centre along Cranboook Hill, including the University and the arterials going up the hill as 5th does.

Today's "best industry practice" no longer talk about time spans, it talks about threshold populations. Other than that, nothing has changed.

I do know one thing, Canada is underpopulated compared to the rest of the world; the population in the world will likely expand for another 30 or 40 years; pressure will continue from other denser parts of the world to "colonize" Canada and other similar low density countries with vast resources. In addition, Canada continues to promote policies which not only welcomes new comers, but its demographics are such that if the country does not do it, it will no longer be able to afford the existing standard of living. It will become a have-not country until the majority of baby boomers die off. We cannot continue to rely on oil. In fact, I would not be surprised if the oil sands project will never mine its entire reserves due to tech advances in the use of alternative energy sources in the next 20 to 30 years.

I think there is a saying about the best laid plans of mice and men ...... yet we continue to plan .... planning is fun ... and if things do not work out the way they are planned, planners are the last ones to be surprised because they know predicting the future is virtually impossible.

Now politicians, that is another matter all together. They know exactly what is going to happen and if it doesn't, it is not their fault ... and if something happens that they were not expecting, and it is positive, it is all because of their forsight.

;-)

Posted by: owl on May 12 2006 1:47 AM

I guess that would be 15th which goes up the hill ... *smile* ... 5th is yet to be built .....

;-)

Posted by: Palopu on May 12 2006 7:52 AM

Owl. Its not a question of having a one track mind. My main beef is that certain elements of this (and other) Citys make growth projections etc not based on any kind of reality, and this information is posted in Newspapers etc. quite often the end result is that people beleive this and make decisions based on this faulty information. They then buy houses and get mortages with the idea that there will be long term employment. You are no doubt fully aware what happened in the early eighties when interest rates went through the roof (19%) and hundreds if not thousands of people lost their homes because they could not make their payments. We are now in my opinion slowly moving into the same situation. Interest rates are starting to rise. People on limited incomes have bought into homes with little or no down payments, and as the mortgate rates go up they will be unable to pay for these houses. Mortage companys have protected themselves by ensuring that the mortage in insured against non-payment, however people will still lose their houses. I hope I am wrong, however people make decisions based on the available information, and if all the information they are getting is hype, from real estate agents, politicians, planning departments, Local Papers, etc,then they beleive that things are going to continue.

You know that in order to make a good decision you need good information. Where to you suggest that they get it.????

Posted by: owl on May 12 2006 11:42 AM

Palopu...I think the phenomenon we are seeing is the result of pent up expectations that the penomenal growth of the sixties and seventies will surely return.

Well, many people have been waiting since the 1981 crash for just that. The annoucnements by the Mayor that building 200 or 300 housing usits a year is virtually unprecedented means that he has either forgotten the days of consisten housing starts above the 1,000 mark when the metro area was 2/3rds the size.

What few people understood are the dynamics of that. Major industry coming into town, primary employment increases in the 2,000 to 3,000 range plus the spin offs which result. All coupled with a low population base. Result: high percentage increases and apparent out of this world growth.

Not sustainable, however, since the wealth generating industry which was the driver had a limit. Since then, productivity in the industry has increased greatly, resulting in larger volumes of product being pumped out with fewer people. Luckily we managed to secure a University and a few call centres to offset the job losses, allowing the City to maintain a relatively stable population base for about 20 years. No growth, until a recent blip brough on by a freak of nature and the search for untapped resources as the resource market in the world has taken an upswing for the time being.

Prince George is not Edmonton. We are not the Capital of the Province. We are not even the Captial of Northern BC. And I do not think anyone is about to move Victoria to PG, although I think there would be some very good reasons to do that very thing.

The cost of property has risen tremendously in this city, even though we have tons of it. 1977 we bought an oversized piece at City auction for jut under $10,000. The lots at the end of Malaspina are priced at $75,000+ Property used to be about 20% of the cost of a developed house. In that area, for the lower priced houses, the property will be mnore like 35% of the cost of the house. Why? because of phased growth, which makes a lot of sense. Roads get built as they are needed, as do other services. So there should be a saving. Factor that in, and the prices of property have gone up even more.

I would not include planning departments in your list of people saying things are going to go through the roof here. Planners are quite conservative people. They will identify the risks of building infrastructure or not building infrastructure. It is Council that makes the decisions based on recommendations.

Talk to a single planner in the planning department, and you will see he/she will typically be quite an objective person.

Posted by: Chadermando on May 12 2006 2:01 PM

Ostrich the Grouch sure likes to pooh Palopu any forward thinking ideas. I think he is totally wrong on most issues and is stuck to much in a time warp from the past. It seems to be an epidemic in this town which is about 90% of the reason this town has not grown in 30+ years.

Anybody with a vision quickly realizes there is no vision in PG and most of the establishment is in the mode to protect there turf and not thinking to grow the turf raising all ships in the process. Council�s decision to put the run on RV owners was a prime example. We could talk city zoning, crown land use planning, and infrastructure planning as three of the prime failures of the last generation inherited by today�s up and coming generation. I could go into examples especially in the crown land use planning, but have limited time.

Posted by: Palopu on May 12 2006 5:51 PM

Chadermando. You still cant smell the roses. With the exception of Government Workers/Municipal/Regional/Provincial/Federal. Other industries in and around Prince George have downsized considerably. This includes, RAilways, Sawmills, Pulp Mills etc; A number of smaller lumber mills have closed down completly. Add to this the reductions in wages of approx 60% for most employees in the retail industry and you have a serious income problem. Every Major retailer, and Grocery Chain, in Prince George restricts their employees to 20 hours per week and pays somewhere in the area of 8 to 10 dollars per hour. Dont expect to much purchasing power from that kind of a wage. A lot of these people hold 2 or more jobs so that they can get 40 hours a week, however at their rate of pay they still do not make much money.

Most of these people cannot afford all the luxuries that the Baby Boomers, and High Paid Government employees, and Unionized Employees are used to. As a result there is less money to spend in the City.

If you were making 8 dollars an hour on 20 hours per week, or 40 hours per week tell me what recreation you would spend your money on.

Average cost of Golf Game on a regulation course is $40.00 per game. For a couple, for one game and no food this would be $80.00 (A full days wage)_

Going to a theatre costs almost as much.

Hockey Games or going to see Charlie Pride almost as much

Young people have very little disposable income, with no real opportunitys in the near future to make more money, unless they leave and go to work in Grande Prairie, Calgary, Edmonton, or Northern BC and Alberta.

These young people are now making up a major portion of the working people in Prince George, however with limited income, they cannot support the spin off jobs that High Paid baby boomers could to in the old days, as a result other business that depends on this income are in peril.
A case in point is the Prince George Golf Course. The average age of members at this facility in 55 years. This should speak volumes as to whats happening in this City. People who are on limited incomes cannot afford to join a Golf Club for $1200.00 per year plus purchase a $1500.00 interest free debenture.

There are numerous other ways that this City is being impacted by low wage jobs and the effect will be felt in the not to distant future.

The high paid jobs, with expense accounts, 4 weeks holidays, ATO, 7 3/4 hour day, etc; are fast coming to a close.

In the end we will reap what we have sown.

Posted by: Chadermando on May 12 2006 7:16 PM

Well Palopu, how can I argue with that. Geez just when I thought I had you pegged you come out and make some sense. I will not argue with those points at all. Its called globalization, by and for multinational elites. My generation will not see the good times of past generations. We have 5 maybe 10 years at best of the good times before the house of cards collapses taking away our economy, dignity, and democracy with it.

That said I am not a defeatist like yourself. I like to say to hell with the rest of the world, the rest of Canada, and the rest of BC for that matter when it comes to our future. I'll be the first to say that we will only have a future in the north if its based on grass roots activism that rejuvenates our political situation and starts to utilize our strengths in the fight against the enclosing slavery of the multinational world we now live in. That's what makes web sites like this such a great thing (flaws and all).

My opinion is that we can achieve anything we can dream of if we have the courage and the vision to make it happen. Problem is that too many people like yourself have bought into the propaganda machine that tells us we have no future, our city stinks because of BBQ's, PG has no future, were a one industry town, and the pine beetle is coming to take our second child ect ect....

Why did it take 50 years to realize the only way you get secondary manufacturing in the North is if we have a Northern container port that puts us on the super highway to global trade? Its because nobody had the vision nor courage to state the obvious. If our government was truly our government, then why does Alcan continue to use our watersheds as their printing press for US dollars; or why do the forest companies now control the future of our forest to the extent that it is now a near monopoly business; or why did we allow a refinery to be located less then a kilometer from the downtown of the largest city in the north; or why did CN get to use insider information to acquire an essential piece of public infrastructure; or why was all the prime river frontage in the city of PG sold off to private land holders who now restrict all access to the greatest thing PG has to offer, or why is the future of our city compromised by the interest of a few landholders in the downtown core?

In one simple answer it is because of greed trumping over forward looking visions that would move this city forward and take it to the next level for everyone that lives here. Greed from politicians with hidden agenda's; greed from established land owners using politicians to legislate their success; greed from foreign investors who wish to rape our land for every dime they can get; greed from people who wish to make their dollars on someone else�s back at someone else�s expense; greed from people who think they are special and their concerns trump all others; and worst of all greed from bureaucrats who feel the privilege of determining our future with a disdain for the democratic process.

These things can all be dealt with, but it takes courage and vision, and most importantly it takes a political system that respects all stakeholders in society and not just the dollar. It also takes citizens that vote based on issues, not because of flashy political campaigns or simply because they feel they have to vote so they vote for the name they recognize the most.
The failures of the past were not due to the visions of our past dreamers, but rather because the failure of our politicians to realize those dreams.

Posted by: owl on May 12 2006 10:52 PM

Good discussion. Are we off topic yet?
;-)

Posted by: Palopu on May 13 2006 5:03 PM

Why indeed. I certainly agree with a lot of what you say Chandermando, however you have merely pointed out what I have been alluding to all along. I dont have the answers to a lot of these questions, however I also do not have faith in the present regime to do anything about it. You seem to be confused between a defeatist, and a realist. I am the latter. I have no faith in the people of this area doing anything on their own except watch the different levels of Government spend their money on various and sundry projects. There are a lot of defeatists in this City, however I am not one of them.