Who Approved Gravel Sale?

Friday, August 31, 2007 04:00 AM

Gravel extraction is well underway behind the Kin Centres at Exhibition Park ( photo Opinion250 staff) Click on photo for video

As the hole east of the Kin Centres gets bigger, the Prince George Ice Oval Society is making more money. The gravel being removed from the site is being sold to CN for the new Intermodal centre being constructed near 1^st Ave in Prince George, and the Ice Oval Society is getting the cash for the aggregate.

Opinion250 contacted three City Councillors who all say they don’t remember the matter coming before Council for their approval.

Tom Madden, Director of Leisure Services in the city, says City Council gave approval to the Society at the meeting of May 29/2006. Madden, in a reply to a request from Opinion 250 said, “The following is excerpt from the minutes : The direction at Council meeting May29-06 was to allow the sale of gravel to be used by the Oval Society to leverage other levels of government funding, hence the resolution below:

“Endorsed the concept of the Ice Oval with the purpose of supporting the society in promoting the project locally, provincially and federally and refer the gravel request to administration for a response by June 26^th.”

Madden’s interpretation of the motion is quite different than the official version appearing in the minutes of the May 29th Council meeting.

“Moved by Councilor Basserman, seconded by Councilor Munoz, that the concept of the Ice Oval as presented with the purpose of supporting the society promoting the project regionally, provincially and federally be endorsed, and the matter of the gravel request be referred to Administration for a response by June 26^th-2006.

It is quite clear in the motion from Council that the Society was not given the gravel, it was referred to Administration. Madden says "the response reference by June 26^th was to let Council know how the gravel extraction worked out as the society had some looming deadlines for grants and a buyer. The gravel sale eventually did not proceed and the society has worked on it over the winter”.

At no point has the matter of the value of the gravel that the society is receiving come before Council according to Councilor Don Zurowski , "I don’t remember seeing it after the May 29^th ,meeting. ‘I don’t remember giving the Society any approval ." When asked just how much the gravel would be worth, Zurowski said, it depends "But as a city Councilor I don’t want to give anyone a winning lottery ticket."

Councilor Sherry Sethen says she can’t remember the matter coming back before Council. "I was off for a few meetings" she added "but I don’t remember ever approving the society receiving the gravel."

Councilor Brian Skakun says he also doesn’t remember but he is also checking his minutes to see if he can shed some light on the matter.

Everyone can stop checking the minutes of the Council meetings.

Tom Madden called late yesterday to say the matter never did go back to Council . Madden says he, and Development Services Bob Radloff, "Came away from that May 29th meeting believing we had the authority to make the gravel sale happen. We came away with the sense Council wanted us to advance the project with the removal of the gravel."

At the time the request was made, Ice Oval Society spokesperson Anne Poussette pegged the price of the gravel at about $90 thousand dollars. The actual price tag is not known.

On Thursday, during a tour of the gravel extraction site, it was evident that an oval was being created as the gravel is removed from near the CN Center.

Tom Madden says that is in keeping with the CIty’splans, as Council adopted the Exhibition Park Master Plan in November of 2005, that plan calls for the moving of the old oval. He says this is phase one of the project, the Society hopes to see a refrigerated Ice oval in the second phase.

Madden says the new site being developed is much better than the old facility, he also says it is not unusual for the city to give groups money from the sale of gravel in order for them to leverage dollars through other grants for the development of their respective facilities.

The Ice Oval Society is expected to appear before City Council on the 10th of September with an update on the project.

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Posted on Friday, August 31, 2007 04:00 AM in News by 250 News

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Comments

Posted by: acrider54 on August 31 2007 5:43 AM

Well CN did. Americans take what ever they want. But we did and are in the process of selling off all of our assets to the States anyway both federaly and provincialy.

Posted by: lunarguy on August 31 2007 6:01 AM

This is too funny. Between the elected officials and the many managers of this city they can not keep things straight such that a group of citizens manage to run control as they seem fit to start a major project without permission, on city land even. Hey people wanting the Performance Centre take the hint and start leveling the downtown RCMP building, you can sell of whatever you find and don't worry permits are not needed or anything.
The part that is even more concerning is that Madden doesn't even know what price is being charged for the gravel !

Posted by: RUEZ on August 31 2007 6:49 AM

acrider, what does this story have to do with the U.S.? Is this just an excuse to air your anti-American feelings?

Posted by: Moses on August 31 2007 6:54 AM

Forget Leisure Services and Development Services on this one. What about SUPPLY Services (City Purchasing)?

That gravel is worth $250 grand retail, minimum.

The City 'gives' it to a pet special interest group (who has the ear of Leisure Services and Development Services) who 'sells' it to a pet special interest group (who has the ear of Initiatives Prince George and Initiatives Gerry Offet).

Where is 'Supply' Services in all this? Does this fall under their mandate to facilitate the 'disposal of all surplus materials and equipment'?

If some of the highest quality, most accessible gravel in this town is 'surplus', I'd like some too please.

Alternatively, sell it at market rates in accordance with City policy, and let the taxpayer realize some benefit.

Posted by: YamaDooPolCat on August 31 2007 7:20 AM

Must be nice to have a development in this town the adminstration helps with. Never had that experience!

Posted by: metalman on August 31 2007 8:18 AM

I agree with all the above and would like to put my name in now for some of that gravel. Please reserve 200 cu. yds. for me. This is all so typical of the city of Prince George. Try to get development happening, or try to go through the correct channels to get something done and you get nothing but roadblocks, delays, "not my department" and any other red tape you can imagine. So, just go and do it and plead ignorance if you get caught seems to be the order of the day, "oh, I thought you said it was ok to take the gravel and sell it and not give the city a cut"
Well, that to me is akin to lying.
metalman.

Posted by: owl on August 31 2007 8:18 AM

Moses, you are right on! Where is the due diligence of the control from others? Did they all go back to the minutes? If so, what interpretation did they get from them?

Seems there is a procedures problem at City Hall if people can act on what they think. Who is the CEO? Who has what signing authority. As was stated, this is not peanuts. The money comes in to City Hall I would think, so someone would have to put together a contract which identifies the conditions of work on City property including assurance that insurance is in place, the rate of compensation for the gravel, the system of determining how much is removed, a survey control to ensure too much is not excavated, etc. etc.

So, does the money go to City Hall and then the ice oval group? Or is the ice oval group in charge of this whole thing?

It will be interesting to see how the new city manager will handle this. He did not create the original condition, but it is taking place under his watch.

Posted by: Buzz on August 31 2007 10:43 AM

Oh horrors...the gravel that is being dug up anyway for the new oval is being sold to help pay for the new oval. Could be worse in my mind...perhaps it would be better NOT to give the gravel profits to the Ice Oval people and then they can just ask the taxpayers for more money?!? Let them have the gravel for gods sake...it makes sense as the project is going ahead anyway.

My problem with the entire project is that I believe that the outdoor hockey rink that was at the center of the oval is being scrapped. I've seen hundreds and hundreds of people using the hockey area on a nice sunny winter afternoon, and only dozens using the oval. I hope I'm wrong on this, but I believe the ice oval people have absolutely no plans for anymore hockey area at that site. Now THAT'S something to question!!!

Posted by: bohemian on August 31 2007 12:05 PM

Where there is smoke, there is fire.

This issue points out a lot of smoke. What else goes on with our money that we don't know about?

Someone needs to be canned (finally).

Posted by: Chadermando on August 31 2007 2:27 PM

I agree with Moses and Bohemian. This should be done through proper channels, and if not then someone needs to be fired. It will be interesting to see who signed the contracts and how the money was channeled.

If the revenue went to a city account for holding purposes then thats one thing, but if its going directly to the Ice Oval group, then that is a crime IMO and someone should be held accountable.

To date the city has not approved the Ice Oval plan, so at this point I think we need to follow the money.

Posted by: Chadermando on August 31 2007 2:31 PM

Another issue would be if CN is getting a deal on this aggregate, is that at the expense of the local contractors who pay taxes to this city?

Is the city taxpayer subsidizing CN for their materials as well as for road improvements for their new facility?

.

Posted by: flowerchild on August 31 2007 3:21 PM

Actually, the City HAS approved the ice oval, they did that when they said yes to the exhibition park master plan in late 2005. The city has not approved ( tothe best of my knowledge) spending any money to build this faciity or to operate it.

Posted by: lunarguy on August 31 2007 3:52 PM

The exhibition park master plan is a failed plan already as three parcels of land they need have recently been sold off to private people and left some gaps in the design and it needs to all be reworked now. If the city was serious about the plan in 2005 they would have secured the land from the crown at that time.

Posted by: Harbinger on August 31 2007 8:33 PM

At least they know where to get gravel for sale if they need it back. And if it will be for sale. Bunch of maroons cept fer the guy who decided to help himself (or his company) fer the gravel. The follow up should be interesting. Why doesn't this stuff happen in an election year?

Posted by: owl on September 1 2007 8:41 AM

"Actually, the City HAS approved the ice oval, they did that when they said yes to the exhibition park master plan in late 2005."

They approved an ice oval in that fashion, no doubt. They did not approve an ice oval with are refrigerated track.

Posted by: diplomat on September 1 2007 3:37 PM

"...an ice oval with are refrigerated track."

That'll cost us 8 million (more with inflation) - triple that amount when they discover that a roof is needed (and walls all around!) to keep the nasty weather out!

Can the money from the sale of the gravel be used to fill a few of the bigger potholes around town, please?

Posted by: Palopu on September 1 2007 8:19 PM

I agree with Buzz when it comes to who will be using this facility. I noticed last winter that the ice hockey portion was used much more than the oval. At best at any given time you would see 10 people on the Oval, and therein lies the problem.

This Ice Oval Concepts cost was projected to be $13 Million in 2006. The society stated that they needed $7.5 Million to move the project forward. The money apparently will come from the Region (Which means PG Taxpayers and Regional District) the Province, and the Federal Government. The idea for the sale of the gravel was to get some funds available to the Ice Oval Society, so that they could then go to the other levels of Government to solicit money.

In any event if the number of people using the facility last winter is any indication, then this project should be stopped in its tracks right now.

I wait with bated breath to see how the City will get around having this gravel removed and sold, and given to the Ice Oval Society without Councils approval, if this is what happened.

One of the biggest problems I see with this City and Council is that most projects are decided before hand, and then they go to Council for the **Rubber Stamp** In this case it looks like the **Stamp** was used prematurely.

Posted by: diplomat on September 2 2007 8:07 AM

If the project eventually doesn't get enough funding from government sources and needs to be scrapped - will the Ice Oval Society (is it a society or a committee?) be required to relinquish all the gravel money and return it to the City?

I imagine that the money is being held by the City in a special account, rather than "the Ice Oval Society is getting the cash for the aggregate" as stated in the story.

Has a study been done to ascertain that the whole *refrigerated outdoor ice oval* idea is not just somebody's pipe dream and will not turn into a white elephant once built?

How many months in a year will it be in operation and making money? Does it have even the slightest chance of paying its own way? How much energy will it consume, how much additional staff, is there sufficient need in the general area and how many skaters will pay for the time to use it? Have the Councillors done their homework and are not just *following the leader*?

Don't we have enough expensive mega projects in the planning stage already?

No wonder City staff claimed to be overworked when it came to deciding on the ALR application matter in respect to the light industrial site at the airport.

Posted by: Palopu on September 2 2007 9:53 AM

Understand the facility will be used for Inline skating during the summer months, and will supposedly generate $90,000.00 in revenue per annum. $90,000.00 would pay for one City employee plus benefits. So if you need 4 or 5 employees, someone will have to pick up the tab for 4 to 500,000.00 per year.

Posted by: realitycheck on September 2 2007 9:56 AM

In fact, two extensive business plans were done and presented to Council.
I'm not 100% sold on the refrigerated portion of this project but they have done their homework.
The new location sans refrigeration will be a nice addition. It should help the ice stay longer and survive the thaws longer.

As for the hockey portion there is 20+ other community rinks that can be used. Several far more suitable. All I ever saw at the OIO was conflict between the hockey players and oval skaters, usually with the hockey players instigating. Seems the rules don't apply to hockey players for some reason (or so they think). Maybe that has something to do with there being no plans for a hockey rink in the new spot.

Posted by: thereasonableman on September 2 2007 10:28 AM

Actually, this city has a bunch of clowns for management. Why are you so shocked and surprised ?

This is just the next chapter in the book entitled, "The right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing."

The abbreviated form of the title is, "Duhhhhh...What ?"

Exerpt from council minutes:

"I was comatose for a few meetings, but I believed that they indicated that the feeling was positive about possibly going ahead and maybe giving some approval for some possible work to supposedly be maybe done."

Posted by: Runner46 on September 2 2007 7:35 PM

OK,,,,,quote bible and verse.

Posted by: Runner46 on September 2 2007 7:36 PM

Well back to the subject at hand. Gravel as a credit towards a recreational project. I understand that this is not a precedent and was actually done for the new Rotary Fields as well.