Won't these idiots ever learn...DREDGE THE 4KING RIVER, PERIOD. PROBLEM SOLVED. Money could be made from the sale of the gravel. Get rid of these idiots and replace them with commonsense contractors. The job would have been done months ago. City council better take a real close look at this catastrophy thats about to happen. Get off your butts and talk to the people that know. ---THE LOCAL CONTRACTORS--- If dredging would take place, millions would be saved.

right on giterdun

Exactly as I have said from the start.
You don't think they will listen do you?

Flooding is caused as a result of an ice jam. Prevent the ice jam and prevent the flood.
The ice jam is caused by the ice jamming up on the gravel bars at the mouth of the Nechako. Remove the gravel bars and the jam/flooding problem is also removed.

They simply just don't get it.

The pictures of the river when low spells it out pretty clearly.

:)

I'll re-read these comments when the Amphibex has to be brought back again - then I'll just smile and chuckle: We told you so!

What does everyone think the words: "in stream excavation" on the drawing means?

Owl.. We know what in stream exc. means but why is the city not talking about it. They are trying to cover their ass for the screw up last winter.

Owl you should know that the city has always disagreed with gravel removal and that this map we see here is from a study group.
I think everyone sees the "in stream excavation" on the map.
Judging from our leaders history noone thinks they will do the most obviously correct thing to do here. Thats why we are trying to "tune them in".
You can be sure the city will go for the diking and stay away from the correct method of repairing this childs play problem.

I never noticed those words owl..print too small I guess for morning eyes :) Good to see that. Hopefully it will get done before mid. December happens all over again.
Diplomat maybe the Amphibex should come equiped with a chainsaw this year.

:(

http://www.city.pg.bc.ca/city_services/emergency/icejam/misc/longterm.php

We all heard about the 14 month study a few months ago but when reading it again now in July and seeing the words "Next Year" at the top of the page makes me nervous to say the least.
Do the words Action and Now not flow nicely together?

Elaine... Is there any way to e-mail all of these comments to the mayor and members of city council? They need to be woke up by us people in the know. We may not be experts but we are a way ahead of those in cityhall that call themselves one.

I am an expert Giterdun.
When I was a child playing in puddles all my friends came to me when they couldn't figure out how to drain the water from their puddles.
Perhaps our leaders should try thinking like children and something may get done properly for a change.

I just read the report going to Council tonight on the City web-site which concludes dredging will have little net effect on future ice jams (or water flow).

Although I'm no hydrologist the reasoning seems to make sense...the water from the Nechako can only flow out as fast as the Fraser River confluence will allow it to. If this is indeed the case then dredging the Nechako is dredging the wrong river..to increase flow you need to widen the outflow from the confluence.

Side channels and such on teh Nechako will help once an ice jam has occurred but if the Fraser is frozen over it ain't going to matter much.

Again I'm no hydrologist but even I know it doesn't matter if you have the biggest, deepest, widest pipe if the junction to the next pipe is already near maximum capacity.

I agree that the dreging shiould occur in the Fraser as well. I thought that was one of the areas Klein used to take gravel from, just upstream of the Railway Bride close to the bank. The diversion channel will be useless if they do not dredge there, in my opinion.

I would like to see a map with the elevation of the bottom of the rivers as well as the channels.

The other thing needed are monitoring stations. We must know as soon as an ice jamb is about to occur AND we must be able to respond immediately with an appropriate method at that time before the entire thing starts building upriver.

Finally, nothing is perfect when it comes to thes types of situations. One must provide multiple systems to take over when the first line of defense is breached.

What I am wondering is why the channels are prposed to follow the natural flatland meandering river layout. Put a straight line or large radius arced channel in. The meandering type has a much higher probability of jamming up a longer and more difficult length to clean out if jammed.

I suggest the northern portion of the CN rails be followed.

If the gravel bar is removed there wouldn't be an ice jam.
The gravel bar is the cause of the ice jam and the ice jam is the cause of the flooding.

Childhood hydrology 101, rocket scientists need not apply

Using your logic then lostfaith.... where would the ice have to go if the Fraser is frozen (as it was last year)?

Not saying you're wrong but making the river deeper doesn't alleviate the fact the ice (and excess water) may have no where to go and may build up regardless.

My childhood hydrology in the puddles on my street clearly showed me that the junction of two streams is a choke point. You can only move so much water through one place at one time. The gravel bar may be an additional choke-point...no doubt there, but lets look at all the problems so we don't see this again anytime soon.

The dredging must start on the Nechako beside the park and continue to the Fraser where the water is in a fast deep channel.
The shaded white area doesn't seem to go far enough into the Fraser. At that point the Fraser does not silt up because of its quick movement. Like I said before, if we get a local contractor involved the job would get done right, on budget and on time. We are getting run down a wrong road by city admin. It's the Mayor and Councils job to see through this disaster and correct it. I hope they read OPINION 250.

Dredging? Ha ha ha . Is it to laugh. Just putting a stick in the river means consulting 26 different government departments and the First Nations too if modifying the river and it's flow is to be considered. Plus infighting as to who is to pay for it. Consultation, debate, all interested parties submitting briefs with their opinions. And on and on and on. Want it to be dredged? Maybe if you start lobbying everyone, you might get a definite maybe in five years. Just remember, if anyone wanted to build the Alaska Highway today it wouldn't get done as per above reasons. We do not live in simple times. Make a memo.

"If the gravel bar is removed there wouldn't be an ice jam."

Not as easily. But there still could be.

The river has a flow problem from the perspective of the human settlement which has occurred. Other than that, it has no flow problems. Without any influence from humans, it would find its way into the Fraser and no one would be there to care.

Over time, the confluence of two rivers develops a delta, it is a natural process. The addition of an upriver dam would have impacted the speed over which the delta develops.

The decision we have to make is whether to move part of the town to higher ground and let the river determine its course or whether we are going to try to overpower it by changing the river bed profile at a number of locations by dredging, or by dyking or by adding channels.

The only real failsafe method with one action is to move from the lowlying areas.

One thing is for sure, DFO will not intervene other than to enure that whatever is done will be done as environmentally sensitive as poeesible with respect to salmon. They will not be putting themselves into a situation where they are the cause of damages which appear to be becoming increasingly common.

So, it is not only the City that will need a report, but also the province and the feds.

Realitycheck writes..."Using your logic then lostfaith.... where would the ice have to go if the Fraser is frozen (as it was last year)?"

Surely Realitycheck your not suggesting the Fraser river was frozen solid are you?

Only the surface of the Fraser is ever frozen and the water and ice from the Nechako would flow into the Fraser and under the surface ice on the Fraser.

Just because the Fraser has surface ice on it doesn't mean it will prevent any other ice from another source from continuing downstream.
The problem at hand is getting the Nechako ice to actually flow into the channel of the Fraser. Once it gets there then off to Vancouver and Japan it will go.

It is in fact the gravel bars at the mouth of the Nechako that are grabbing hold of the ice as it flows down river and causes an ice jam.
If there was no gravel bar to grab hold of this Nechako ice, then it would flow into the Fraser where it would no longer pose any threat to PG.

See pretty simple huh.

Posted by: giterdun on July 7 2008 3:11 PM
The dredging must start on the Nechako beside the park and continue to the Fraser where the water is in a fast deep channel.
The shaded white area doesn't seem to go far enough into the Fraser. At that point the Fraser does not silt up because of its quick movement. Like I said before, if we get a local contractor involved the job would get done right, on budget and on time. We are getting run down a wrong road by city admin. It's the Mayor and Councils job to see through this disaster and correct it. I hope they read OPINION 250.


I completely agree

Owl writes..."One thing is for sure, DFO will not intervene other than to enure that whatever is done will be done as environmentally sensitive as poeesible with respect to salmon. They will not be putting themselves into a situation where they are the cause of damages which appear to be becoming increasingly common."

Don't be to sure of that, have a look at what's going on down in the LML.
DFO caused salmon fry deaths by the millions

http://fishbcforum.com/index.php?showtopic=49087

from that site, lostfaith:
"Gravel removal will begin on the Fraser River early in the new year in a bid to reduce the risk of spring flooding, provincial public safety minister John Les vowed Friday.

After flooding was narrowly avoided in the Fraser Valley this spring, the Ministry of Public Safety was given oversight of the controversial Fraser River gravel-removal program.

"Our sole motivation for removing gravel is flood protection," said Les. "At the end of the day, we don't want to be playing Russian roulette with the safety of citizens in the Fraser Valley and Lower Mainland."

And that will be the governing criterium here as well. And, of course, we will likely get others coming forward and syaing the same as there, it is those people interested in the gravel that want to excavate it.

Personally, I think we should move industry from River Road over the next decade at a minimum and widen the delta to where the river really wants to go and place dykes at that location and protect the upriver portion with dyking at the banks to at least the hart bridge.

Yes the gov is using flooding dangers in the LML to allow a gravel removal project on the Fraser,(AGAIN).
All this for someones personal profit.

However I was replying to your post regarding the part where you stated,

"One thing is for sure, DFO will not intervene other than to enure that whatever is done will be done as environmentally sensitive as poeesible with respect to salmon. They will not be putting themselves into a situation where they are the cause of damages which appear to be becoming increasingly common."

As proven from that site the DFO killed millions of salmon.
Thats how much they really care.

Gravel removal on the lower Fraser for flood protection is ludicrous. It has no effect on flooding.

Gravel removal at the mouth of the Nechako is absolutely the correct fix for our ice jam induced flooding.