Taser Video Released

Thursday, November 15, 2007 06:01 AM

Robert Dziekanski raises his hands and doubles over when he is hit by a taser

The video of the police tasering of a Polish immigrant has been released to the public.

WARNING: This video is very graphic and some of the images may be disturbing to some viewers.

The video offers the complete version of events

(click on the video icon to view the 10 minute video which has been provided, courtesy CBC Vancouver)

Before the video was made public, the RCMP issued a release about the video and the investigation into the events which lead up to the death of Robert Dziekanski .

"The investigation into the October 14, 2007 death of Polish immigrant Robert Dziekanski at the Vancouver International Airport is continuing to be conducted by the Integrated Homicide Investigation Team.

Witness video taken by a civilian and seized by police has become the center of controversy over the past few weeks. The controversy has been whether police would return the video to the witness that captured the incident. Investigators have stated that the video would be returned when they were confident it’s return and probable release to the media would not compromise the integrity of the on-going investigation. It was paramount that the investigation was conducted in a fair an unbiased manner.

Investigators were able to complete the required interviews in anticipation of the potential release of video to the media The video was returned to the Lawyer of the witness on Wednesday November 7, 2007.

The community can be assured that all of the officer’s involved will be called upon to testify under oath at the Coroner’s Inquest. The inquest will be the venue in which the contents of the video and the actions of police will be scrutinized. Family and other interest groups will be able to apply for standing at the inquest, this will provide them the opportunity to ask questions to all those involved.

The Commission for Public Complaints has been involved from the onset of this investigation with full and unfettered access to the file and investigators. Their role is to monitor whether the investigation is conducted in a fair and unbiased manner. "

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Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 06:01 AM in News by 250 News

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Comments

Posted by: northman on November 14 2007 8:49 PM

I think we are going to see some big changes because of this. Its terribly wrong when someones death sparks motivation to change policy in this country.. The more i watch the news and see stories about our government failing to protect us the more i feel our freedom in this country has been striped from us. I think it all boils down to the government and justice system not holding the people who harm innocent citizens fully accountable for their actions. I hope that the witness who went public with the footage of this tragedy did so with the intention of the truth being exposed and not for financial gain.

Posted by: Andyfreeze on November 14 2007 9:30 PM

Brutal to watch, but what amazes me is the lack of apparent cocern by the RCMP!
In one shot on the video we can see one of the cops actually laughing?
And that was AFTER they knew the guy was dead.
Also,there was no effort to revive the poor bugger when there is portable defibulators throughout the airport.
They screwed up badly, but my guess is it will get washed away like some other of these cases lately.
Just plain sickening and a strong protest must be raised by the public!!
The RCMP obviously answer to nobody but themselves and that has to stop!!
So where are our great politicians now?

Posted by: jonnypg on November 14 2007 11:40 PM

What was the cop doing with that baton!

Posted by: tazed on November 15 2007 12:01 AM

I fail to see what the RCMP did wrong here. He was a threat and they arrested him. When your talking about the truth coming out, what truth are you talking about? The truth of the matter is, he was upset and violent, throwing a computer to the ground and several police officers stopped him using a taser, a weapon I would MUCH rather used on me then pepper spray (which you may feel the effects of for hours) or a night stick (which you may feel for months if you broke an arm). They did their job is all.

ps: My username has nothing to do with this story. It was a random name I created almost a year ago.

Posted by: YamaDooPolCat on November 15 2007 12:27 AM

That Polish fella was a bear. A hostile bear. This guy reminded me of some miners I used to work with. You had to watch and read their eyes. Nicest people you ever met most of the time, but I've seen them do amazingly cruel stuff for no reason that I could figure out.

I'd say the odds were about even with three to one, no need to use the taser. The Polish boy might still be alive, but the video of the take down would still be spectacular and cruel. This ain't Hollywood.

Posted by: YamaDooPolCat on November 15 2007 12:29 AM

Arms up, "Come on in boys!" Zap!

Posted by: owl on November 15 2007 1:50 AM

"police officers stopped him using a taser, a weapon I would MUCH rather used on me then pepper spray (which you may feel the effects of for hours)"

I betcha he would have preferred feeling the effects of pepper spray for hours rather than the effects of the taser for just a few minutes ...... and then be out of his misery ....

:-(

Posted by: owl on November 15 2007 2:05 AM

So, what have we learned from this?

How would a non-policeman deal with this?

1. Talk to the security agents who have been there a while observing and might have a bit of a clue whether this fellow was armed or not .... If he would have been, how did he get past airport security? ... so they really should not even have suspected that they were dealing with an armed individual ..

2. Secure the area ... restrict him to a samll area of the room and find out what language he speaks. If need be, wait it out till he falls asleep from exhaustion.

3. Obtain an interperter and try to talk him down from his agitated state ... he is really doing very little harm .. so a $1,000 computer bit the dust, big deal in relation to other risks, the worst of which happened in this case.

4. why would anyone think that he could not be talked to in a helpful manner and hear what he had to say? No attempt was made from the looks of it, other than by that lady who obviously lacked the proper police training to zap people rather than to reach out to them with palm up in a gesture of help.

5. If all that fails, including waiting till he collapses from exhaustion, then move in to control him.

These guys must have been late for their Tim Horton's break ... you can see that just from the way the guy was hitting something with the end of his baton several times over .... looks like he was trying to flatten a coin ..... looks like he needs anger management therapy. Hopefully it was not the fellow's hand he was breaking. That would have been rather stupid. Then again, he is RCMP.

Guess it's hard to get quality help everywhere these days.

;-(

Posted by: owl on November 15 2007 2:10 AM

Anyone notice the stance on the one security guy. Ready to take the big guy on. But he was likely not allowed to.

Then the lone strangers came in, jumped over the rail and showed those security guys how real men go about their job. No time to fool around. This is business fellows. The airport needs this space for the 6:05 to Winnipeg.

Posted by: Chadermando on November 15 2007 2:33 AM

I wonder why my last post was removed? Are we not allowed to express an opinion in favour of the rule of law applied equally for everyone and the right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty in Canada.

Since when did it become alright to allow police to be able to determine if someone lives or dies through their use of a tazer and the way that it is used in the heat of the moment? Always the view from police will be that they had to protect themselves and he died because he must have been using drugs. Its completely unacceptable especially when it is you that is pulled over on a dark hiway, or picked at random out of a crowd with the same effect. The Canada I thought I grew up in wouldn't stand for that kind of indignity to the rights of fellow person.

For the record I would not under no circumstances want someone sticking an electrode into me and turning up the voltage because they misinterpreted my eye movements or under any circumstances. IMO that is worse than any torture taking place in Afghanistan that we all want to complain about.

Think about how many people want to get tazered for real, and will volunteer to put their life on the line to see the results? I figure very few of us would.

So why then do we allow police to use an electrode voltage adjuster on us just so that they don't have to talk a situation down, or maybe get out the billy club, or pepper spray rather than the use of lethal force? How does that office know he will control his temper and dispense the proper voltage for the punishment, or that the person hooked up to the electrode doesn�t have any other medical problems? The end result is a dead guy who obviously didn't get to go on death row appeal before he was casually shocked into the ultimate penalty.

Posted by: acrider54 on November 15 2007 5:54 AM

I'm thinking the officer that kneeled and put all his weight on the victims neck did the final deed.

Posted by: Chadermando on November 15 2007 6:04 AM

I'm thinking the electrode attached to his neck and cut off his ability to breath. I think that is what killed him. Probably his neck muscles convulsed and then with the repeated 4 times they added voltage he probably didn't get a chance to breath until the officers were already standing on his neck.

IMO that would make it pre-meditated even more so than if they just aimed at his torso to apply the voltage.

Posted by: YamaDooPolCat on November 15 2007 8:01 AM

Can someone elaborate on how a taser works? Does it matter whether it is stuck in your big toe or on your nose? Are taser's "dial a dose" as Chader seems to think?

A knee in the back of the neck is a really unpleasant feeling. It hurts, whether you fight or not. It just a little worse if you fight.

I'm wondering what that RCMP fella was pounding on with the night stick. Either he kept missing or it was hamburger. I've seen guys that would not co-operate with a thumb hold and dislocate a thumb rather than give in, very painful. Their hand swells up like a football.

By the way raising your arms and facing the RCMP is game on. You have to turn around and put your hands behind your back.

This Polish fellow is old enough to have been around. I wonder what experiences this bear had in Poland that made him act the way he did? You have to admit it was buzzar and wild. Does Canada have a reputation as a push over where we tolerate violent tantrums?

Since this is an international airport I'd have to wonder how this would have played out in any other international airport around the world. They are all supposed to have the same security protocols.

Posted by: owl on November 15 2007 8:56 AM

From the linked site

"Once the electrodes hit their target, the Taser sends a pulse with about 50,000 volts and a few milliamps. On its standard setting, the pulse cycles for five seconds before shutting off. (The pulse continues for as long as you hold the trigger.) The five-second shock sends intense signals through the victim's nervous system, which causes considerable pain and triggers a contraction in all his muscles. Temporary paralysis can set in, and most victims fall to the ground. Tasers can also be used like regular stun guns in what's called "drive stun" mode. This causes more localized pain and less widespread muscle contraction.

The manufacturer warns that Taser shocks may cause breathing problems, skin irritation, small puncture wounds, or minor burns, and that the violent muscle contractions can result in "athletic-type injuries." Police officers are also instructed to "avoid weapon confusion"; i.e., don't mistake your handgun for a stun gun."

http://www.slate.com/id/2154253

Posted by: owl on November 15 2007 9:04 AM

This, I believe, is the real problem and is very evident to me in the video:

"There is also evidence to suggest that, far from being used to avoid lethal force, many US police agencies are deploying tasers as a routine force option to subdue non-compliant or disturbed individuals who do not pose a serious danger to themselves or others. In some departments, tasers have become the most prevalent force tool. They have been used against unruly schoolchildren; unarmed mentally disturbed or intoxicated individuals; suspects fleeing minor crime scenes and people who argue with police or fail to comply immediately with a command."

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR511392004?open&of=ENG-USA

Posted by: Chadermando on November 15 2007 9:08 AM

There you go with four bursts, at a 5 second minimum standard setting per burst and you have 20 seconds minimum of 50,000 volts that this guy took to the neck. No wonder he couldn't breath and subsiquently died. I'd bet that if that at least aimed fror a non lethal spot the man would still be alive today.

How would any one of us like to have an electrode shot into our face or neck and then 50,000 volts applied because the officer figured we looked at them wrong, or put your hands up but didn't turn around or something as simple as that that ends your life?

Posted by: skabowl1 on November 15 2007 9:56 AM

What really concerns me is the almost total lack of effort on the part of the officers involved to deal with this poor man in a non-violent fashion. The officers basically walked in and tazered the fellow and even then appeared to have no concern with dealing with the situation with anything but violence. The officers come across as lazy and unconcerned. That is a real shame for most RCMP officers are deeply caring, hard working individuals. These four cast a bad shadow on the entire force but worse still is the efforts of the RCMP PR flacks to pretend that nothing was wrong. Come on guys, just admit mistakes were made, take action to prevent a re-occurence and move on with doing the job that you normally do so well.

Posted by: editor on November 15 2007 10:12 AM

To Chadermando and all commentors, the comments were pulled because of the use of the word "murder". We can say people have been killed by the RCMP, we can say the RCMP took the life of a person, but the word "murder" has legal implications which can get us all in hot water.
Unfortunately we don't have the ability to edit your comments, so we have to pull the whole thing. I did send two e-mails explaining this to Chadermando. Since the e-mails were not bounced back as undeliverable, I can only guess the e-mails went through. Anytime we have pulled comments we have sent an e-mail to the writer to explain the reason why.
Please e-mail me if there are any more questions about this.
elaine@opinion250.com
thanks
Elaine Macdonald

Posted by: thereasonableman on November 15 2007 10:14 AM

"I'm thinking the officer that kneeled and put all his weight on the victims neck did the final deed. "

I agree. I think we are getting sidetracked with the taser issue. I don't suspect the taser had anything to do with it at all.

It is similar to a guy who got arrested by Vancouver PD years ago. Once the suspect was face down on the ground and handcuffed behind his back, the officer thought it was a great idea to kneel on top of his back while writing his notes in his notebook.

The last note was that the suspect was dead from not being able to breathe under the weight of the officer.

Aside from that point, the rest of their actions were pretty much par for the course in today's policing. Owl's thread regarding taser usage is absolutely correct. It makes cops lazy and they use it as a means of punishment for behavior they don't like, as opposed to using it for self-defense.

I think all involved failed miserably as human beings.

Posted by: owl on November 15 2007 10:43 AM

"I think all involved failed miserably as human beings."

Now there is a notion I have not heard for a long time and is right on the money!!

Posted by: skabowl1 on November 15 2007 10:56 AM

Posted by: lmorg on November 15 2007 11:40 AM

So many armchair quarterbacks here......

Posted by: lmorg on November 15 2007 12:04 PM

I've watch the video. I see nothing improper on the part of the police.
Here was a big man agitated about something...and acting violently and erratically. In full view of security he picked up a computer monitor and destroyed it. He then tossed something against the window of the glass partition in an attempt to break it. Even after he was tasered he was still able to struggle with 4 police officers. Think of how difficult it would have been to physically restrain this guy and get him handcuffed without the taser. They can't use pepper spray because they are in an enclosed area - the terminal may have had to have been evacuated. It was also obvious that this guy was facing off against the police officers just prior to being tased.

It is truly unfortunate that there was a language barrier but this guy could have and should have settled down realizing that it would just take a little longer to see his mother. She wasnt going anywhere and neither was he.

If I were y'all you should look up the term excited delirium and see why that short term medical condition may be applicable here.

Posted by: lmorg on November 15 2007 12:07 PM

And johnny pg: the officer was collapsing his expandable baton which had fallen out of his scabbard during the scuffle. When it is opened it locks in that position. You have to strike the tip downwards against a hard surface to close it.

Posted by: lmorg on November 15 2007 12:08 PM

Owl , your comments about the baton show that you are truly an idiot.

Posted by: Parrothead on November 15 2007 12:31 PM

This, along with the other issues that have affected BC's RCMP show just why the entire institution needs an overhaul. The RCMP *should* be an elite enforcement and investigation squad such as the FBI stateside. As it stands now, the RCMP have no respect from me, I view them with suspicion every time I see one. It is time to REFORM THE RCMP and return local policing to provincially or locally controlled departments.

Posted by: YamaDooPolCat on November 15 2007 1:04 PM

Posted by: lmorg on November 15 2007 12:08 PM
Owl , your comments about the baton show that you are truly an idiot."

Actually Owl is not an idiot. From my experience Owl is pretty smart, but that is a different problem.

Good point about the baton, see how easily something simple is misinterpreted!

Posted by: owl on November 15 2007 1:25 PM

"Owl , your comments about the baton show that you are truly an idiot."

I think that it shows that I have never seen a modern collapsible baton in action. It shows that, the same as other people, I learn new things every day.

Perhaps you need to learn some things too, Imorg. Just a suggestion.

;-)

Posted by: owl on November 15 2007 1:28 PM

"Owl is pretty smart, but that is a different problem."

You got that one right YDPC, it very much is a problem.

Posted by: owl on November 15 2007 1:50 PM

"So many armchair quarterbacks here......"

That is human nature ..... this site would not have people posting anything if that were not true.

Imorg, when you are together with others, do you never comment about current situations locally or in the world? Do you never express an opinion about an event that you had nothing to do with? Perhaps everyone you pal around with is of the same mind as you?

BTW, you said:
"Even after he was tasered he was still able to struggle with 4 police officers"

How do you know he was struggling? Watch the video a bit more closely. The guy was walking away from the RCMP; he put his hands up momentarily in a shrugging gesture as he walked away. They pursued him. When he was backed up against the counter facing them, his hands were down, not up as they tasered him �. He moved, without the RCMP, past the counter and then fell to the floor in writhing motions, rotating on the floor as he did. He was likely in spasm since that is the effect of the taser. The RCMP only then approached him as he was on the floor for maybe 5 seconds one at a time, holding him down.

What may seem to you may be a struggle. What I see is a state of spasms which he was obviously not in control of. How long they continued, and whether it ever turned to struggles is not possible to tell from the video. I would be surprised if even the closest bystander could tell us that. In fact, even the police may not be able to tell that.

So, if you read my post again about the baton you will notice that I said what it looked like, giving many options and not reaching any conclusions since it was not clear.

Unlike your decision that the guy was struggling. You make up your mind far too quickly. You flunk miserably as an objective observer. Perhaps you need to reconsider who the idiot really is. Not that a person who does not at least try to be an objective observer is an idiot. We would have far too many idiots in this world if that were the case.

;-)

Posted by: Andyfreeze on November 15 2007 1:57 PM

It's interesting that there are those who say this guy brought it on himself...?
But the really BIG question is,did he deserve to die for what he did?
Did he deserve to die for throwing a computer at the floor?
Did he deserve to die for throwing a small table at the wall or wherever?
Did he deserve to die for having a stapler in his hand?
Did he deserve to die for waiting in the terminal for well over 6 hours in a strange place with nobody to help and losing it?
He was crying and scared...did he deserve to die for that?
Did he deserve to die not understanding what the RCMP was telling him to do?
Did he deserve to die for putting his arms up in the air and walking away,even though there was reallly nowhere for him to go?
Did he deserve to die because there was only 4 supposedly fully trained cops and a couple of security guards to deal with him, and he had actually done nothing to anyone physically?
Maybe we should all remember this incident the next time we get pissed at some so called "security guard" at YVR who doesn't speak a word of english and is just plain rude,because it happens all the time!
There WAS a better way,and nothing, absolutely nothing, justifies what happened to this poor bugger.
True,the cops did not intend to kill the guy,but they sure as hell didn't do anything to access the problem and help this man the either.
Such a comforting scenario to watch and should be remembered by all the next time we need a cop to help us!

Posted by: heidi1555 on November 15 2007 3:00 PM

I have not yet watched the full video as kids are home sick from school but from what i've read about the situation i'm very saddened and yet again feel very let down.
Owl, luv you!!! I'd have to be an idiot to not say that. :)
We don't need the lmorg's of the world to tell us if this was right or wrong or try to bash down our souls to make us cave (won't happen). When it has this much upset from people of all sorts from all places that pretty much tells ya somethings not right about how this man died. When it's a child molestor hurt while being handcuffed do you see us complaining??? NO WE ARE CHEERING!

Posted by: lmorg on November 15 2007 3:16 PM

Owl, all you do is cut and paste..Ive read many of your posts and they are all informaton cut and pasted out of some other website.
You are the supreme plagerist.

Why don't you look up the term "excited delirium" and see what it means. I will bet you that is what happened to this guy.

This guy exhibited all the symptoms of excited delirium. A taser stun should not have caused this person to die.

I have seen a guy who when committing a break and enter with a weapoon, got shot in the chest by the homeowner and still be able to fight off 5 burley cops. This polish guy was a big dude and I can tell you that in his state of mind he would have wiped the floor with a couple of those police officers at least. I have seen it and I have been there. This guy was causing a disturbance and had committed mischief to property. He was arrestable in any country for what he was doing and just because he was upset at being delayed in being processed through customs gives him no right to go on a rampage.
And my powers of observation have served me quite well in my career thank you.

Posted by: lmorg on November 15 2007 3:21 PM

If you listen to the start of the video there is a comment by someone that the person had been trying to throw furniture through the windows. So, he was violent.

Posted by: tazed on November 15 2007 3:26 PM

It is unconscionable to let the media and others play up these incidents and smear the reputation of what is considered one of the finest police forces in the world. The men and women, who serve, go out each and every day to face whatever that day brings. Their day can be attending an accident with carnage that would make most of us sick and give us nightmares for many years. They attend domestic disputes knowing that the unpredictable can happen. They may save a spouse or partner from a beating only to have that very person they have rescued turn on them. I don�t know how I would deal with a drug user that is off on a trip. My choice, like most of you, would be to get as far away as possible and do it quickly.

These are the people who we call upon to protect us and we do not hesitate to ask them to take on a task that we are too weak or fearful to do. They respond and usually respond with care and professionalism. But, they are people, and mistakes will happen, as they do in any group. Because they are human is not a valid reason to hammer on them. Instead, we should pay attention to the thousands of good things they do to give us the security of peace and order in society. Perhaps it is time that we publicized the good they do rather than the occasional bad.

Next time you pass a member in the street smile and say thanks. If you see them in the coffee shop, buy them a coffee. They serve us well.

Posted by: tazed on November 15 2007 3:28 PM

lmorg I cannot agree with you more.

Posted by: dgdiggler on November 15 2007 3:29 PM

Hmmmm I checked it out and Lmorg's explanation certainly seems plausible.
And owl certainly does like to go on and on and on....

This is what I got from the web about excited delirium...there is alot more on it...

"The condition, described as an overdose of adrenaline, largely affects men with histories of drug use or mental illness, DiMaio said. He said most cases are triggered by drugs such as cocaine and methamphetamine.

The drugs elevate blood pressure and heart rate, and the increase is pronounced if a person is experiencing paranoia, hallucinations and violent impulses, DiMaio said.

Police often respond to calls of sufferers stripping off clothes to cope with a soaring body temperature, breaking glass and threatening others. The officers and the suspect struggle, and the excitement stresses the suspect's heart until it fails, DiMaio said.

"You are gunning your motor more and more and more, and it is like you blow out your motor," said DiMaio, who estimates that the condition kills as many as 800 people nationwide each year. "You are just overexciting your heart from the drugs and from the struggle."

Posted by: dgdiggler on November 15 2007 3:33 PM

This is not to say that the person in the Vancouver airport incident was a druggie or suffering from a mental illness, but his actions seen in the video certainly suggest that he may have been pumped up on adrenaline.

Posted by: dgdiggler on November 15 2007 3:57 PM

The taser itself is not a lethal weapon. It is not designed to be lethal. Whenever someone has died it was because of other contributing factors on the part of the person getting zapped. If someone is on a cocaine frenzy then that is a contributing factor. In the vancouver airport case the public will eventually find out.
I will say though, that the absence of the police or security doing any kind of first aid on the person after he was incapacitated is troubleing. Don't first reponders have CPR training? They could have checked him for breathing and a pulse and at least started chest compressions right away.

Posted by: acrider54 on November 15 2007 4:14 PM

Imorg, if you were tazered you'd be flopping around like a fish out of water yourself. You don't think the RCMP didn't do any wrong? How about trying to revive him, they didn't even consider that, just stood around like a bunch of dummies.

Posted by: Harbinger on November 15 2007 5:05 PM

Somehow I have lost a little more respect for the Mounties. Oh, I know. A few wreck it for all. Maybe if a Mountie even says good afternoon to me, I think I will fall on the floor and put my hands behind my head. Don't wanna risk being tasered fer being snobbish.

Posted by: lmorg on November 15 2007 6:30 PM

Acrider, I agree, If I were tasered I would be flopping around...as a matter of fact I would fall down due to loss of muscle control....... as a matter of fact I have been tasered and that is exactly what happened. But I am still alive and none the worse for wear. Before you go jumping to conclusions, it was part of my training....
I have to agree with dgdiggler in that after the person fell unconscious the officers should have started first aid. And dgdiggler's info about excited delirium is correct!

Posted by: Chadermando on November 15 2007 6:48 PM

I think Imorg is minimizing to protect his fellow buddies in the business.

Tazers kill people as has been proven on more then one occasion and for that simple reason should not be used no matter how convenient they make the job of a police officer. Prior to the 1990's and the discriminatory hiring practices of the RCMP they got along just fine without the use of that deadly indiscriminating weapon.

Give me a police baton and I would be able to single handily take down any excited delirium or otherwise character out there. No doubt in my mind about that, and so I see no reason why that should not be the weapon of choice for a police force that is trained in the use of take downs.

If an officer is to small, female, or small ethnicity, and they can not properly operate a baton then they should not be in the police force or at least not be first responders in cases that involved human contact.

Imorg if you are a small man that fits the above description then just admit it, rather than using your small man syndrome to justify deadly use of force.

Posted by: owl on November 15 2007 7:00 PM

Imorg wrote: �owl �. you are the supreme plagerist.�

Imorg. Please refrain from using words when you do not know what they mean. The words on the linked site below state that plagiarism is �the uncredited use (both intentional and unintentional) of somebody else's words or ideas.�

http://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/589/01

By pasting the site, I give the source. I cut and paste the highlighted words so that those who do not wish to, do not have to go to the linked site. Also so that they know which section of the writing on the linked site I refer to so that they do not have to guess.

When I cut and paste, with a linked site below it, I do so to bring in corroborating (hopefully you know what that means) opinion on a subject matter. In other words, unlike most other people here, I bring in evidence or opinion from those who are more expert at something to show that my opinion is not simply hot air. It is the method researchers and courts of law and administrative panels and many other organizations in a postion to make decisions have used for some time.

In other words, it is the start to answering the common response of �prove your point� before someone even asks. It is simply the way I am used to doing business. I relate the opinion of someone who shares my opinion and then I identify who the source is. You will note that those cut and pastes are always in quotation marks. This site does not allow me to identify them by changing the font style/colour for instance.

It is the antithesis of plagiarism.

Sorry if I might be too thorough for you, Imorg.

So tell me, since you have had to go or have chosen to go through the taser experience, are you an auxilliary cop, security guard, or jail guard?

Posted by: Chadermando on November 15 2007 7:03 PM

Opinion 250 I disagree with your rational on the post removal.

I think when the take down happens with little to no negotiation, the tazer electrode is aimed to the neck area causing breathing restriction, the use of a knee to the back of the neck, crazy baton smacking, and then they all stand around once the guy has stopped breathing? With all those factors I think it is a justifiable opinion to state that one feels it is a second degree crime that was committed involving death.

I think where the weapon was aimed, was it a last resort, was the force excessive for a man that is already down, and why was a man denied first aid treatment when he was obviously unconscious are all relevant questions that could lead one to believe a crime has indeed been committed.

I don�t think that is the real reason why the post was removed though, but rather because of the crude way in which I described my view of the police demeanour in which they took those actions. Particularly the old Vietnam slogan of sort them out latter. Maybe that was overboard, but I will still stand by that assumption on my part. It�s a cultural issue for the RCMP and not an issue where I should have to limit my opinion of the matter, although as site administrators I guess you have the right to limit what is posted on this web site if the opinion takes to harsh of a tone, and I can respect that.

Posted by: owl on November 15 2007 7:03 PM

"The taser itself is not a lethal weapon. It is not designed to be lethal."

Neither is water .... until you hold someone's head under water for too long ...

;-)

Posted by: owl on November 15 2007 7:12 PM

dgdiggler ...

What you quoted is from a completely different scenario which would place the person into a drug related setting. There is nothing in the YVR incident which would place that man into the same kind of profile ...

Here is your quoted story:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15001627

It starts off with:

"DALLAS - Police found 23-year-old Jose Romero in his underwear, screaming gibberish and waving a large kitchen knife from his neighbor's porch."

It is always good to put quoted sections into context for the reader...

Posted by: thereasonableman on November 15 2007 8:10 PM

"This guy exhibited all the symptoms of excited delirium."

Even if all the members involved had a psychiatry degree, they were not present long enough to do an assessment of the situation, let alone the individual involved. So it's a moot point - a diversion from the topic.

They were not yet even at the scene when one officer asks another, "May I taser him ?" The answer was, "Yes."

Neither had any idea what was going on, and they had already decided they were going to taser him.

Piss poor police work, piss poor police members involved, piss poor excuses drawn after the fact based on "maybe" and "if".

Lastly:

- the baton is called an "ASP" and the joker is right about it having to be banged down hard to collapse it once it is extended, as it is designed to lock open once it is extended

- Owl is at the very least a thinker, and has demonstrated in his posts the ability to at least think for himself and arrive at an objective opinion, however flawed or not. I have never found him to be plagiaristic (a copy-cat). He simply feels compelled to back up his opinion with documentation. (sometimes too much so, but legit nonetheless)

- I think you would have to be "truly an idiot" to not realize what a fiasco this incident is

- We civilians are not near as weak and afraid as you think, most of us are very capable and wonder where you recruit these donkeys from (remember, it's us that makes this whole system work for you, cops do not create any consumable product or service)

Posted by: lmorg on November 15 2007 8:31 PM

chadermando ,the days where you have to be male and over six feet tall in the rcmp are far over. Have used the baton on more than one occasion and can tell you that the baton will not stop someone who is already crazied. It is a pain inflicting tool to stop an aggressor and when people are in that state of mind they don't feel pain. So bones get broken and all parties get damaged. The taser does not kill, it incapacitates. I read dg's and owl's post and owl convieniently leaves out the fact that it doesn't have to be just drugs involved with excited delirium..it could be any state of mind that causes the victim's body to keep pumping out an abnormally high level of adrenaline. This is a very new discovered phenomena and many emerg doctors and paramedics will state that they have seen it happen but didn't recognize what exactly was going on inside the person.

Part of the iaaue may be that yes, the RCMP is made up of too many junior members in the lowermainland who don't have the experience in dealing with people of varying levels of violent behavior. After all, members of the rcmp are retiring faster than they can hire them and the lower mainland is the area with the greatest need.

There are a lot of coulda, woulda, shoulda comments but here was a guy who was trying to toss equipment through a glass partition = acting irrationally. Those monitors aren't light. And from close ups of the video he MAY have been under the effects of excited delirium. The police could not simply stand around after being called there and wait until this person took off and hurt someone or wrecked something else.

I will say this. First aid should have been performed in my opinion. I believe someone said chest compressions?? I agree after the members ensured the scene was safe for them to approach the man down and ascess him.

I will ignore the small man syndrome comment of yours - since I'm 6'2" and 240 lbs and been doing the job for 20 yrs. By the way, the polish fellow made me look small.

Posted by: Andyfreeze on November 15 2007 10:40 PM

Not really much point in arguing the right and wrong of how and why this guy died.
In the end, none of this will matter because once again, the RCMP will investigate themselves and pronounce that they are completely innocent.
And all our elected representatives will re-insert their heads in their butts and go on with whatever it is that they pretend to do for us.
Not a pair of balls among them.
Any other investigations conducted by anyone else will be filed away and forgotten.
We have seen unarmed people die at the hands of the police far too often over the last few years, and nothing has been done to change the way the RCMP conduct their business.
And it's not going to change either.
Fear itself is one of their best weapons and they like it that way.
So does our government.
The once great RCMP are no more than a token shell of what they once were and that in itself is a damn shame.
But whether or not we think they did the right thing or not,it is another blow to the support and confidence I am sure many of us USED to have in our protectors.
This is what happens when free reign is given to an entity that answers only to itself.
It is a very sad day for Canada and democracy in general, because no matter how you cut it,unarmed people who make a mistake should not be dying at the hands of the police.
I notice they all wear gloves now,even in the summer...is that so they do not have to touch the common man anymore?
Step back and take a good look, because this disgusting mess is about as wrong as it gets!

Posted by: Raparee on November 15 2007 10:46 PM

"Give me a police baton and I would be able to single handily take down any excited delirium or otherwise character out there. No doubt in my mind about that, and so I see no reason why that should not be the weapon of choice for a police force that is trained in the use of take downs."

Now there's some chest-thumping for you. Your friend Wiley too, was in a state of excited delerium, and six cops, all with batons, could not restrain him.
You don't know what you're talking about.

And can you imagine the outrage had the police used their batons? Lovely video of a poor immigrant being beaten by those evil, nasty, murderous police.

It wasn't that long ago, either, that there was an uproar about the use of batons in situations like this.

Posted by: Raparee on November 15 2007 10:48 PM

"I notice they all wear gloves now,even in the summer...is that so they do not have to touch the common man anymore?"

You're kidding, right?

Posted by: YamaDooPolCat on November 16 2007 12:00 AM

Chadermando says.."..crazy baton smacking,.."

Heehee! I crack my knuckles! Both are harmless, but does that both you as well? You're funny!

Posted by: Chadermando on November 16 2007 12:48 AM

Raparee, that all depends on your perspective? Is your baton to be used with full force as a preferred first option, or is it viewed as a tool to be used as back-up in negotiating compliance?

One view initiates the pre-emptive force as in the case here of Robart being tazered.

The other view is the view that force can be presented in a non lethal form for negotiating, and if negotiations fail and the guy is showing aggression, then that I would think justifies more force. Robert showed no aggression that I could see towards the police before he was tazered.

If the police require cattle prods to do their job, then one must ask why don't bouncers from bars and clubs, who deal with encounters much worse than this on a nightly basis, why don't the bouncers also require the cattle prods to get the job done? In the future will we have bar club bouncers shooting stray electrodes around in over crowded bars, maybe even tazers with multiple electrodes good for covering more area and thus more people? If not than why not if its ok for the police?

Posted by: dgdiggler on November 16 2007 8:47 AM

"Robert showed no aggression that I could see towards the police before he was tazered"

Huh? He had barricaded the doorway, tried to toss things through the glass and picked up a computer monitor and smashed that. What more do you need?

Posted by: Andyfreeze on November 16 2007 12:08 PM

Of course I am kidding Raparee, but you really do start to wonder what is actually going on within the RCMP?
Because whatever it is,IS getting worse.

Posted by: dgdiggler on November 16 2007 4:43 PM

Plus, he was six foot nine inches tall!

Posted by: YamaDooPolCat on November 16 2007 6:02 PM

61 posts + some removed, has to be a record?

Posted by: thereasonableman on November 16 2007 6:36 PM

Chadman, they are right about the baton being useless. All it does is injure people and leave nasty ugly marks and bruises. They do very little to subdue a person. Pepper spray or taser is a better choice.

My beef is the quick resort to the taser as an alternative to real police work. You still need to try to resolve the situation in a non-violent manner. Before we got pepper spray, cops would try and talk a person down and gain co-operation.

Pepper spray made cops less patient and less willing to talk it out. If they didn't make immediate progress, pepper spray was the quick closer. It made cops lazy until there became instances where it was not effective (mostly user error).

Now that we have a pepper-spray-like device which is ALWAYS effective, it gets depended upon much more than communication skills. It makes cops even lazier, more short-tempered and impatient, and becomes the method of resolving any conflict quickly and easily, with very little effort.

That is the only problem with the taser. Otherwise, if used properly and sparingly, is a good and proper tool for the police to immobilize a violent person.

In the airport case, I believe the man was unable to breathe with the officer on his neck. I believe that was the critical mistake made.

Posted by: owl on November 17 2007 6:13 PM

So here is a statement from a post above:

"Robert showed no aggression that I could see TOWARDS THE POLICE before he was tazered"

I capalized the words to place emphasis on three important words ...

dgdiggler theh "rationilzed" (an I use the word very loosely

"Huh? He had barricaded the doorway,"

First, that was before the police arrived. Second, barricading oneself is a defensive action, not an offensive action.

"tried to toss things through the glass"

That is an aggresssive action against an inanimate object which is vandalism or destructive action against poperty no people.

"and picked up a computer monitor and smashed that."

Ditto as above ....

He did not toss the chair at the RCMP, nor any of those who were actually there as he tossed it. And he did not toss the computer monitor (or whatever it was) at the police or whoever was there at the time that he did that.

"What more do you need?"

Well, you said it and the report put out over 2 years ago said it .... aggressive action against PEOPLE ....

I am wondering in my mnd how you can possibly not understand that. However, for whatever reason, you do not quite make the rational connection in your brain that reasonable people are capable of making.

So, if the RCMP think the same as you do, then we must make sure that when they go to training in Regina, those who are not able to make the proper connection between aggression towards people and aggression towards inanimate objects go into the flunkie column and simply are not allowed to pass.

Posted by: Raparee on November 17 2007 6:29 PM

Watch the video. When confronted by the police, he picked up a stapler. THEN he was tased. That, to me anyhow, would be consedered an aggressive act against the police.