Ask these young ruffians if they went to daycare when they were young. If they did, blame the day care lady for these problems. What's the big idea not raising other peoples kids right? If they didn't go to daycare and had a stay at home mom blame her. If they had two parents who had to hold down a job each to pay all their taxes blame the current Prime Minister. Not past Prime Ministers. Just the current one. Blame the community for not having the money for the facilities to entertain these kids. Blame,blame, blame. Blame everyone but these children. I think they might be old enough to know right from wrong, but it is not their fault. It is societys fault. Sentence them to that good ol' standby "open custody" and counsel them til their eyes roll out of their heads. Like the bumper sticker says, "No fear". It should read, "No fear while you are still young and stupid".

Great opportunity to set an example of how we should be treating these vandals. Let's put them to work for the good of the community for the next year to work off 7 times the cost of the damage they are responsible for. About $35,000 in my estimations, or $17,500 each.

No debts should go unpaid, especially by those who created them. Chester

We observed a teenage male "ruffian" at the Pine Centre Food Court put his feet in dirty boots right on top of the table next to the fireplace while slouching in a leather chair!

He and his friend stayed there for a good half hour while cleaning staff studiously avoided dealing with the issue - probably afraid of getting assaulted if they would have pointed out to the moron that tables are for placing food on, not boots.

Nobody knows how to deal with these misfits without running afoul of the law.

Disgusting and sad.

Some Businesses do know how to deal with these Fools Were I work these fools are thrown out like the trash they are. By neck or arm and physically removed. Maybe some Owners and Security should get some Balls. The Courts and Police have no Interest in handing the fools, The fools have No fear of the Courts or Police....So they must be taught to fear us the law abiding taxpayer Citizen. Never put up with morons

It does my heart good to see Harbingers response. I understand it was written in sarcasm but he/she has grasped the nature of the problems we face. Only one with a passion for the topic could write such a succinct analysis of what I and acreditied experts have been saying. I know that this sacrastic tone was ment to annoy but in reality it shows me there is a basic understanding of the societal problems we face. I congratulate you and take satisfaction in the knowledge that when the event that changes his or her heart happens, they will have the wisdom to see the truth. Try to not think of these things as blaming as no one wins the blame game. Think more of the opportunities available to change the way society thinks to create a better world. Think constructive critisism and your concept of blame can be revealed to be the erronious assumption you have incorrectly labeled. Happy New Years Harbinger, this year could be the one to see great personal growth in your life.

Nice to see Don back as himself.

;-)

"Nobody knows how to deal with these misfits without running afoul of the law."

Call security. Cleaning staff are likely not taught how to handle such situations.

However, putting dirty shoes on a table is not a matter of damaging anything as is the case with the school B&E. It is a matter of manners. If one wanted to use an excuse one could even use Foodsafe as the scapegoat. The health department does not allow dogs in eating establishments. I am sure that they must have some regulation about dirty shoes on restaurant tables.

Truthfully, however, we know that there are just as many, if not more, germs left on a table if someone uses their napkin to wipe mouth, blow nose, etc. leaves it on the table and even inadvertently smears it so that if it is not properly disposed of and the table surface not properly cleaned up one is left with putting their donut or hot dog or pizza slice right into it.

So, what are we trying to promote and for what purpose?

cleanliness? .... then we ought to deal with a few other issues as well in public places which will hit many more people.

manners? ... then lets also get rid of those who expose their cracks as they bend over ... we have far too many plumbers these days ... ;-)

I want some of what realist is smoking...
;-)

As for the young offenders, they were probably high on crack or meth. They obviously weren't concerned about getting caught, and they weren't there to steal. So, if you solved THAT problem (the hard drugs), the rest of the problems probably would work themselves out. It is not a matter of fault, but let's fix it just the same.
They must also be held accountable and make reparation. Nobody gets a housewrecking party for free. You play, you pay. Don't like the idea of paying ? Then don't play with that sh!t.

I think Chester is on the right track. If parents can't do it, then the community must.

At that age, restitution and rehabilitation done in a way which will hopefully teach them to think about such actions in a different way would be an appropriate response.

I am not familiar enough with the system to know what resources we have in the community to deal with these things in such ways. I assume, however, that by the time people get to the level of B&E and vandalism, many other indicators have been ingored or responses to those mishandled.

I wonder what the success rate is? I wonder how many cases there are of early signs which only people in the immediate circles would be aware of and which have been actively and successfully responded to?

Anyone out there with some data on that? It would be nice to know some of the stats on "near misses" rather than incidents which come to the public's eye.

While drugs should not be excluded as a possible contributor, there is nothing new about vandalism or B&E. They obviously did not need the equipment to fence it for drugs, for instance.

People do not have to be high on drugs or alcohol to do idiotic things. It might help those who are otherwise meek nerds.

Worth a read as a backgrounder for those who do not undertstand reasons for school vandalsim.

http://www.asbj.com/2002/07/0702research.html

http://www.crimereduction.gov.uk/schoolwork03.htm

"Those who vandalize or break into schools are typically young and male, acting in small groups. Vandalism and break-ins are most common among junior high school students (roughly 12-15 years-old), and become less frequent as students reach high school. .... Many vandals have done poorly academically and may have been truant, suspended, or expelled. As is typical of many adolescents, students who vandalize and break into schools have a poor understanding of their behaviour's impact on others ..... "

"The typical observer may think school vandalism and break-ins are pointless, particularly when the offenders have focussed on property destruction and have taken nothing of value. One can better understand the behaviour when considering it in the context of adolescence when peer influence is a powerful motivator. Most delinquent acts are carried out by groups of youths and vandalism is no exception. Participating in vandalism often helps to maintain or enhance his or her status among peers. This status comes with little risk since, in contrast to playing a game or fighting, there are no winners or losers."

OWL, I merely suggested (from my 12 years experience) that they likely were. I can predict that with 85% accuracy, because it is the case 85% of the time (drugs or booze involved). The same goes for adults, too.

If you don't feel that it the case, you're entitled to that belief. But I do remember you saying you don't have much experience, and I believe that.

For those who think that school vandalism is a recent phenomenon:

http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0034-6543%28198422%2954%3A2%3C263%3ATIOISV%3E2.0.CO%3B2-1&size=LARGE

The report is written in 1984 with data from 1977 ...

So ... a 15 year old in 1977 could have a parent who was then 35 to 40 or so. Thus likely born prior top the second world war, and in his or her late 60's or early 70's now.

That means that most here fall into an age group which went through school vandalism with our kids or even ourselves whether 30+ years ago or 5 years ago.

Drugs are not the cause. Drugs, if involved, are a symptom. The root cause is quite different and I suspect relatively consistent from one generation to the next.

I often understate my experience. :-)

...and it IS good to see Don back as himself, even if I do totally and utterly disagree with him.
:-)

He hasn't been sued yet, obviously!

Owl:"However, putting dirty shoes on a table is not a matter of damaging anything as is the case with the school B&E...one wanted to use an excuse one could even use Foodsafe as the scapegoat. The health department does not allow dogs in eating establishments. I am sure that they must have some regulation about dirty shoes on restaurant tables."

Dogs are not allowed in eating establishments - and boots with dog sh*t should not be allowed on table surfaces which may not get disinfected properly before the next customers sits down to eat.

I remember the Mama Panda Restaurant episode when people were puking for days and had to book off sick because of an incident of poor sanitation.

The whole blame for the brutish behaviour of some ruffians must be put on society, of course. Where else could it belong?

If there is anything that Don and I would ever agree on it's this:

If Don and myself were both standing there at the time, one thing you can be sure of is that one way or another, those feet are going to hit the floor, however it has to happen, nice way or Don's way.

>:-)

...and furthermore, Don's right when he says Never put up with morons.

The only reason you're putting up with it, is because you're putting up with it.

>"As for the young offenders, they were probably high on crack or meth."<

Probably. But, isn't it curious that no matter how high they are on something they are usually smashing property that is NOT their own or their parents?!

Wonder if anybody has noticed that, or if anybody has a logical explanation for why it is that they seem to be quite aware of whose property they are laying waste to?

And I expect the staff at the Pine Centre Food Court to call security and not depend on one of the hundreds of customers to do it for them.

It is sometimes good to get a perspective from those who live in "greener pastures".

Excerpt's from Don Baird's column in today's Calgary Herald (Jan 2, 2007)

-------

Shining a light on city’s shames and successes

…. Yes, we’re booming, going more upscale every day, remaking the city in ways that will make Calgary hard to recognize a decade hence.

And yet the city centre remains a pathetic social cesspool where thousands of desperate lives run their courses in appalling conditions.

Fifty per cent of Calgary’s crimes against people are committed in the downtown, most of those in the East Village..

The greatest number of those crimes — muggings, knifings, occasional stuporous murders — are committed by addicted and mentally ill street people against other street people. How the rest of us confront this is truly a challenge to the soul.

Do we turn away and harden? It’s very easy to do. Everyone is sick of the begging, no matter how much we pity the beggars. Other people’s suffering and poverty can be damned annoying in the middle of a busy day.

After handing out loonies for years, I’ve decided to stop giving cash to fuel addiction. But each time I’m hit up, I bank $5 for one of my favourite causes, the Calgary Counselling Centre.

At city hall, the issue is both social and economic. Big companies complain of dangerous streets around their buildings. Why should we put up with this, the CEOs ask, when we pay more than 40 per cent of the city’s business tax?

Now Mayor Dave Bronconnier is enlisting those very CEOs, as well as spiritual leaders, heads of charities and many others, to find “holistic” solutions to the problems downtown.

“We have to get together as a society to solve this,” the mayor says. “It’s not just a local government issue — it’s a collective issue for all of us. Having 3,436 homeless people on the street in Calgary is not the kind of prosperity I believe in.”

…… Calgary has plenty of other challenges, but they’re mostly under control.

…… But the downtown social problems aren’t solved. In fact, they keep getting worse. No answer is in sight despite the city’s efforts, the hard work of agencies and the generosity of many Calgarians.

The truth is that Calgary has not found ways to reconcile misery with money, development with decline, suffering with success. That’s what we must do in 2007, because this isn’t just another civic problem — it’s a challenge to the very soul of a city.

BTW .... 3,436 homeless people on the street in a city that just hit the 1 million mark is the same as having about 250 on the streets in PG ......

Sorry .... that should read "Don Braid" ...

Owl, I read your "Perspective from Greener Pastures" contribution, but in 100 words or less what exactly does it have to do with the topic of young offenders (not necessarily poor or dope addicted!) breaking into a school (which is NOT located downtown!) and going on a rampage smashing public property?

I truly believe the only deterrent for this kind of senseless vandalism is punishment. When they are caught red handed like that then there is no doubt who is to blame. Community service, house arrest, counselling, support and understanding are not effective deterrents to them doing it again. If, however, you do something a little more drastic, it would probably register in their tiny little minds as something they may wish to avoid. How about binding them in stocks, installed at the front entrance of the school for a few days? I like it. It would not take long for word to spread, soon everyone would know who was responsible for the damage. They might even begin to feel ashamed of their actions. I bet such a spectacle would make other would be vandals think twice before they committed such crimes. My point is, there is no real punishment for this or many other types of offences, ergo, there is no deterrent. All we have is a whole lot of expense to run them through the system, often repeatedly. We have to publicly shame these twits preferably in the presence of their peers to make an impression on their poor underpriviliged little minds. You know, we might even be doing them a favour, sparing them from a life of crime, perhaps. We have become far too liberal, that is why these persons more or less get away with these crimes, and don't get me started on the topic of street drugs. Gotta stop, too much to say, too little time. Metalman.

Personal growth in my life? Ya right!! Just getting older, deeper in debt and with that, more cynicism. Got lots of opinions, but being a nobody with no credentials, I can see my options limited. Oh, well. I eat good and sleep good. I'm doing OK. Happy New Year, y'all.

"Posted by: Don Mackenzie on January 1 2007 12:05 PM
Some Businesses do know how to deal with these Fools Were I work these fools are thrown out like the trash they are. By neck or arm and physically removed. Maybe some Owners and Security should get some Balls. The Courts and Police have no Interest in handing the fools, The fools have No fear of the Courts or Police....So they must be taught to fear us the law abiding taxpayer Citizen. Never put up with morons"

Wow don, what happened to all your posts about cops being the greatest thing since sliced bread, and they are the first people to call if anything bad happens?

And having seen you don, you are about as intimidating as an 88 year old grandmother.
But glad to hear you are finally at least thinking of standing up to thugs, not just dialing 911 for every little thing.
Happy New Year to you and all the bus station staff.

Thanks Marty, have a Happy New Year, I Must have scared you as you never Insulted me to my face, But I am sure you are only Brave sitting behind a Computer, Come down Insult me to my face, You the Computer Geek, a person I not sure (Male Female) Just a person who is afraid to use his,her real name or tell us where he,she works . And I do respect the Police, They do not care because the Courts do not. SO Sex and Travel Marty. Hope to see you soon.....Love Don

Diplomat ....

About ss much as people putting their feet up on the table at Pine Centre Food court ...

;-)

Owl: Yes, there is a direct connection: The first comment referred to those young misfits who broke into the school as "ruffians."

My comment about the Pine Centre Food Court incident is in line with that original comment: To be a "ruffian" means to have social/mental maladjustment problems - just like the "ruffian" who blatantly parked his dirty boots on a restaurant table that is there for different purpose.

BTW: I don't buy into the blame game either - blaming everything on society (i.e. us) for all the anti social (often criminal) acts these poor "children" are continuing to perpetrate.

Too bad Don doesn't work there!!!

:-)

To (sort of) paraphrase Harbinger: '16 tons, whattaya get? another year older and deeper in debt' I hear you Harbinger, as a fellow nobody, with plenty of opinions. Keep your nose to the grindstone, make sure the gov't gets more than half of every dollar you earn, the energy co's get a significant chunk of the remainder, and don't forget the insurance companies, holy lightening still got a couple of shekels for discretionary spending. That's CANADA. Still, probably one of the best countries in the world in which to live. If we can solve some of the problems as mentioned above, we can make it even better. Don and Marty, you should be on the same side, fighting for the common good. JUST AN OPINION. metalman.

I am surely confident in this day and age the government will come up with a law called the "old offenders act". After all, the Charter of Rights says every one is equal. Why not old people?

ruffians .... make the best soldiers ....

all in the way one looks at it ...

these guys are proud to be ruffians ....

[url]http://www.silentlywedefend.com[url]

I am sorry ... but I hardly would classify someone who puts their feet on a table as a ruffian .....

However, if people were afraid to approach them .. well, then they may have looked like they were prepared to take anyone on, or those who did the observation and did nothing about it are simply a bunch of whimps .... lotta talk, no action ..

;-)

did they look anything like these guys? .. the born ruffians?

http://www.wavelengthtoronto.com/graphics/feb-2006/born-ruffians-web.jpg

just trying to get a mental image of these "ruffians" ..... maybe take a camera the next time ...

;-)

Owl:"...did they look anything like these guys? .. the born ruffians?"

Somewhat younger, I would say. Don't know if others were afraid to approach them, but I simply didn't think it was worth the risk to try to correct bad parenting and perhaps end up with a knife in the only body I have.

They certainly didn't look poor or clothed in rags and ignored by a non-caring society, in fact they looked well-dressed and well-fed, perhaps upper middle class.

Next time it happens I will move to an area of the Pine Centre Food Court where crude pr!*ks like that are out of my sight.

>"I am sorry ... but I hardly would classify someone who puts their feet on a table as a ruffian ....."<

Call them whatever you like.

Gee don sorry i never jumped out of line to run over and introduce myself.
Next time i am in the bus station if i see you i will say hi.
I am generally there every week or two getting a parcel anyways.
And "Marty" is my real name, just an FYI .........

PS. is the title written on the side of your truck any indication of your driving? lol

No Marty....Airborne...on the side of the truck is the unit I belonged to for 25 years, Before the Internet, I was a member of the Cdn Airborne Regiment, the Truck was a gift from my friends and my wife. Yes Marty I do have friends, and I bet if we ever talked you might even like me, so do not be nervous come and talk next time, I AM ONLY A FRIEND YOU HAVE NEVER MET.

diplomat ... I am not usually intimidated due to my size.

I have been known to take action every now and then. One of the times I would equate to the feet on the table incident you describe was when I was waiting to turn left from central onto 15th. The driver in the car in front of me threw out a fast food bag with what must have been the other garbage from the meal in it. I got out of the car, approached him and told him that that he was not a good citizen.

He was a non-descript individual likely in this 30's. Did he care? Nope. Was he a ruffian? No. Should I have taken down the license plate number and reported him to whom? Should I have made him pick up the garbage? Hardley. He does not have to obey some idiot who seems to care about garbage in the streets.

So, whether it is vandalism or manners, or littering, or whatever, is it the responsibility of the citizens of the community to deal with those types of things when we see them? Will there be more knifes in the back? Will people stalk those who intervene and ransack their homes?

Or is this just a very small part of our society and this is just a bitch session on some blog just for the fun of it? Is there an issue here we can deal with individually rather than blaming others and getting others to do our "dirty" business?