Thank's for the information we need people in the media to eloquently inform the public so there is a chance we will change the government that is destroying this province.

If this government is somewhat arrogant and heavy handed (according to Raife) - the previous one was the opposite by being indecisive and dithering and consequently hardly got anything done while still doubling the debt of the province with very little to show for.

Now, what choices do we have? Choose the lesser of the two *evils*?

Raife: "They have us importing “dirty” power from Alberta while not telling us that this is re-sold to the United States at huge profits."

Are the Albertans really this stupid? Why don't they sell the power directly to the States and keep all those huge profits for themselves?

If there are such huge profits to be made they can build the required power lines (I am assuming they don't have any to the States) and rake in the dough.

Obviously there is some information missing here.

diplomat, Rafe is correct,the reason Powerex can resell alberta power at a higher rate is because BC Hydro effectively "stores" electricity in it's reservoirs --- which coal fired generators cannot do. Powerex buys electricity at low prices during those hours when demand is low,shutting down hydro generators and saving water, and then selling extra electricity at higher prices when demand is higher, by increasing water flow thru the generators.
Coal, gas, and nuclear power cannot economically regulate electricity production like hydro -- they must produce electricity at the same rate around the clock regardless of demand.
On our coldest day of the year when demand is highest BC uses about 10000 megawatts .BC Hydro's capacity is a little better than 11000 megawatts. Powerex buys and sells electricity because those reservoirs allow them to do it --- a gold mine.

So what else is new. It is unbelievable that the rape of our natural resources has been going on for years most often by offshore owners who use them for profit.

BC Gas was sold off but they stopped at BC Hydro. To get their freinds involved for profit in electic power they are allowing private development so that they can also sick it to the consumer.

Why is this all happening? Surely its not about our politicians feeling good? Is it thier need for funds at elction time? Its happening on the municipal, provincial and even the federal levels of government.

Tell me Diplomat we were about in the same place we are today when the NDP was elected and its been said that it was a protest vote against the Socreds. They may have done some dumb things but they did not sell off our crown corporations. And its easy to forget that during the NDP reign the Asian market went into the dumper. Remember?

The BC economy is up right now but waite till the other shoe drops when Gordo gets dumped. What will the debt be then. liberalism is a great phylosophy but thats not what we have in BC today and its what we need.

We relly need Site C but who will have the balls to do it.

Cheers

rufus1 is pretty well 'on the money' with his comments above, Diplomat. We may well be a net 'importer' of power in terms of "kilowatts", (from Alberta's "dirty energy" thermal plants in the off-peak hours), but are we running any deficit because of that in terms of "dollars"? I hardly think so!


That's the question I asked an official from BC Hydro who phoned our business several months ago to tell us about this month's proposed increase in our rates because of a change Hydro is making to their metering. I didn't get an answer.

There are many things to criticize during the NDP's 10 year reign. There were a litany of utterly stupid moves made which completely overshadowed some of the sensible things they did do. One of which was NOT to go into an "austerity" mode ala BIll Bennett when the Asian economies went into meltdown. The Provincial debt did indeed double during their watch, and a great deal of what was spent was spent foolishly. But for the most part it WAS spent HERE IN BC. Not in Germany, to build ferry boats our own shipyards could have, and should have, constructed. And this spending DID keep our economy from becoming a lot worse than it otherwise would have been.

It might be of interest to note that when BC entered Confederation in 1871, one of the main inducements was that the Dominion government absorb the Colony's debt. We came into Canada "debt free", and EVERY government, with one brief exception due to a fluke during World War Two, has increased the size of the Provincial Debt.
(WAC Bennett converted much of it into 'contingent liabilities', but it was still a Provincial responsibility in the final analysis.)

"Why is this all happening? Surely its not about our politicians feeling good? Is it thier need for funds at elction time? Its happening on the municipal, provincial and even the federal levels of government."

I believe it's happening because of an uncorrected 'flaw' in the way cost-accountancy is done. When what should really be viewed as a 'three-dimensional' system is only seen as 'two-dimensional'.

In other words, the physical reality of FACTS can't be accurately represented numerically by the existing extent of accounting FIGURES.

We can represent very accurately under the existing conventions of double-entry accounting what is going on in any individual business. Or, if you cared enough to keep your own set of books the same way, for recording your own personal finances.

What we cannot currently do, however, is correlate these representations of increase or decrease in individual net worth into the economy of the country or the province as a whole.

So in place of what is the accounting equation of Assets=Liabilities+Capital found on any individual balance sheet, in the case of the government of a country or a province "Capital" is replaced by a National or Provincial Debt.

One which cannot generally be repaid without either,

1. a serious contraction in existing money, which means the producers of real goods and services cannot recover the costs of their making,

2. a transfer of debt fom one level of government to another, and ultimately, back to the citizens of the country itself individually, who can't repay without increasing it, or,

3. a constant excess of exports over imports, and a receipt of international credit for the difference. This latter is what every country that is industrialised is aiming for. It cannot be achieved, since it is a mathematical impossibility to have EVERY country running a "favourable" balance of trade always.
And when they can't, they do the next best thing, and go to war.

The solution is to do what the politicians are already telling us they do, but don't. Keep a PROPER SET OF BOOKS that ACTUALLY DO RECORD THE FACTS. ALL OF THEM. It's just that simple.

socredible, you have nailed it all down and I have to agree its as simple that but it raises another question. Why?

The big problem is that we live in a democracy and we ALL need to partisipate in this hallowed philosophy. But do we?

In the last municipal election 47% of voters turned up to execise their FRANCHISE. In the provincial election the turnout was somewhat higher. Bur only because we despised the NDP and didnt want them back. Because We live in a democrcy
we must direct our politicians and not the politicians direct us.

Since the second world war we have forgotten about the "greater good" of our country, our province and our municipalities. We Come first and not the state.John Kenneth Galbraith called it the affluent society and Plato,told us that "unless we take an interest in those who govern us we shall be governed by those worse then ourselves".

Cheers

More info:

http://www.watershed-watch.org/publications/files/Run-of-River.pdf

I know there are problems with the STV system we will again be asked about in the next election. But can we really do worse. Might it be time for another kick at that cat. I understand in Tasmania they use it, and the representatives stick up for their riding or their gone come election time. Parties know that PG is a given,both provincial and federal, so they concentrate their money and spending in other ridings. And we get the talking heads.

More info:

http://www.watershed-watch.org/publications/files/Run-of-River.pdf

Bridge, I agree with you in part. Where you say we ALL need to participate, and, really, I would say, take more personal responsibility for achieving whatever it is we want to see done. We DO need to do that if we want to have a functional democracy, definitely.

The prevention of the 'privatization' of the Coquihalla highway showed that it CAN be done. But it is difficult to sustain such public pressure for long. Since, if you recall the events surrounding that epidsode, Gordo still stuck us with a $ 3 increase in the toll!

On a road that former Premier Bill Bennett said publicly on TV that had been paid for years ago! And from the public....? Nary a whimper!

We shouldn't ever let power seeking "Party" politicians bamboozle us into thinking what's physically possible, and socially desirable, can't ever be done, "Because we haven't got the money..." Yet this happens all the time, and mostly because we don't know any better. And often, I think, they don't either.

govsux, I think that the STV system is really no more than a "red herring". It's a "diversion", to con us into believing that through this form of 'proportional representation' we're going to get better government.

I really don't believe that will prove to be the case in any MEANINGFUL way. Instead, I think it'll turn out to be a real detriment to effecting any needed changes. One which we'll find hard to get rid of once it's been instituted, and we find its good expectations are still not being delivered upon.

As long as we elect people who, no matter what their Party is, get in and then tell us, "Well, we know we promised you the new whatever, and we're still going to build it, someday, but right now WE HAVEN'T GOT THE MONEY, so we can't", what we're hearing is a tacit admission that, no matter how our 'representatives' are elected, FPP, STV, MMP, or however, the FINAL say is NOT with us, but with THOSE WHO "HAVE" THE MONEY. (Or, more correctly, the monopoly of its creation.)

"But for the most part it WAS spent HERE IN BC. Not in Germany, to build ferry boats our own shipyards could have, and should have, constructed."

I remember that three aluminum Fast Cat ferries were indeed built in B.C. - they are quietly rusting away at anchor.

Some countries specialize in shipbuilding - for instance Korea, Germany, Poland, Finland. They have done so for decades and can offer a superior product on budget and on time, guaranteed to work as designed.

Every time one mentions the NDP bleak years the old story of the Asian markets tanking is brought up.

It doesn't hold any water - every province in Canada from coast to coast was totally unaffected by the slumping Asian markets, except B.C.

B.C. tumbled from #1 position as a *have* province to # 10 as a *have-not* province while all the other provinces advanced positively during the same time period, even the traditionally *have-not* provinces.

Surely, the Asian market flu wasn't the one and only factor? Definitely it did have to do with how B.C. was mismanaged and spin-doctored into a tail-spin.

"Liberalism is a great philosophy but thats not what we have in BC today and its what we need."

Well, you are correct. How is voting for the NDP going to bring Liberalism?

"We really need Site C but who will have the balls to do it."

The Liberals want to do it, but the opposition of the NDP and the environmentalists will probably prevent it from ever happening.

The environmentalists frown on wind power and nuclear power as well and they will probably find something wrong with just about any kind of power that involves *trifling* with Mother Nature.

Good thing the Socreds constructed all those hydro dams or we would really be up the creek.

The three aluminum Fast Cat ferries were indeed an example of NDP mismanagement.

Which was compounded when the current Liberal administration sold them for a ridiculously low price. Below their value as scrap, I believe.

When they could most likely have been used until better ships, along the lines of the two large "Spirit" class vessels, (which WERE built in BC, on time and on budget, could have been constructed.)

Instead of that those visiting on or off the Island in summer, and often at other times of the year, too, must now either shell out 'more' dough, (on top of the already over-inflated fare), for a reservation. Or risk enduring a two or three sailing wait. Without even so much as a "Sorry for the inconveniece" sign, ala Flyin' Phil of old to show that anyone in Campbell's government even cares.

The point is, though, that even though the Fast Cats were ill-conceived (and about as uncomfortable as Sky-Train to ride on!), the money that was spent on building them STAYED HERE.

It provided incomes for those British Columbians who built them, and revenue for those firms, BC firms in most cases, that suppplied the materials. And their employees and owners. And that money, as far back as you want to take it, was SPENT RIGHT HERE IN BC for the most part.

And 'taxed' here in BC, too. Both when it was earned, and when it was spent. Each time. And, as it's quite easy to prove mathematically, if you 'tax' a dollar enough times, ALL OF IT is returned to the government!

How many of our dollars were returned to OUR government when we build our ships in Germany?

Now it's quite true that we were a "Have-not" Province under the NDP. But was this such a 'bad' thing? I think not. It's one of the very few times since we got Ottawa to absorb the Crown colony's debt that we've ever had money COMING BACK TO US!

WAC Bennett used to say that financially the Feds treated us "like a goblet to be drained", as they collected far more from us than they ever spent on us. And they did, too.

Finally, the situation reverses, and we start to see some equalization payments back from all we've sent eastward for all these years. And Campbell prides himself on turning THAT around? Restoring us to 'paying' more than we're 'receiving'? How in the world does that benefit us?

BC had a far higher percentage of its exports going into those Asian markets than did the other Provinces, Diplomat. We weren't as tied to the USA as those to the east of us are.

Pretty near all the major Coastal sawmills exported green hemlock baby squares (4x4s, nominally)into the Japanese market, and also were building market share in Korea and China. They'd largely vacated the US dimension market, in favour of the lower cost SPF Interior mills.

The Coast, which was still a much more signifigant lumber producing area than it's subsequently become, was hit very hard when the Asian financial meltdown occurred.

And, at the same time, our good 'friends' in the European Union, including the Germans to whom we're so anxious to give our shipbuilding business, insisted that BC lumber entering European markets had to be "heat treated", or "pasteurized", effectively making it unable to compete costwise with European produced lumber.

So there WAS a signifigant impact due to the Asian meltdown, it wasn't ALL just an excuse for NDP mismanagement. Of which there certainly was also more than enough.

"And their employees and owners. And that money, as far back as you want to take it, was SPENT RIGHT HERE IN BC for the most part."

Since the ill-conceived FastCats' *retirement* the amount of money borrowed to construct them was added to the debt of the province and annual interest is paid to service that portion of the debt.

So, we are still paying for them with the taxes the province collects from us for years to come.

You question why the new ferries were purchased from a European country instead of producing them here.

In order to produce world-class ferries here at a reasonable cost market research showed that in order to justify the enormous investment a new competitive shipyard would have required - it would have been uneconomical to just construct ferries for our own use without having any prospect of orders from other countries.

Just like with passenger jets (Boeing, Airbus) Canada purchases products from outside of the country all the time. We trade with others and as long as we have a positive trade balance we can't complain and continue to rely on others to buy our products and we take advantage of their expertise and established industries to acquire the well-made products that appeal to us.

Why were the new container cranes for the port of Prince Rupert ordered from China? Was there a Canadian manufacturer who bid competitively on that project?

Did a Canadian shipbuilder put in a competitive bid on the new ferries project for B.C.?

If not, why not?

diplomat say, "Did a Canadian shipbuilder put in a competitive bid on the new ferries project for B.C.?
If not, why not?"
Because there are no ship builders in the country. This is what Glen Clark tried to do. The ships had cost overruns and could have worked if more money was spent. However Campbell needed a distraction from his pesky DWI charge. So he had an auction and on the day his verdict was announced, the ferries were auctioned off and we hear lots about them but little about the criminal outcome for our premier. Another aspect to BC's financial troubles was the lack of transfer payments from Ottawa. Don't forget that the federal Liberals were in power with Paul Martin as Minister of Finance and he had major support from Christy Clark's husband and and Bornman(n) of the BC Rail scandal. They wanted to get rid of the NDP and did every thing they could to do it. The press blew these situations way out of proportion and when you see the papers these days, dome of the cabinet resignations don't even make the front page.

I believe the main reason the new ferries weren't built in BC was primarily because of the pettiness of the present government.

That's the same reason why the 'Fast-Cats' were sold off at far less than what we should have received for them.

And the same reason why the Liberals wouldn't attend the opening ceremony for the new Victoria to Campbell River Inland Island Highway. Commissioned and started by the Socreds, and built to completion, without any of the labour strife that usually accompanies such a megaproject, through agreements negotiated under the NDP.

Pettiness, from a mean-spirited ideologue who forgot, (or never ever realized), that he was elected to be Premier of ALL British Columbians, not just the ones that belong to his "Party", or share his fundamentally narrow minded, increasingly defective, global-capitalist ideology.

Gordon Campbell has never made one move that I can recall to find the kind of unity that would see ALL British Columbians coming together in common cause to truly make this country "the best place on Earth." For each and every one of us. Not just a favoured "some" of us.

He's never emulated WAC Bennett, who, even though he made mistakes, learned from them. And NEVER forgot that even his political opponents were still to be regarded personally as friends he hadn't quite won over yet.

The two existing "Spirit" class ships didn't require a new shipyard when they were constructed, and I doubt very much that the new German-built vessels are any larger than they are. And, as I seem to recall, our shipyards were told they wouldn't be receiving the order, or even a chance to bid on them.

It used to be that the BC Social Credit movement had a saying, "What BC makes, makes BC." But that requires thinking, on just how we can do it. And do it better. But those who are petty, and small, like Gordon Campbell, are global groupies. Not thinkers, nor leaders.

"Because there are no ship builders in the country. This is what Glen Clark tried to do. The ships had cost overruns and could have worked if more money was spent."

Sure, keep throwing more and more money at them. Then scrap them. Good grief! They were already way over budget and not even delivered on time!

The design was flawed and not suitable for our waters, because of the huge wake they created, washing out shorelines and people's landings and moorings. That forced them to have to slow down and that defeated the very concept of a fast ferry.

"Another aspect to BC's financial troubles was the lack of transfer payments from Ottawa."

All provinces had their transfer payments from Ottawa reduced when Martin was trying to get the huge deficit spending under control.

The idea that there was a plot by the Federal Government to oust the B.C. NDP is a nice plot for a B movie, but that is about all!

Can't the NDP ever admit that they were the architect of their own failures?

Of course it is much easier to shift the blame elsewhere! Four premiers in ten years indicates to me that they didn't have a real handle on things, ever.

Cheers!

When the new German built ferries break down, are we going to tow them back to Germany to have them repaired? What's it going to cost 'extra' to have our shipyards do the repairs on ships they are not anywhere near as familiar with as ones that we're designed and built here in the first place?

The argument over whether we should try to source everything we buy locally is somewhat moot in the case of things like large passenger aicraft, and many other items. We don't have in place the facilities to build many of these things. Nor, as you say, would it be cost effective to create them.

But we DO have in place shipyards that could've contructed new ferry boats. And those shipyards are good enough to be able to attract considerable repair and refit business from international cruise ship operators whose liners ply our waters.

As well as constuct many new and innovative vessels. The self-dumping, and later self-propelled log barges were pioneered in our yards. They, and the people that own and are employed by them pay considerable amounts of money in taxation here.

They represent a far more useful presence on our waterfronts than the high-priced condos I've no doubt our land-pimping Premier and his mega-bucked cronies would like to see replace them.

For they are areas where people actually still do 'work'. To produce something real, and useful, and needed. What do we lose when we dump on our own industries? We lose the real opportunity to take advantage of what's taken, in many cases, a lifetime of work to build up. Something that, once it's lost, often is gone for good. And to what advantage?

"When the new German built ferries break down, are we going to tow them back to Germany to have them repaired?"

Of course, there will be no need for that. Local mechanics receive the proper training and familiarization with the equipment so that regular maintenance and required repairs will be done here. A spare parts inventory is kept here and if a problem develops that requires more specialized knowledge a German mechanic can be flown in on the next available flight to supervise the repairs and give additional training.

The ships come with a warranty period and this gives the local technicians and mechanics ample time to become experts themselves.

Your points in respect to supporting our own industries are well taken, but in this case there was no local viable industry to support and the need for new ferries was extraordinary because a lot of time and money had been wasted on the building of the Fast Ferries with nothing to show for at the end of the day.

A half dozen conventional ferries could have been built with the same time, effort and money during that time, but they were not.

"But we DO have in place shipyards that could've constructed new ferry boats. And those shipyards are good enough to be able to attract considerable repair and refit business from international cruise ship operators whose liners ply our waters."

Now your argument has come full circle! Why would those international cruise ship operators have their ships constructed in B.C. because, by your logic they would have to be towed ALL THE WAY BACK TO B.C. when they need to be repaired???

Cheers!

I'm lost. I have enjoyed the various opinions that have been presented. I applaued socredible and diplomat that you have remained on the subject and not attacked one another.

It is this idea that democracey is all about. But do not forget that most politicians today are not very nice and it is your ideas and dialogue that needs to be presented to them and we have to get them to listen.

As you have both pointed out there were problems with the NDP and the Liberals are no different today. They have completely forgotten our society and are focused on the economy And it is up to us to point them in the right direction. We must not get carried away by political philosopy. We must focus on the government at hand.

Cheers

Thanks, Bridge. And I agree with what you've said above.

To get back to Diplomat, I can see why you say "my argument has come full circle." But even though that may seem to be the case, I would contend that it really hasn't.

Our shipyards are capable of doing repair and refit work 'competitively' when foreign registered cruise ships that travel the Inside Passage to Alaska are already here.

In other words, the people who work here in those yards are NOT so grossly overpaid for the kind of work they do that the cruise ship operators would take their vessels to lower wage, and lower cost shipyards elsewhere to have this kind of work done.

And given the alternate routes many of those vessels ply when not in our waters, this would be a relatively easy thing for them to do.

But, even after it's been well demonstrated that our yards are more than capable of building larger ships suitable for BC Ferries, (since they've already done so, through a consortium of builders when the two "Spirit" class super-ferries were built ~ not all the work went to any ONE yard, much of it was subcontracted to several yards, supporting other coastal communities outside the Vancouver area), this Campbell government awarded the contract overseas.

The excuse that we are "pressed for time", and Flemsburg can do it quicker than we could, seems pretty limp wristed to me. I think it's simply a case of ideological pettiness on the part of Gordon Campbell. Demonstrating for all to see that he's going to show BC shipyard workers that they're not going to automatically get BC Ferries business. And all other BC based suppliers that their government, the one to which they and their employees contribute so much to in taxes, has forgotten where those taxes come from.

Now that might be a justifiable position for a 'global free trader' like Gordo to take, IF our so-called 'global trading partners' ALL had similar attitudes in regards to THEIR shipbuilding, and other industries. But do they?

The great bastion of 'globalised' free trade is the USA. But ANY ship that travels between two US ports, like Washington State's and Alaska's ferry systems have, HAS to be built in the USA! Regardless of how long it takes, or how much it costs. They look after their OWN, first. And realize the importance of supporting domestic industries that are of a strategic nature to their country's best interests.

Shipbuilding, I would say, is a 'strategic' industry vital to BC's best interests. We are a coastal country, and need shipyards that can do repair work, and marine construction of a variable nature. And we have them, and should be encouraging them. Not dumping on them the way that Campbell has done for purely ideological reasons.

And as to the Fast-Cats, yes, they were a sterling example of how NOT to administer any similar project. Of what happens when the 'second-rate'(at best!) experts we elect, try to direct 'first-rate' experts that know about ferry boats HOW to do their jobs. Instead of setting out clearly, and completely, exactly what RESULTS we want new ferry boats to achieve. And letting those who know HOW to obtain them for us get on with the job.

The Fast Cats had their problems, no doubt about it, including a choice of route where their wake was certainly one. They were faster, I had one ride on one, once, and it did shave a half hour off the crossing time. (Which we lost at Horeshoe Bay, when the conventional ferry was still loading and the Fast Cat couldn't dock!) And, as I said before, they were uncomfortable compared to what we were used to.

But we HAD them, two of them anyways, and while they were in service there WASN'T a two, or three sailing wait in the parking lot on a hot summer day.

There's certainly an argument to be made about "throwing good money after bad" in trying to solve their drawbacks. But if this government was truly interested, which it's more than demonstrated that it's not, in providing SERVICE to the BC travelling public, instead of leaving us sweltering in a ferry terminal parking lot, after milking us for every last buck they can wring out of us in fares, they would have got some use out of them first.